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Zero suit transformation - tactical discussion thread

NESSBOUNDER

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I've been learning how to transform into ZSS in the middle of a match, and by placing my right index finger in the center of the + pad and doing the ever-handy muscle spasm trick, I can trasform to the Zero Suit pretty much whenever I want without much trouble.

Generally, I can see this as being a good thing for tournament players to master (despite nobody using Samus in tourneys) because you don't have to counter-pick to change characters.

Say you start the match with a blind pick and your opponent just happens to be Dedede. Any Samus player in this situation would think "ohcrap. Chaingrab hell is a-coming my way".

However I'm pretty sure that Dedede can't infinite grab Zero Suit samus, and she's actually quite decent when it comes to fighting him due to her speed, range and ability to KO early compared to Samus.

Zero Suit Samus is also better at fighting opponents with reflectors, since her style focusses more on close quarters combat, though she still has that element of trap pressure that Samus excels in, just to a lesser extent (her aerial trapping ability is fantastic.)

Unfortunately, the transformation process takes a long time to complete and leaves you open for a while. Opponents can also grab your armor pieces, making things problematic for you if they knock you away before your transformation is finished. It's also hard to get it to work on the first taunt. Even with my controller-rattling method, I usually end up taunting twice before I transform.

So I wanted to make this thread so that we can discuss which opponents are worthy of a transformation into ZSS, what do do with her armour pieces, and how to avoid being punished for said transformation.

How to transform

This takes a lot of practise and fooling around, and some people may not even be able to do it at all if you don't have the ability to "shudder" your hand/arm muscles.
In order to transform into ZSS, you need to have input up + down taunt 4 times before Samus's jetpacks fire (for her up taunt). You can buffer it behind other actions such as an attack or charge shot blast to make the process easier.

When I transform, I usually drop a bomb or fire an uncharged shot first to help buffer the command. I take my right hand off the controller and place my index finger directly in the center of the + pad and "vibrate" the muscles in my arm and hand to put as many inputs in as possible. It's easier to do it if you tense your arm really hard.

Although the dojo says the input is taunt up and taunt down, you are allowed to input side taunts as well since the transformation process only registers the up and down taunts. So don't worry about accidentally pressing the other buttons.

If you did it right, Samus should interrupt her tuant animation and go into a crouch, then the armor pieces will fall away. You are invulnerable for a short amount of time during the transformation, but as soon as ZSS is visible, she can be attacked.

How to avoid getting attacked

The easiest way to avoid being punished badly for a transformation is to either transform right at the beginning of the match (you might eat a half-charged Dedede Fsmash or another powerful attack, but it most likely KO you from 0%.) or knock the opponent off stage, keep them busy with some projectile spam, then quickly transform. It's for this reason that I like to buffer a charge shot or bomb to transform.

If you can manage to knock your opponent off the stage, fire a MC homing missile, pause for half a second, then fire another one while buffering the transform command. This forces the opponent to air dodge the first missile, making it very hard for them to avoid being hit and stalled by the second one. You can also throw in a Zair if you're feeling confident.

The armour pieces

The thrown pieces of armour have more KO power than most of Samus's attacks, which is kind of sad in its own ironic way. Even so, if you can manage to transform before your opponent gets to you, then you can really use these weapons to your advantage. The armour pieces travel very fast when thrown and bounce off things like shields while retaining their ability to damage. You can throw an armor piece into the air, grab your opponent, then throw them into the bounching armour piece, then grab them again. There are lots of cool tricks you can perform.

Sadly, the opponent can do the same if they manage to grab one of the armour pieces, which also means that sometimes it may just be safer to throw all of them off the stage except for one, which you can then try to use carefully. Since Zero Suit Samus KOs mainly with her side B, it's quite possible to get an early KO just by throwing around armour pieces and using her specials.

coming soon: a list of characters who Samus hates, but ZSS isn't so scared of.

Oh, and don't hate her just because she has boobs. ZSS is an INCREDIBLY fun character to play.
 

Adapt

Smash Lord
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Thanks, but most of us have been informed.

Watch this video.
The vid was interesting, so the transformation is faster if there is a ZSS already present?

And he is trying to make a list of situations where it might be feasible to transform to ZSS (using DDD as an example) not trying to tell you how to transform

My question is: is there any matchups where it is advantageous to use Samus instead of ZSS?
 

Crystanium

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The vid was interesting, so the transformation is faster if there is a ZSS already present?
Both have to be the same color scheme, and one has to be Zero Suit Samus for it to work. This only works in Basic Brawl and in any team battle.

And he is trying to make a list of situations where it might be feasible to transform to ZSS (using DDD as an example) not trying to tell you how to transform
Well, much of what he wrote has to do with transforming into Zero Suit Samus. He could have made it brief by posting up when it is best to play as Samus or Zero Suit Samus against certain opponents. Much of the Samus and Zero Suit Samus community already knows this kind of stuff. (Or, I'd at least hope they do. From the looks of things, they do.)
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Both have to be the same color scheme, and one has to be Zero Suit Samus for it to work. This only works in Basic Brawl and in any team battle.



