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Zero Suit Samus vs Snake

FadedImage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
487
Location
SoCal
It has been concluded by ZSS mains that the ZSS vs. Snake matchup is at a 45:55 ratio

If you would like to challenge or confirm this conclusion, please post in the above thread.
 

FadedImage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
487
Location
SoCal
The following has been concluded for the Snake vs. ZSS matchup, if you disagree, reply here

Snake
Pros:
  • Better aerial game due to speed and mobility
  • Can outrange Snake's tilts with Plasma Whip and Paralyzer
  • Can cover/counter all of Snake's recovery options
  • Lack of edgeguarding means ZSS should always make it back to the edge
Cons:
  • Snake's great punish game will exaggerate any mistakes
  • ZSS's light weight and Snake's heavy weight result in a large gap in survivability
  • Snake's stage control will make it difficult for you to approach and return to the stage from the ledge
Final Verdict: 4:6​
Matchup Advice:
  • On the ground:

    When fighting Snake on the stage your main goal should be getting him into the air.

    At long range, Snake's focus will most likely be on grenades. Attempt to avoid these and slowly close the ground with Snake. Shield and dispose of the grenades when necessary. Throwing them back will most likely result in Snake Grenade Stripping, which will cause the grenade to stop in mid-air and fall to the ground.

    At medium range you need to start looking out for boostsmashes. If Snake doesn't have a grenade in his hand, he can quickly close the gap by boostsmashing. To avoid this, fire off repeated neutral-b shots in order to discourage his dash-attack. If he dash-attacks while you don't have a neutral-b shot out to stop him, try to D-Tilt him as he's approaching, if you are in the air, try to chase with a side-b, you might be able to reach him. When Snake has a grenade in his hand, you are safe from such boostsmashing. At this distance, you should be performing short-hop side-bs to pressure his shield and hopefully get a couple hits to knock him in the air. Be careful, if Snake rolls towards you he may avoid the side-b by playing himself in the deadzone. Try to U-Tilt to punish this, if not, retreat (Snake will respond to any shield pressure with a powerful F-Tilt or U-Tilt).

    At close range, stop being at close range, this is where Snake thrives. Don't let yourself get baited into this range with Snake, he can easily Tilt punish you or trade hits by pulling grenades and letting you pop them. Trading hits in this matchup will only exaggerate the survivability gap, don't do it! If you shield the second hit of his F-Tilt, you can shield-grab him.

    Also, be vary wary of Snake's C4s and Claymores. They both take 30 seconds to disappear (the C4 will explode while the Claymore does nothing). A Claymore can be detonated with a dash->perfect shield or a D-Smash.

    As for other attack information. ZSS's D-Air will override Snake's U-Smash, allowing her to pass through it. Any attack will allow you to pass through the Nikita missile for a short period of time, a neutral-b shot is a good option here.

  • In the air:

    While in the air, focus on hitting with U-Airs and F-Airs to rack up damage. Avoid using the Plasma Wire, since a spike will only ground Snake and place yourself at the disadvantage. Keep an eye out for fastfalled B-Airs, it's a powerful move and stays out for a long time. Try to bait B-Airs and punish with Side-B.

  • Off the edge:

    When Snake is off the edge, it is extremely important that you chase as soon as possible. Most Snakes will recover high, so up-b boost a RAR'd jump and try to b-air him at the top of the stage. If you feel like you can down-b spike instead, feel free to do that as well. However, realize that if they are high on the screen when you spike them, they have plenty of time to cancel it and recover anyways.

    If they're recovering low but slightly away from the ledge, try to go for a well timed dashgrab to pull them out of the cypher, this is rare, but one grab can change the tide of the match. If he's at high percent after the grab, run off with him and side-b him, it's guaranteed to hit before he can c4. If he's at low percent, he's still going to have to recover from below the stage, try to repeat the process. If he's at mid-percents, try to predict his c4 and punish with a b-air.

    When ZSS is recovering, you shouldn't have much of a probably tethering the edge and returning. If the Snake tries to grab the ledge to hog, he just gave up his advantage by letting you footstool/jump back onto the stage as normal. However, if he camps just above the ledge he will most likely set-up mortars, C4s, and Claymores to prevent your return. Approach with care, a ledgeattack will most likely be punished with a grab or F-Tilt. Rolling will result in the same. Ledgehopped attacks could potentially leave you open for mortars and also F-Tilts. Ledgejumping could force you into the mortars. Try to find a safe time to ledgejump and down-b past Snake, there is a chance you'll get hit out of this as well, but it would most likely hit you back into the stage, and into safety.
Counterpick Advice:
  • Stages to Counter-pick:
    • Rainbow Cruise - Probably the worst Snake stage possible. He gets forced into the air and he can't control the stage.
    • Jungle Japes - Super high ceiling and lengthy stage. You cut the gap in survivability significantly and lower his ability to stage control. Be wary of a Snake getting the lead and camping a side platform (which disables your side-b). Japes should be considered a double-edged sword.
    • Norfair - The lava can force Snake into the air and the awkwardness of the stage doesn't allow for great stage control.
  • Stages to Avoid:
    • Easily controlled stages (Frigate Orpheon, Battlefield, etc.)
    • Low Ceiling stages (Corneria, Halberd, etc.)
Snake Contributors:
cycon365
bludhoundz
JesiahTEG
Thanks guys!​
 

-Ran

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Baton Rouge
Also, be vary wary of Snake's C4s and Claymores. They both take 30 seconds to disappear (the C4 will explode while the Claymore does nothing). A Claymore can be detonated with a dash->perfect shield or a D-Smash.
Claymores disappear upon death. C4s stay on the field. When Claymores time out, they disappear. When C4s time out, they explode. I cannot remember the exact timing, but my gut is telling me that the C4 is on a 42 second timer, or something to that extent. 30 seconds is too short for it.

