ZGD: Livin by a thread.

[Rizen]

^I hate the media, ads, "news" all that :[

So AiB finally kicked the bucket after struggling for a year
Anyone know good places to find wifi games?

I'm depressed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Isn't there an Arena Thread in this site?

 

[Espy Rose]

Thank god. All is Brawl was just... dumb.

 

[Rizen]

Isn't there an Arena Thread in this site?

Is there? I need to look around on here, lol.
(Link?)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Oh its gone for good? I'm actually not saddened by that. The past few times I have a taste for brawl WiFi I always seemed to just end up in troll battles in lag...

On the subject of Artpop, I actually do like some of what I have heard from the CD. I just need to listen to the rest to see if I want to get it or not. Currently I'm hooked on Janelle Monae's Electric Lady cd.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I lag too badly with players back in NTSC and PAL. Although it is the best...but better than nothing I got Basic Brawl online. Thanksfully the Japan side actually has competitiveness in it than NTSC ever could...

(I know...I actually touch that place for time to time when I really want to play...)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I was actually tempted to basic brawl because I wanted to play with someone lol. Although my brawl disc is broken so if I randomed on smashville I get disc error...

 

[Rizen]

AiB had a great wifi freeplay chat. Living in a often dead smash area where people are 2+ hours away, one way, made AiB a good option for keeping my skills honed and playing good players of characters my region lacked.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

It's nice when I don't have to face the Bat with Wings like 80% of the time. I hate that match up so much with my Peach and Kirby. I do better with Pikachu but it is still very irritating. I like Meta Knight as a character but a part of me really doesn't want him to come back to Smash.

 

[Rizen]

I actually didn't mind playing vs MK. I didn't really have any bad experiences with MK players either; I think if there's one character who gets more hating than Link it's MK. But I do think MK's presence ruins the character and stage CP systems. On stages like Brin and RC I can deal with every character except MK and I'm sad to lose those stages. Pocket MKs made some stages auto strike/ban that otherwise would have been great strategic CPs. Also MK beating the entire cast (except arguably Pika) means from a competitive standing it would be stupid to pick any other character.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I must really be behind the times because I didn't know Link received a lot of hatred other than Meta Knight. Link is always been a "bleh" character...

 

[KayLo!]

Also MK beating the entire cast (except arguably Pika)

I haven't even played in year(s), and I can tell you that MK beats Pika. It's not unwinnable (and might be the closest MU MK has), but it ain't even. MKs only say it's "even" because they want people to think he doesn't completely **** all over the metagame.

 

[Rizen]

IMO MK beats Pika but my MK's a total scrub and I can't say I'm informed about it, lol.

I must really be behind the times because I didn't know Link received a lot of hatred other than Meta Knight. Link is always been a "bleh" character...

It's something people won't see unless they seriously play and main a bad character. I could go on for a long time about trolls hating on Link like this
"Playing one of the worst chars in the game and expecting to get better at a developing game is just ridiculous, selfish, and stupid."
http://smashboards.com/threads/colo...-23-13-boulder-co.54708/page-741#post-9411713
^this sort of thing happens all the time. But this isn't the place.
People just need to respect other people and look at actual gameplay.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

And I thought Peach had it bad.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Living in FL, I still deal with ESAM but just on the eye test, MK beats Pika. MK even has the tools to make it worse but player talent from ESAM ususally makes up a chunk of that gap.

Also, FL has come to the conclusion that my Zelda is infinitely better than my Sheik however Zelda just has a hard time lol.

 

[Rizen]

Lol, a Pika/MK discussion on the Zelda threads.

And I thought Peach had it bad.

That sucks. I guess a lot of characters get mindless hate . I think Peach is slightly underrated. She's a borderline tier, I wish they had kept that as a separate tier, so she can win but isn't as good as high tiers. She shouldn't be behind ROB, lol.

On another topic, do you Zeldas think Zelda is better than Jigglypuff and Ganon? I play Ganon also and it usually comes down to Ganon can't really do anything when he gets shut down except outplay the opponent. With Zelda I feel I can actually do something, although at a huge disadvantage. I have to say Zelda>Ganon. I think Ganon can be a treeor when he gets going and people overrate that. If the opponent knows what they're doing Ganon never gets a chance. Jiggz IDK about.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I think Zelda beats Jiggs or its even. Me and Mink played a lot and I always come out with the W. It takes a special patience because it really depends on the Jiggz's style.