Well, much of what he wrote has to do with transforming into Zero Suit Samus. He could have made it brief by posting up when it is best to play as Samus or Zero Suit Samus against certain opponents. Much of the Samus and Zero Suit Samus community already knows this kind of stuff. (Or, I'd at least hope they do. From the looks of things, they do.)
They may know about it, but it isn't talked about very much.

I aim to create a sort of match up chart to determine what characters you should be transforming against, and how to create the best openings to do so.
 

Crystanium

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They may know about it, but it isn't talked about very much.
We don't talk much about how Olimar is a disaster to Samus. It's common knowledge. It's like saying, "The sun is bright." It's common knowledge and really doesn't need to be discussed. Besides, this would only be beneficial to those who actually play as both Samus and Zero Suit Samus. This leads me to ask a question: Did you post this at the Zero Suit Samus Character Chat?

I aim to create a sort of match up chart to determine what characters you should be transforming against, and how to create the best openings to do so.
Then I guess this won't be for me. Zero Suit Samus flies real easily.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Why should I post in the ZSS forums? ZSS can't transform into Samus mid battle without a smash ball, so the tactical application for this doesn't apply to her. If you start the match as ZSS then you're stuck as her for the rest of the match.

You can say "the sun is bright". But if nobody talks about what you should do to protect yourself from UV rays, everybody gets cancer.
 

Crystanium

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Why should I post in the ZSS forums? ZSS can't transform into Samus mid battle without a smash ball, so the tactical application for this doesn't apply to her. If you start the match as ZSS then you're stuck as her for the rest of the match.
Fair enough.

You can say "the sun is bright". But if nobody talks about what you should do to protect yourself from UV rays, everybody gets cancer.
"Everybody" is an exaggeration. I find Samus preferable in battles, and I don't think this is really necessary to speak about whether one should play as Samus or Zero Suit Samus, unless you're doing Wi-Fi matches. Even then, unless you're going against one person, you have enough time to transform into Zero Suit Samus, because your opponents are busy beating the heck out of each other.

Let's assume for a moment that someone who played as Samus, also played as Zero Suit Samus. Let's assume that this person is at a tournament. In that tournament, the person already knows who his or her opponent is going to choose. From there, the person who is playing as Samus can hold down the R button and become Zero Suit Samus at the beginning of the game, if he or she thinks it is necessary. Thus your information is rendered useless.

In your example, you chose King DeDeDe, because we all are aware (or I hope that all of us are aware) that King DeDeDe can chaingrab Samus. Even if you were to choose Zero Suit Samus, it still doesn't help. You can say that Zero Suit Samus has the advantage because she is fast. However, that only works for an ordinary match-up list that has not been refined by the latest metagames. It's common knowledge that the slow guys are quite powerful. It's the old maxim and cliché: "His power makes up for his speed."

Zero Suit Samus' disadvantage is her defense. Strong offense against weak defense means that Zero Suit Samus' odds of winning are slim. I won't say that Zero Suit Samus cannot win this match. I've done it once before. Please keep in mind that this was at the last minute when I had one stock and my friend had one stock. Anyway, I'll stop getting in your way. If you think that this will work, go for it. Just don't expect every Samus player to also play as Zero Suit Samus.
 

Villi

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I just use two thumbs to transform and can do it consistently on the first try. No drawbacks to this method, and it's easy as heck.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Dryn: would you rather fight Dedede as a character who he can 0-death or as a character who he can't even chain grab?

Zero Suit Samus is good against Dedede for a variety of reasons, not just because she's fast. She is also excellent at gimping his recovery because of his floaty jumps and size. If he tries to fly close to the stage, her Dsmash outranges his aerials and allows her to then spike him with space jump. Her primary KO move is safe and has excellent range, giving her the ability to stay out of his preferred zone of combat and still manage to get kills. She's excellent at pressuring him in the air due to her up B and fast, powerful aerials.

Seriously, against Dedede you'd be foolish NOT to change to Zero Suit, even if it means taking an fsmash early on.

And a lot of tourneys use blind picks.
 

Crystanium

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Dryn: would you rather fight Dedede as a character who he can 0-death or as a character who he can't even chain grab?
There are other characters to choose from, NESSBOUNDER.

Seriously, against Dedede you'd be foolish NOT to change to Zero Suit, even if it means taking an fsmash early on.
I'd play it out.

And a lot of tourneys use blind picks.
I've never been to a tournament, so if you will, please explain what "blind picks" means.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I'm making this thread with blind picks in mind.

A blind pick is when both players choose their characters without seeing who the opponnt chose. This is to prevent last-minute switches. So if you chose Samus in a tournament, and your opponent chose Dedede, you wouldn't know it until the battle started.

So don't say "there are other characters" because you don't have the option to change your character until you lose. Then you can request a counter-pick.
 

Crystanium

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I'm making this thread with blind picks in mind.
Like I said before, NESSBOUNDER, I'm not going to stand in your way. If you want to do this, go right ahead.