Despite what people think, I honestly feel that Snake does average on Rainbow Cruise. Snake only has issues when the stage is climbing, and when it moves to the right before it has the solid platforms. If a Snake actually -camps- and plays smart during the ascension of the level, and rides a carpet up. [Attack him, and you WILL be shield grabbed vs a good Snake into a Down throw, which will result in obscene damage since you will have no where to roll. He can then shield camp with a grenade until you approach, or spam Mortar's until you get the 'timing' to approach to bait you into it.

Furthermore, Snake will be able to take advantage of the relatively small size of the Ship. F-Tilt, Up Tilt, Mortar, and C4 almost take up the entire length of the ship. The entire later half of the level with the walk offs prevent any gimping of the Cypher. Let's not forget the relatively low ceiling in the second area.

Needless to say, if you take a Snake to Rainbow Cruise that is aware of the layout of the level, who plays smart, you aren't going to win that as a counter pick.

I honestly believe the same can be said about the other counter picks you list. Jungle Japes always leans to the player with the better projectile. Snake has grenades, and thus can grenade camp one of the platforms. When ZSS approaches, he can perfect shield the ->B approach due to the predictability. If ZSS approaches the actual platform he's on, he'll be able to shield grab to Down throw, which SHOULD result in large sums of damage. The main weakness on this stage is the fact that Snake likes to kill up with Up Tilt.


Other tidbits...
-You say to Dair the Mortar, but the resulting lag will leave you open to a tilt, another Mortar, a grab, etc. You're better off Air dodging, or utilizing down B to change your momentum.
-I don't really see much mention of grabbing. When fighting Snake, it's extremely risky for ZSS to grab him. There's so much lag in the move, that if baited into a Grab, Snake can just spot dodge into an -easy- Forward Smash, grab, Tilt, or otherwise nastiness. In regards to grabbing, the best thing ZSS can do is Down Smash to Grab to U air, U air, etc vs Snake. Due to his heavy wait, this work exceptionally well.
-The first stock is the most important one for ZSS. She needs to rack up damage with the Suit pieces. I'm sure this is true with most match ups, but more so with Snake. When you have those three pieces, you're going to be able to pressure Snake, extremely well. Unfortunately, you don't want Snake to get those pieces. Snakes are used to throwing things, just remember that. One of my favorite things to do against a ZSS is to grab one Piece and throw it up, in tandem with a Mortar. It makes a rather potent wall. The ZSS will then rush to pick up the piece, usually resulting in a Dash attack, which leads to a Shield grab, or worse.

Just my two cents, but then again I don't win tournaments. =p
 

FadedImage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
487
Location
SoCal
30 seconds is too short for it.
Another Snake main claimed to have tested it, I have not tested it myself, but I believe his input.

If a Snake actually -camps- and plays smart during the ascension of the level, and rides a carpet up. [Attack him, and you WILL be shield grabbed vs a good Snake into a Down throw, which will result in obscene damage since you will have no where to roll. He can then shield camp with a grenade until you approach, or spam Mortar's until you get the 'timing' to approach to bait you into it.
Problem is, ZSS has plenty of room to be UNDER Snake in that situation, which is exactly where she wants to be. He'll be harassed repeatedly with u-smashes, up-bs, and u-airs from underneath.

Furthermore, Snake will be able to take advantage of the relatively small size of the Ship.
I agree, the ship is probably his strongest section.

I honestly believe the same can be said about the other counter picks you list. Jungle Japes...
We listed it as a "double-edged sword", basically, a counterpick that may or may not be a good idea, it's just to get people thinking.

You say to Dair the Mortar, but the resulting lag will leave you open to a tilt, another Mortar, a grab, etc. You're better off Air dodging, or utilizing down B to change your momentum.
The point is to d-air as he starts up a mortar, so that you hit THROUGH the mortar, into him.

I don't really see much mention of grabbing
It's not mentioned because it's not good. ZSS mains should know this.

TY for the input!
 

cycon365

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
157
Location
GA
Claymores disappear upon death. C4s stay on the field. When Claymores time out, they disappear. When C4s time out, they explode. I cannot remember the exact timing, but my gut is telling me that the C4 is on a 42 second timer, or something to that extent. 30 seconds is too short for it.
Just tested it

on FD, the C4 lasted 27 seconds going on the timer in a 2 minute match, Landmine lasted ~25 seconds
 
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