Zoning in Smash

[Big-Cat]

This has been a topic on my mind for a good while now. I've been thinking about the presence of projectiles in Smash, their uses, and defenses against them.

So far, we've had a lot of projectiles being the old fashioned type of projectiles, some with differing takes like Link's Boomerang. We've also seen characters using items as an approach like Peach and the Links or all sorts of other uses. Then there's the extreme of Brawl that turned zoning into straight up camping in the form of overly strong projectiles (Falco) and others that are plain annoying like Pit.

That being said, I think there's all sorts of things that can be done with Smash, with some of the potential unique to Smash. Two areas in particular are trap placement as we saw briefly with Snake who also happens to be our first ever zoning character when you get down to it and controlling the y axis instead of the usual x axis.

Would you be interested in more types of projectiles and means of controlling the stage?

Don't forget that zoning also involves the use of all sorts of attacks to control the stage either to advance, keep control, or keep out. This can be characters like Marth with their weapons and disjointed hitboxes.


EDIT: Thanks for @ Amazing Ampharos for correcting me on this. I should have realized that and that was a mistake on my part. This thread was actually intended to be about zoning in general, not just projectiles. As such I'll edit the thread title and such to reflect a more generalized zoning discussion.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Good topic.

Personally I'm hoping to see a nerf to projectiles in general. Part of the reason they were so godlike in Brawl was due to the restricted ground and air movement each character had to deal with. With Melee's physics Diddy's bananas, Falco's lasers, and Snake's grenades are MUCH easier to manage. But obviously this game isn't going to give us the plethora of movement options we had in Melee so if this game wants to avoid making Smash 4 too campy like Brawl (please) then projectiles definitely need a nerf. I've always preferred characters that control the stage with their speed and/or direct attacks regardless...

In terms of different kinds of projectiles being introduced, I think the development team already has that covered. Megaman seems like he's going to bring a whole new meaning to the projectile mix up game, Villager's bowling ball drop looks like an awesome gimp tool against characters trying to recover beneath the stage, and we still have yet to see how Wii Fit Trainer's volley ball move works exactly.

We shall see what happens...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm really interested in how Villager's Pocket move will play into this.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'm really interested in how Villager's Pocket move will play into this.

Villager might be the most interesting newcomer yet strictly from a gameplay perspective... His Pocket move will be enough to probably neuter a lot of zoning tactics but at the same time it seems as though he'll be able to effectively zone as well with a lot of unorthodox Pocket/Bowling Ball/Slingshot setups.

He's like an anti-zoning zoner.

 

[Big-Cat]

Good topic.

Personally I'm hoping to see a nerf to projectiles in general. Part of the reason they were so godlike in Brawl was due to the restricted ground and air movement each character had to deal with. With Melee's physics Diddy's bananas, Falco's lasers, and Snake's grenades are MUCH easier to manage. But obviously this game isn't going to give us the plethora of movement options we had in Melee so if this game wants to avoid making Smash 4 too campy like Brawl (please) then projectiles definitely need a nerf. I've always preferred characters that control the stage with their speed and/or direct attacks regardless...

In terms of different kinds of projectiles being introduced, I think the development team already has that covered. Megaman seems like he's going to bring a whole new meaning to the projectile mix up game, Villager's bowling ball drop looks like an awesome gimp tool against characters trying to recover beneath the stage, and we still have yet to see how Wii Fit Trainer's volley ball move works exactly.

We shall see what happens...

Mind you that Brawl was/is an unbalanced mess and that Project M actively strove for balance. Not saying one way or the other, but I don't quite think mobility options are solely the answer for OP projectiles.

One thing that would be nice is if every character has a way to deal with projectiles if they don't have one already.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Mind you that Brawl was/is an unbalanced mess and that Project M actively strove for balance. Not saying one way or the other, but I don't quite think mobility options are solely the answer for OP projectiles.

It's definitely a combination of things but I think the lack of movement options + the slower pace were the main things that attributed to certain projectiles being so ridiculous.

One thing that would be nice is if every character has a way to deal with projectiles if they don't have one already.

Or in other words everyone needs to be like Little Mac.