NESSBOUNDER said:
So don't say "there are other characters" because you don't have the option to change your character until you lose. Then you can request a counter-pick.
If I lose. :laugh:
 

ll Mafia ll

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This thread really doesn't have much usage...
I mean, people main SAMUS, to play SAMUS, not ZSS.

I mean, why can't we just look into the ZSS boards if we wanted?

And... comon.
I am not switching to ZSS.
 

0RLY

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Okay, so it's useful against D3... but who else? This isn't useless, it's just very situational. Some players just want to win with Samus and Samus only. After all, it's the name we want to hear when the Announcer Guy says, "THIS GAME'S WINNER IS...!". If there was an easy way to switch back and forth between the two... like Zelda/Sheik and Pokemon Trainer, then this would be much more helpful.

However, when I use Sheik, I never want to use Zelda. Even though it's "easier to KO" with Zelda, it's much more satisfying when I KO with Sheik. I'm sure this is how other Samus mainers feel. Pokemon Trainer is a different story. You have to switch, whether you like it or not.

Again, transforming to Zamus has a purpose... to whoop D3. If you can provide more arguments against specific character (or even stages), then maybe we can get like half the community or so to practice mashing the d-pad. Yeah, I know this is what we're supposed to be discussing, but I don't study many match-ups and I'm already fine with using Samus against half the cast.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Man you lot are lazy...

In competitive play, it's about winning matches. You have the option to change to a character with potentially better match-ups mid-battle without wasting a counterpick. Use it!

Zss fairs better against Wolf, Olimar, Pit, Dedede, Falco, Mario and Toon Link to list just a few. These characters usually enjoy limiting Samus's projectile-based gameplay or outright countering her.

Sheesh. Is it really so hard to learn to play one more character? I can effectively play every character save for the Kongs, Mario, Yoshi, and a few others who I don't like.
 

Julz

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I heard that Dedede could use an infinite standing chaingrab on Samus but can't chaingrab Zamus at all. Btw, what's the policy on zss transforming before the fight(holding the shield button)? Are you allowed to do it without declaring which character you're going to use?
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I heard that Dedede could use an infinite standing chaingrab on Samus but can't chaingrab Zamus at all. Btw, what's the policy on zss transforming before the fight(holding the shield button)? Are you allowed to do it without declaring which character you're going to use?
Hmm, I'll have to ask about this.
 

Crystanium

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Man you lot are lazy...

In competitive play, it's about winning matches. You have the option to change to a character with potentially better match-ups mid-battle without wasting a counterpick. Use it!

Zss fairs better against Wolf, Olimar, Pit, Dedede, Falco, Mario and Toon Link to list just a few. These characters usually enjoy limiting Samus's projectile-based gameplay or outright countering her.

Sheesh. Is it really so hard to learn to play one more character? I can effectively play every character save for the Kongs, Mario, Yoshi, and a few others who I don't like.
Be happy, NESSBOUNDER! ^_^ Today, I was brawling with Tenki (or so I think), and as I normally do it, the matches were two-out-of-three. I won the first two times, but I didn't play a third round. Anyway, the second match, I was going against Olimar. I thought, "Oh great! Just the person I need to fight!" I did not want to fight Olimar, but so far, I haven't lost against Tenki. Not one match.

Well, I got him down to his last stock. I was down at my last stock, too. When he lost his second stock, I decided to go with Zero Suit Samus. I transformed, and while I was doing that, he was busy using Pikmin Pull (B). I ended up winning the match. When I was playing this match, I was thinking about what you had said. I'm glad I did what I did. I don't know if it would have turned out the same way if I were Samus.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Be happy, NESSBOUNDER! ^_^ Today, I was brawling with Tenki (or so I think), and as I normally do it, the matches were two-out-of-three. I won the first two times, but I didn't play a third round. Anyway, the second match, I was going against Olimar. I thought, "Oh great! Just the person I need to fight!" I did not want to fight Olimar, but so far, I haven't lost against Tenki. Not one match.

Well, I got him down to his last stock. I was down at my last stock, too. When he lost his second stock, I decided to go with Zero Suit Samus. I transformed, and while I was doing that, he was busy using Pikmin Pull (B). I ended up winning the match. When I was playing this match, I was thinking about what you had said. I'm glad I did what I did. I don't know if it would have turned out the same way if I were Samus.
Ha! Great stuff!

I just think that it's something Samus can do to avoid bad matchups, and it seemed to work for you in this situation!
 

Julz

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I'm really liking the idea of transforming for armour parts at the opponents last stock. Even if you're opponent grabs one of the pieces, you'll still have two near you which means you can spam more than they can. Though, I need to think of a better way to transform. After practicing it till I could transform consistently, there were two blisters on my index finger :(.
 

25%Cotton

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perhaps get your opponent to near or above 100% and fully charge shot them > transform.

i can't help but feel that the transformation would be SO MUCH EASIER to set up if it was zamus>samus rather than samus>zamus :p
 
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