 

[KayLo!]

Wait, is Zelda dead last on the tier list now? I haven't seen it in a while.

If she's below Ganon, that's just.... cruel.

 

[Espy Rose]

K Prime and I used to do a lot of Zelda vs. Jigglypuff back in the day. I feel like Zelda has the advantage but results were always mixed between the two of us.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Nonono Kaylo lol!

Oh god I'd rage if that went down.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's our job to stop that from happening.
She's terribad, but not worse than Ganondorf.

 

[BJN39]

Lordy, if she went down then the smash community really would be going in the wrong direction... O _ o

What about Link though? Is she better than him? Also, the MU got changed to 0 on the MU chart a while back (which I fully agree about.) But what do guys think of the Link MU?

 

[Rizen]

Lordy, if she went down then the smash community really would be going in the wrong direction... O _ o

What about Link though? Is she better than him? Also, the MU got changed to 0 on the MU chart a while back (which I fully agree about.) But what do guys think of the Link MU?

Zelda's not better than Link. Zelda has a little easier time but Link actually has good tools (and terrible stats). There's always something Link can do, which is why Link/Falco got changed to -3 Link. Even in MUs where the opponent's character is a high tier and can shut other characters down Link can combat them. It's like treading mud though.
IMO Link/Zelda is even. I've played a lot of Zeldas as Link and vise versa online, there aren't any other Link or Zelda players in my region :/, Link plays spacing/keep away and Zelda plays get in and wreck. I think if a player doesn't know the MU Zelda has an easier time. I got wrecked by Zeldas until I asked Linkz (the Zelda player, lol this is like an Abbot and Costello routine) to help me learn the MU. I've gone even with Mocha and played several other Zeldas too.
(I thought I had more videos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FFv1v4Mjg0

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'm biased only because I go a romping and stomping me some Links.

He's just so easy to kill off stage. That alone kills one of his biggest strengths and that's his ability to survive many stuff. That and Zelda gets to live relatively long if she plays careful.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Honestly, I think Zelda is probably the worst designed character in the game.
I mean, Ganondorf is slow and unsafe, but he was built that way so he could succeed with few hits.
Link was very well-built but has ONE big, fatal flaw.
Jigglypuff had some execution problems, Rest doesn't really hit anyone and the new decay mechanics really hurt her gameplan.
But Zelda.... simply has a moveset that makes no sense...

She at least has some not bad matchups, and is somehow competent within the Low Tier, but yeah, her design is terrible (even though she's pared with Sheik, she's still VERY bad).

 

[KayLo!]

Zelda's moveset is so bad (and will always be bad imo) because she's conceptually only half a character, with Sheik as her counterpart. Sheik can sorta kinda get by because she got the speed and mobility half of the deal, but Zelda got the slow, "finisher" half, which just doesn't make a cohesive character at all.

Nintendo's always going to push using them together, not separately, so my guess is that Zelda alone will never be viable.

Honestly, the whole transformation thing (Zelda/Sheik and PT) needs to be rethought period.

 

[Rizen]

^At least Zelda doesn't get fatigued. Planking+fatigue is terrible for PT.

^^The thing with Ganon, like I said before, is when he gets shut down he can't do anything. Almost every character's jab is faster and will beat his entire move set and he has to approach with a huge hurtbox and very little mobility. Ganon's fastest ground move is frame 8 jab and 7 grab which has terrible range. Aside from Uair and Dair his hit boxes have little reach that doesn't include his hurt box. He gets good results and can KO in 5 hits but getting shutdown so hard really sucks.
Zelda's design might be bad but her stats (airspeed, frame 3 Dsmash, etc) boost her above Ganon. Brawl 'OldManDorf' got nerfed terribly . Ganon just MURDERS players who don't know what they're doing lol.
_______________
I think if Link plays defensively Zelda has a heck of a time approaching. Link can out-camp (except in bad wifi, lol), Zair shuts down Zelda's options well and Link's platform and bomb game give him cover from more than just to the side. Stages are only so big and Zelda can get in. If Link's aggressive he's just 'screw attacking' himself.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Lordy, if she went down then the smash community really would be going in the wrong direction... O _ o

I thought it kinda already did...