But on a more serious note this seems to be what the development team is aiming for (at least with the newcomers):
Megaman can counter zone
Little Mac can dodge projectiles and quickly close the gap on zoners
Rosalina can block projectiles with her Luma
Villager can Pocket projectiles and use them against the opponent
Who knows what the Wii Fit Trainer can do? We really need more WFT gameplay. >.>

 

[Big-Cat]

Rosalina also has her gravity move. Villager also has his projectile moves you mentioned. Wii Fit Trainer is an enigma at this point. She has fantastic normals, possibly the best from a non weapon user. We only know two of her specials and their use, but the other two are unknown in their usage - Deep Breathing and the Sun Pose.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Do you really think projectiles are better in Brawl than in Melee? Falco's laser is crazy nerfed between Melee and Brawl, and Falco in Brawl is mostly still a top character (but not as top as he was in Melee) because his jab hits on f2 and his chainthrow is crazy good on top of a generally pretty solid moveset otherwise. I suppose no one in Melee has a projectile game quite as dynamic and powerful as Toon Link's and for that matter that Falco was really the only good projectile character in Melee (EDIT: Peach was okay too), but overall by far the most oppressive projectiles in the series are those belonging to Melee Falco with Olimar being the only character in Brawl who can even hold a candle to the way he can just shut people down by throwing stuff at them. Brawl's defensive nature in general is more about how strong blocking is, how strong airdodging is, and how a few nuances of the movement play out with hardcore defense being more along the traditional fighter concept of "run-away" and not "projectile zoning" with the best defensive character, Wario, barely using projectiles at all. There are a lot of good projectiles in Brawl, but none of them are just oppressive (except maybe Olimar in general though we can argue what actually counts as a projectile on him versus what's a normal), and Brawl's array of projectiles aren't really a contributing factor at all to its defensive metagame. Heck, the most important character to the metagame is Meta Knight who has no projectiles at all.

I actually think Brawl has a pretty fantastic variety of projectile characters. Link/Toon Link/Snake use complex arrays of traps based on projectiles. R.O.B., Olimar, and Yoshi have traditional projectile zoning games in which they try to keep opponents out. Pit is a flying disjoint who can hit wherever he wants with a little set-up which lets him both harass and attack in parallel at will (he's not just "annoying"; his arrow loops are the defining aspects of his projectile game which are subtle, deep, and technical while also not really being projectile zoning at all). Falco has a projectile that can't really form the backbone of a true zoning game due to weak stopping power and damage, but it does generally win projectile wars and is a fairly safe move to use so it's a powerful tool to force approaches and tack damage at gaps in the match (the "projectiles to force close range offense" model), and while a weaker version of it, Fox's laser accomplishes much the same task. The item based models exist as well which are really novel to smash, and Peach and Diddy show two incredibly different takes on that concept both very effective. Samus mostly plays slowly with normals and tether attack combined with super strong survival, but she has power move projectiles so the opponent is always at a risk of taking big hits and dying early if they fall into an attrition war with her. Many other characters like Mario/Luigi, Ice Climbers, King Dedede, or Ness/Lucas have weaker projectiles as well, and these are used in a variety of ways to supplement those characters' main gameplans while not being defining aspects of what those characters can do.

Smash 4 does seem to be doing even more with Mega Man, Villager, and Rosalina all seeming to be characters who rely very heavily on a variety of interesting projectile attacks in ways we haven't seen before. I definitely agree that projectile gameplay in smash has a lot of potential to be deep and interesting and to play out in a lot of different ways, but Brawl already did a very strong job in covering this with smash 4 seeming to keep a lot of what Brawl did here while already adding several newcomers who have yet more unique twists on the diverse possibility set that is projectile gameplay. So basically, yeah, projectiles in smash are awesome, but I think Sakurai already has this taken care of.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I think traps would be interesting projectiles.

Anti air projectiles (think like the Axe in castlevania games, or how a Hammer Bro does his thing) would also be great.




Something like the portal gun would be pretty boss

 

[The Real Gamer]

Do you really think projectiles are better in Brawl than in Melee?

As a whole yes Brawl's projectiles are definitely superior to Melee's and played a fairly crucial part in slowing the game down. I don't see what's controversial about that.

EDIT: I love how this thread was made at the same time as the taunt parties one, but of course people would rather talk about taunt parties than gameplay discussion... as usual. >.>

 

[DaDavid]

As a whole yes Brawl's projectiles are definitely superior to Melee's and played a fairly crucial part in slowing the game down. I don't see what's controversial about that.

EDIT: I love how this thread was made at the same time as the taunt parties one, but of course people would rather talk about taunt parties than gameplay discussion... as usual. >.>

Well to be honest some people just might not have all that much to contribute to a conversation like this.

Hell I'm interested in this but I don't really know what to say that hasn't already. Of course it'd be nice to see characters with more unique projectile options, and we're already seeing characters that do just that... As much as I'd love to say more, I'm not sure what else needs to be said. I'm sure that's the case for others too.

 

[Sun & Moon]

I think Megaman is a good example of how varied the projectiles are this time around.
His leaf shield is both a shield (duh) and a offensive weapon.
His crush bomber can force his opponents to either play very offensivly, by trying to pass the bomb back to Megaman , or very defensivly, when hisopponents try to shield and rool to avoid damage.
His mega buster is a jab (a very good jab for what we've seen), a tilt and a aerial.

I really want to see how varied projectiles will in smash 4. Hopefully none of them will allow a campy competitive environment.
BTW, I really want Sakurai to nerf Falco's lasers. They're so annoying.
EDIT:

As a whole yes Brawl's projectiles are definitely superior to Melee's and played a fairly crucial part in slowing the game down. I don't see what's controversial about that.

EDIT: I love how this thread was made at the same time as the taunt parties one, but of course people would rather talk about taunt parties than gameplay discussion... as usual. >.>

To be fair, they were discussing about what to do about parties because they are irritating and ruin the online experience in smash.

 

[lordvaati]

I think traps would be interesting projectiles.

Anti air projectiles (think like the Axe in castlevania games, or how a Hammer Bro does his thing) would also be great.




Something like the portal gun would be pretty boss

Yoshi's Eggs?

 

[Empyrean]

Falco's lasers shouldn't be nerfed imo. They basically make his character what it is now, an unrivaled threat in neutral in both Melee and Brawl, and unless all of his moveset gets revamped (completely unnecessary if you ask me, some Brawl changes should be reverted though), that likely won't change much.

As far as the newcomers and their new stuff, it seems like Sakurai has really focused on bringing completely original playstyles to Smash with this entry. Specially Megaman, he looks like he could potentially dethrone Falco from being the king of neutral/approaching, with all the stuff he has. The metal blade in particular seems like it will pose problems for many other characters, since it can be thrown in 8 different directions, basically covering so much space and options.

I'm glad someone made this thread. These boards were getting a bit stale lately.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Hooray, more interesting gameplay threads!

I actually have to ask though, what about people with zero projectiles at all? Namely, Sonic and C.Falcon? I know footspeed makes it easy for them to approach, but will momentum be back or will it screw them over?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

As a whole yes Brawl's projectiles are definitely superior to Melee's and played a fairly crucial part in slowing the game down. I don't see what's controversial about that.

EDIT: I love how this thread was made at the same time as the taunt parties one, but of course people would rather talk about taunt parties than gameplay discussion... as usual. >.>

I mean, it's just not true is all. Projectiles are more varied in Brawl than in Melee but none of them are as good as Melee Falco's. Insofar as projectiles affect Brawl, they don't really slow it down; the core reasons Brawl has a defensive metagame simply don't have anything to do with projectiles. I mean, just think about playing Brawl at a tournament level. How often do you have the problem that the opponent is locking you out with projectiles in a way that's really oppressing your options? I mean, sure if the opponent is Olimar it can be that way (though you could define almost everything Olimar does as a projectile including his grab so take that how you will), but by and large that's just not how the game plays.

If we don't agree on this, I suppose I can ask you to show what you mean. Do you have any tournament videos from high level players showing projectiles locking things down, preferably not involving Olimar? I can find you tons of timeouts and stallfests in Brawl, but it's mostly going to involve MK mirrors in which they just whiff aerials at each other, MKs and maybe the odd G&W planking or otherwise screwing around under the stage, and Warios jumping around airdodging a lot. I can find videos of Snakes using grenades and such to form actual pressure and could probably find some sick projectile set-ups from the (Toon) Link stuff (I've seen tons of it in person), but that's actually speeding the game up given that it's the kind of pressure that forces the victim to either counteract it or lose and isn't just making everyone sit around not able to advance. If I can see the gameplay you're actually talking about, it might be helpful, but my experience from playing Brawl is that this just isn't how the game plays.