 

[Rizen]

Because it came up that her character design is bad, I'll ask here: what changes should Zelda get in SSB4? Also, what would you like her to look like?

IMO maybe weaken some of her attacks but make them faster so she can space with them. Specifically Fair, Ftilt. Maybe give her a jab that can be done rapidly like Pika's. Her Dair should be able to be SHed as an approach like Samus'. Less lag on specials and have Din's not force free falling. Not entirely change her dynamics but give her options to get in and attack quickly without big commitments.
I'd like to see her stay realistic like the TP model but better graphics, like they had Link. Maybe have her default be blond. A Skyward Sword alternet costume would be cool but I don't want her default to be SS Zelda.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I'm late on Jiggly/Zelda discussion, but i just want to say it's relatively even. it really comes down to the players of both characters lol. because i also have mixed results from both sides of that matchup.

Because it came up that her character design is bad, I'll ask here: what changes should Zelda get in SSB4? Also, what would you like her to look like?

IMO maybe weaken some of her attacks but make them faster so she can space with them. Specifically Fair, Ftilt. Maybe give her a jab that can be done rapidly like Pika's. Her Dair should be able to be SHed as an approach like Samus'. Less lag on specials and have Din's not force free falling. Not entirely change her dynamics but give her options to get in and attack quickly without big commitments.
I'd like to see her stay realistic like the TP model but better graphics, like they had Link. Maybe have her default be blond. A Skyward Sword alternet costume would be cool but I don't want her default to be SS Zelda.

I think if Zelda had a better time keeping people out it would help her...cause Sheik is the rushdown damage builder and Zelda is supposed to be the fortress/finisher lol

first i think Zelda's damage calculation needs to be reworked. i mean other characters can trade for at least 5% damage but because Zelda's big damage is only on the final *boom* she ends up trading for 1-3%... i wish they would consider reversing that so trading on multihits wouldn't feel so...empty.

I think her lightning feet moves (including Dair here) should have melee fub damage again or something close to it where i got something out of going up in the air and kicking cause kicking tiny/skinny people is hard x.x. personally i would like it if Fair were the weaker kick and had some frame adjustment so she could use that as an aerial fight move and Bair be the same as it is to use for kills, or vice versa. cause right now Fair is practically pointless in comparison to Bair.

Dins. no freefall. yes please. i like the idea of Dins being a setable bomb that you can put anywhere. cause its a poor camp tool, but a set up tool would be fun.

 

[KayLo!]

Obv I'm not experienced in character design, but imo some of her major needs are:

- Less multihit moves. Seriously, you can SDI out of half of her moveset, and her trades (like JZ said) are ass.
- Again, like JZ said, give her a different fair. I wouldn't mind a different dair either even sacrificing a spike. She essentially has 3 aerials that're the same damn thing (pinpoint power hits that do **** all outside the sweetspot), and as a result, she has zero aerial game.
- No Din's freefall. Seriously, why the ****.

Overall, her ground game isn't terribad, but her aerial game needs some major work. A more mobile Din's would be nice too, but I mostly would like to see changes to her aerials and inability to trade favorably.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Obv I'm not experienced in character design, but imo some of her major needs are:

- Less multihit moves. Seriously, you can SDI out of half of her moveset, and her trades (like JZ said) are ***.
- Again, like JZ said, give her a different fair. I wouldn't mind a different dair either even sacrificing a spike. She essentially has 3 aerials that're the same damn thing (pinpoint power hits that do **** all outside the sweetspot), and as a result, she has zero aerial game.
- No Din's freefall. Seriously, why the ****.

<3

her multihits make her magically different though, so i would like for the sake of originality if they could stay and just be harder to SDI and calculate damage different. or maybe give the knockout power in her smashes to her tilts so her tilts can kill and her smashes are damage builders. cause Utilt can already kill, add some power and reach to Ftilt and that fixes how wonky it is

Overall, her ground game isn't terribad, but her aerial game needs some major work. A more mobile Din's would be nice too, but I mostly would like to see changes to her aerials and inability to trade favorably.

probably cause she's supposed to be a killer, but its not helping her out much as is.

 

[BJN39]

Sigh, you have no Idea how many times I've thought of improvements for Zelda, here's some thoughts...

First, her multihit moves don't HAVE to be bad, they just need adjustment.

For instance, her Fsmash uses 35/45 style angle for the MULTIHITS. Like WTF. If those angles were changed to 185/-5 angles that's one fix, another is that the move CAN be SDI'ed, if the SDI multiplier was x0, combined with the fixed angles, the move would be unescapeable, then the move is pretty useful, isn't it?

Jab - In case you didn't know, the multihits weren't even designed to connect. AT ALL. Fix that and at least you have a better chance at a followup.

Dash attack kinda sucks and would need larger design changes to be useful, I don't have anything on that.

Dsmash and Usmash had IASA (Intererruptable as soon as) frames on these two moves to make them quicker. Just re-add them, and those moves get a slight buff.
Another note on Dsmash is to make both hits do the same damage, (in this case, 12%) which will cause that back hit to hit as hard as the front hit.
On Usmash, making the SDI multiplier on the multihits x0 will solve the occasional escaping problem.

Ftilt - The most important change I would make is to give the move IASA frames so it isn't such high commitment, and then you can actually combo it into Usmash on hit.
Another thing I'd do is the startup 2 frames less, it makes a HUGE difference.

Utlit - Give it back it Melee IASA, it makes it way faster. A killing reliability buff wouldn't be bad either, but it's not as important.

Dtilt doesn't need anything really, it's stupid good already. > w < Nair is okay too and doesn't necessarily need to be focused on as the multihits work fine already.

Fair/Bair - Re-adding the IASA from melee is a start, as then you can spam it quicker (lol) Honestly, there are too many data flaws with these moves but I'll dive in anyways:
- The sweetspot. **** this hitbox, the only cool bonus is that it can't be SDI'ed whatsoever. Lessen the Hitlag slightly, make the hitbox way bigger and locate it slightly farther out and it'll be pretty much better there... I guess.
- The sourspot **** these hitboxes too. The least they need is to have staple KB, the damage isn't that big of a problem as long as it has some KB to get them away.
- Other: The landing lag was nerfed when brought from Melee to Brawl for no apparent reason form 18 frames to 22 frames, which is pretty dumb. I'd reduce it back to 18 at least. >>
After these buffs the move would be at least useable.

Dair: The big thing that bothers me is that the sweetspot can't hit grounded targets, change that and I'll be fine. The hitbox is actually suprisingly big and comes out before the others giving it priority of sorts.

Uair - If it could be auto-cancelled like other aerials it would feel better already, that seems to be the only big problem with it to me.

Then there are simple things like make grab come out on an earlier frame (I'd say frame 9) and make her walk and run speeds slightly faster, and make her aerial mobility a bit better. I feel it would also be nice if Bthrow could kill nice and early and if Dthrow did 15% instead of 10%



Her Specials are another thing. If any of you are actually interested in what I have to say about them, then I'll write them up. They're all just so abysmally crappy data wise they'd need another post.

Wow, that was long....

 

[KayLo!]

They just need to redo her reflect completely. Just. Everything. Besides the fact that it reflects projectiles, it's borderline useless.

Any move that hits but still puts you at a frame disadvantage is dumb. What is the logic behind it????

 

[JigglyZelda003]

see that's why i only wrote a few things, cause i could have written a nice book about what i think would help Zelda out lol.

 

[Rizen]

It sound like everyone wants similar buffs to Zelda.
IMO, all Zelda's specials, except Din's which shouldn't cause freefalling, just need to be less laggy. UpB to start sooner, Nayru's to end sooner and transform to be faster.
Like most low tiers, Zelda could use speed buffs to most of her moves to get them at par with higher characters.

 

[BJN39]

^lol good point jigglyzelda.

Most of these changes are more so fixing glitches style buffs then they are changing her play style. But honestly when you make a bunch of useless moves useful, you're likely changing their play style too.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Man, I'd like to play as Zelda with those changes lol.