 

[Seraphim.]

Hooray, more interesting gameplay threads!

I actually have to ask though, what about people with zero projectiles at all? Namely, Sonic and C.Falcon? I know footspeed makes it easy for them to approach, but will momentum be back or will it screw them over?

This is why I want perfect sheilding to reflect projectiles back, like they did in Melee.

 

[Big-Cat]

Revised the OP to acknowledge a factual error. This thread will also now be going into general stage control, not just projectiles.

To continue with a new question, do you think the game should inflict a penalty on overly defensive players?

 

[Empyrean]

To be honest, yes. I find that playing too defensive changes the pace of the game in an harmful way. When two players just stand off vs each other without ever engaging, the game loses a lot of its appeal. However, I'm not too sure how such a penalty could be implemented (maybe damage over time after a certain period of time the same way staying out of the boundaries does? Just an idea here, I myself don't think it's good). It would maybe be easier to just make characters more offense-oriented in general, in a way that it makes defending all the time a worse option. Of course, a few defense-based characters would be welcome, à la PM Zelda.

 

[mimgrim]

I think you should include a non projectile character who is good at zoning in your OP.

Marth comes to mind, who also happens to be one of the best zoners in the game despite lacking a projectile.

To continue with a new question, do you think the game should inflict a penalty on overly defensive players?

No. Defensive play should be allowed and should be a legitimate tactic. So should offensive play. The game shouldn't overly lean towards one or the other. Both options should be viable.

 

[Sol_Vent]

I think that having a penalty for being too defensive would be a contrivance. If overly defensive play is unappealing, it should be made impossible (or at least very difficult) in the first place through the inherent mechanics of the core gameplay.

That is, of course, assuming you're only referring to overly defensive gameplay and not defensive playstyles in general.

 

[Big-Cat]

My playstyle is defensive so no. I'm referring to overly defensive that just run away from the opponent and don't advance towards the opponent.

 

[Sol_Vent]

That's what I assumed, but "overly" defensive could mean different things to different people, so I wanted to be sure.

I think running away should generally be a trade-off, sacrificing stage control for safety. That's kinda how it is in Melee/PM from my experience.

 

[The Real Gamer]

If we don't agree on this, I suppose I can ask you to show what you mean. Do you have any tournament videos from high level players showing projectiles locking things down, preferably not involving Olimar?

I never said anything about locking characters down. My entire point is that a lot Brawl's projectiles help slow the game down to the point where many moments in various matches come to a complete stand still with neither side willing to approach and would rather safely throw projectiles over and over.

1:30

2:00

Practically the entire first 30 secs of this match are nothing but projectile throwing... The commentator said it the best "professional item throwing"

Little moments like these really make Brawl a chore to watch for a lot of people, and none of this even includes Olimar's shenanigans. Like I've said there are a LOT of different factors that attribute to Brawl's slower speed in comparison to Melee, but projectiles are definitely one of the main attributing factors in my eyes.

 

[Empyrean]

If overly defensive play is unappealing, it should be made impossible (or at least very difficult) in the first place through the inherent mechanics of the core gameplay.

That is, of course, assuming you're only referring to overly defensive gameplay and not defensive playstyles in general.

Yes, I completely agree, that is in fact what I was trying to say, but you put it more nicely.

I find it ironic that despite Brawl having significantly smaller stages than Melee or PM, it ended up being the more defensive game. One would think that with less space around, it would force people to clash more often and make camping more difficult. Though with those ledge mechanics, it's not hard to see why it's so easy to camp. You know there's something wrong when the winner of grand finals is decided by a timeout (and it happens quite often that matches end with timeouts, more so than the other games).

 

[lordvaati]

Revised the OP to acknowledge a factual error. This thread will also now be going into general stage control, not just projectiles.

To continue with a new question, do you think the game should inflict a penalty on overly defensive players?

Like Guilty Gear? not sure how that would translate to smash....most I could think of is increasing the stale move rate, but that would be kinda bad in hindset.

 

[Kef]

Well, Negative Penalty in BB/GG is not as much about being "defensive" but is more running away and completely avoiding defensive and offensive match interaction (which is a legit tactic in it's own right, ex. MVC2 Storm).

 

[mimgrim]

My playstyle is defensive so no. I'm referring to overly defensive that just run away from the opponent and don't advance towards the opponent.

Wish you had clarified that earlier.

However my answer would still be no.

The idea is to win. To win in any means possible that doesn't involve cheating. If that can be accomplished by just solely running away from the opponent then so be it. But I'm of the opinion that making it a "good" thing for spectators to watch should be low priority.

I never said anything about locking characters down. My entire point is that a lot Brawl's projectiles help slow the game down to the point where many moments in various matches come to a complete stand still with neither side willing to approach and would rather safely throw projectiles over and over.

1:30

2:00

Practically the entire first 30 secs of this match are nothing but projectile throwing... The commentator said it the best "professional item throwing"

Little moments like these really make Brawl a chore to watch for a lot of people, and none of this even includes Olimar's shenanigans. Like I've said there are a LOT of different factors that attribute to Brawl's slower speed in comparison to Melee, but projectiles are definitely one of the main attributing factors in my eyes.

I really don't see how the projectiles are slowing the game down, even with the videos you gave. It has way more to do with how the physics and how defensive Brawl is in general. It isn't the projectiles themselves that slow the game down but rather how the game works that make projectiles a superior resource, and even then the best character in the game lacks one. For you see, even a match without projectiles being used will also have standstills.

A much better example of what you are trying to portray to an extent, albeit with projectiles not willing being used that much, is this;

Jump to around 0:40.

Also, just what exactly is slow about the first 30 seconds of the video you showed?

Yes there wasn't any physical contact. But they were both trying to use the items to their best abilities to try and get in. Those first 30 seconds were very exciting. I suppose it just requires a better understanding of Brawl to appreciate. (not trying to belittle you here, just seems how it goes most of the time).

 

[The Real Gamer]

It isn't the projectiles themselves that slow the game down but rather how the game works that make projectiles a superior resource

That's basically what I already said...

Part of the reason they were so godlike in Brawl was due to the restricted ground and air movement each character had to deal with.

With Melee's physics in place of Brawl's a lot of zoning tactics become much easier to manage simply because characters can maneuver around the stage at a much faster rate. If Smash 4 is going to adopt Brawl's engine for the most part then I'm in favor of projectiles receiving a nerf.

Also, just what exactly is slow about the first 30 seconds of the video you showed?

Yes there wasn't any physical contact. But they were both trying to use the items to their best abilities to try and get in. Those first 30 seconds were very exciting. I suppose it just requires a better understanding of Brawl to appreciate. (not trying to belittle you here, just seems how it goes most of the time).

The part I underlined is one of the main problems with Brawl. Although I and many others call the game "slow" we understand there's actually a lot going on even during the campy moments when characters aren't approaching. It's just a lot harder to pick up on since most people associate fast, flashy, technical play with movement and combos. In the above videos I linked neither are happening, so a non-competitive Brawl player like myself is going to have a hard time getting hyped over two characters engaging in what I like to call "zoning wars."

Tl;dr - Don't take my use of the word "slow" literally... I think a more accurate statement would be that projectiles make the game LOOK slow.

 

[Big-Cat]

Like Guilty Gear? not sure how that would translate to smash....most I could think of is increasing the stale move rate, but that would be kinda bad in hindset.

I'm not sure either which is why I asked. I don't think it'd work in Smash unless everyone had a meter like Little Mac.

That's what I assumed, but "overly" defensive could mean different things to different people, so I wanted to be sure.

I think running away should generally be a trade-off, sacrificing stage control for safety. That's kinda how it is in Melee/PM from my experience.

It's generally the case in other games. I think though that even defensive players need to initiate some kind of offense, not just punish on block and run away which I admit to having a bad habit of in Tekken.

 

[Empyrean]

I find the item plays in Brawl to be interesting, to say the least. Specially ZSS' armor parts and Diddy's bananas. They essentially make up the entire gameplan of the latter, making him a character who focuses on setting traps and punishing the opponent who falls in them. In that regard, some projectiles shouldn't be nerfed. I also hope that glide-tossing returns, being one of the few good movement options in the game, albeit exclusive to item-spawning characters.

As for the Brawl engine being used, as much as I am against it, we can't really know how projectiles will work (whether they make things worse/better) until the game is released. I mean, it is significantly faster after all, so I think it's safe to say that characters will have a better time avoiding traps/setups.