 

[Fuujin]

Imo Jigglypuff Zelda is either 0 or -1.
I don't have much to go by though because only Jigglypuff I've played in tournament is Thinkaman and that was only once.
I feel like if the Jigglypuff played super campy Zelda couldn't really do anything and it would be a -1, on the other hand if Zelda's in the lead it's super hard for Jigglypuff to get in in Zelda has the lead so idk.

Honestly, I think Zelda is probably the worst designed character in the game.
I mean, Ganondorf is slow and unsafe, but he was built that way so he could succeed with few hits.
Link was very well-built but has ONE big, fatal flaw.
Jigglypuff had some execution problems, Rest doesn't really hit anyone and the new decay mechanics really hurt her gameplan.
But Zelda.... simply has a moveset that makes no sense...

She at least has some not bad matchups, and is somehow competent within the Low Tier, but yeah, her design is terrible (even though she's pared with Sheik, she's still VERY bad).

I think Zelda was designed with the intention of being in the mage/glass canon archetype.
Strong magic attacks, long range, keep away hitboxes with slow movement speed, low health, easy to kill but can deal a lot of damage.
Her problem is they didn't design her positive traits very well and over looked way too many things, like Kayla said you can SDI half of her attacks, the lag on all of her specials is bad and her grab speed is very limiting.
All these negative end up outweighing the positives and you get a bad character.

^^The thing with Ganon, like I said before, is when he gets shut down he can't do anything. Almost every character's jab is faster and will beat his entire move set and he has to approach with a huge hurtbox and very little mobility. Ganon's fastest ground move is frame 8 jab and 7 grab which has terrible range. Aside from Uair and Dair his hit boxes have little reach that doesn't include his hurt box. He gets good results and can KO in 5 hits but getting shutdown so hard really sucks.
Zelda's design might be bad but her stats (airspeed, frame 3 Dsmash, etc) boost her above Ganon. Brawl 'OldManDorf' got nerfed terribly . Ganon just MURDERS players who don't know what they're doing lol.

A lot of the things you listed apply to Zelda, albeit to a slightly lesser extent.
She's almost just as slow and yes she has decent air speed but that's pretty much off put by her having the worst aerial game of the roster.
Having slightly better speed and better frame data is almost off put by being helpless in the air and dying like 30% earlier.

Her approach is Ganon levels bad and she can't get near campy characters easily (Toon Link, Samus, Diddy, ROB ((ones that actually camp her and know the macth-up, unlike Chibo. No shade intended, just clocking the tea where it needs to be clocked)) )
Her OOS options are too bad to deal with characters than can play really aggressive (Peach, Fox, ZSS, ICs)
Then there are characters that just wreck her whether they play defensively or offensively(Olimar, MK, Marth, Lucario, Wolf)

She gets shut down by nearly as many characters as Ganon, despite what the terrible MU chart says.

At this rate with the queens who gave her those match ups she's a lot more likely to go up rather than down.
Again no shade, but +2 against Ganon?
Like...really?

Because it came up that her character design is bad, I'll ask here: what changes should Zelda get in SSB4? Also, what would you like her to look like?

IMO maybe weaken some of her attacks but make them faster so she can space with them. Specifically Fair, Ftilt. Maybe give her a jab that can be done rapidly like Pika's. Her Dair should be able to be SHed as an approach like Samus'. Less lag on specials and have Din's not force free falling. Not entirely change her dynamics but give her options to get in and attack quickly without big commitments.
I'd like to see her stay realistic like the TP model but better graphics, like they had Link. Maybe have her default be blond. A Skyward Sword alternet costume would be cool but I don't want her default to be SS Zelda.

Better grab, Din's fire that she can actually camp with, Farore's and Nayru's without stupid amounts of lag and attacks that aren't really easy to SDI out of.
All of these things would make her miles better.
Her aerial game needs at least move that is reliable so she isn't a giant helpless pillow when shes knocked in the air.
Honestly I think that's all she needs to be a pretty decent character.

 

[Espy Rose]

It wouldn't immediately make her amazing high/top tier material, but just nerfing shields in Brawl would make Zelda much better. I'd argue perhaps even mid tier.