 

[mimgrim]

The part I underlined is one of the main problems with Brawl. Although I and many others call the game "slow" we understand there's actually a lot going on even during the campy moments when characters aren't approaching. It's just a lot harder to pick up on since most people associate fast, flashy, technical play with movement and combos. In the above videos I linked neither are happening, so a non-competitive Brawl player like myself is going to have a hard time getting hyped over two characters engaging in what I like to call "zoning wars."

Tl;dr - Don't take my use of the word "slow" literally... I think a more accurate statement would be that projectiles make the game LOOK slow.

Aight. Misunderstanding on my part.

Although I'm still trying to figure out how the first 30 seconds of that last video makes the game even look slow. I can see it in the first 2 videos at the specified times. But not in that last one. That last one was exciting.

 

[Lozjam]

I think Links's projectiles should be buffed....... Especially his bombs, snakes grenades made his bombs look like firecrackers.... I think zoning will be a lot better, and dealing with projectiles, as from what we have seen, you can perform attacks almost right out of a roll.

 

[D-idara]

Well, you don't just play 'defensive' or offensive. For example, Snake's a character that can be played defensively even on an offense-oriented game like Project M, Marth's a character that can also be played defensively due to his great zoning and his counter...but the point of mindgames and reading will always be to mix up defensive and offensive tactics, because if you choose one or the other, you're going to become predictable eventually.

 

[DaDavid]

Although I'm still trying to figure out how the first 30 seconds of that last video makes the game even look slow. I can see it in the first 2 videos at the specified times. But not in that last one. That last one was exciting.

Agreed, that particular video and that level of item play in general tend to make a match exciting for me. I understand if people want to see something different, but then that's all that can be said about that: "Different" not "better."

At any rate, the general consensus seems to be that the best way for this game to handle "offensive vs. defensive play-styles" is to make both viable, which of course is easier said than done. Though I know it's way way too early to say, someone like Rosalina intrigues me because she seems to be suited to either. Luma obviously let's her keep her distance and be relatively safe, but there could be some very real merit to having Rosalina herself get in close to ensure more combo's using both characters.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

When I first saw Megaman I was like "jeez he's gonna be good he has a walking lazer with hit-stun" But then they removed the hit-stun. Megaman is looking really good still though. He's going to need to rely on his D-smash U-smash and aerials if he's going to be good though.

 

[DaDavid]

When I first saw Megaman I was like "jeez he's gonna be good he has a walking lazer with hit-stun" But then they removed the hit-stun. Megaman is looking really good still though. He's going to need to rely on his D-smash U-smash and aerials if he's going to be good though.

I NEED to see some more Mega Man footage. I'm still thinking that it's possible that larger characters have resistance, or maybe just Bowser's shell specifically. Not that I'd be surprised or upset if they removed the hit-stun altogether.

 

[Thunderfang747]

I NEED to see some more Mega Man footage. I'm still thinking that it's possible that larger characters have resistance, or maybe just Bowser's shell specifically. Not that I'd be surprised or upset if they removed the hit-stun altogether.

Perhaps it has to do with the distance between Mega Man and his opponent, like the Buster's histun is only active for a certain set of frames. There is quite a bit of distance between Mega Man and Bowser in the Mac trailer while in the developer direct when Mega Man shoots Mario they are pretty close together. Another interesting thing to note is that in Mega Man's own trailer, he does his aerial Mega Buster on Fox and there is no hitstun there either as Fox isn't hit out of his own N-air. The distance between them in that clip seems to be fairly close, but still further than when Mega Man was shooting Mario and this would have presumably been before the change if it had occured.

 

[DaDavid]

Perhaps it has to do with the distance between Mega Man and his opponent, like the Buster's histun is only active for a certain set of frames. There is quite a bit of distance between Mega Man and Bowser in the Mac trailer while in the developer direct when Mega Man shoots Mario they are pretty close together. Another interesting thing to note is that in Mega Man's own trailer, he does his aerial Mega Buster on Fox and there is no hitstun there either as Fox isn't hit out of his own N-air. The distance between them in that clip seems to be fairly close, but still further than when Mega Man was shooting Mario and this would have presumably been before the change if it had occured.

In the case of Fox, I'd say maybe they never did/do hitstun on an opponent in the air since that would probably be easy to use to gimp opponents. The distance theory is interesting though...