Zelda.

[Mangme]

I really think this is a bad match up for Pokemon Trainer. I would say why, but I wanna see what others think of it first.

 

[Trip.]

I really think this is a bad match up for Pokemon Trainer. I would say why, but I wanna see what others think of it first.

Mangme

Plz dont start a half *** thread when you are serious.

I spam.

This is a serious request, so give us reasons to justify said statement.

 

[Kith]

Water Gun her off the stage while she does Dinn's Fire :-D

 

[typh]

^ This man is a genius

 

[Mangme]

XD. Well, when I'm playing with Charizard against Zelda. Zelda's kick thing has a REALLY high chance of sweet spotting. Also, she can spike Charizard so easily, and can keep him away with Din's Fire.

 

[Bomber7]

pffft yeah, I'd just have Charizard bite off her head. :D

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Water Gun her off the stage while she does Dinn's Fire :-D

OMG!!!! Why havent i realized that???? Dude you are my new hero... lol
charizard is not that hard, stay on the gorund, shieldgrab the uncoming lighting kicks, and kill her very soon because of her weight... but its tricky to fight her... if you wanna fight with her on the air let it be offstage, otherwise you would wish you havent

 

[Kith]

It's all part of my philosophy...when it doubt, watergun lol

 

[-Mars-]

OMG!!!! Why havent i realized that???? Dude you are my new hero... lol
charizard is not that hard, stay on the gorund, shieldgrab the uncoming lighting kicks, and kill her very soon because of her weight... but its tricky to fight her... if you wanna fight with her on the air let it be offstage, otherwise you would wish you havent

Dude you are my hero.....lolololol.

Like any Zelda with half a brain is going to approach with a lightning kick when your on the ground. The reason it's so easy to land kicks on Charizard is because of bair OoS. You hit our shield with any kind of laggy attack and you eat a frame 5 bair to the face.

Kill her very soon is another brilliant piece of advice. She is excellent at zoning and getting in range for a chance to land a KO move as Charizard is very hard.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Charizard has one of the best KO arsenals on all the game, he has a lot of options and those are very well rounded in range,speed and power
i never have any trouble landing a finisher dtilt/ftilt/usmash on zelda
When i said the uncomming lighting kicks i was meaning any lighting kick she trhows at you, not the approaching lighting kick, zelda has a lot of better options, zard has a good oos game as well, and you dont wanna shield a lot against zard, that will get you grabbed
She is a hard fight, i agree on that, but not as bad as you think.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Water Gun her off the stage while she does Dinn's Fire :-D

well if she's half retarted she'll die from that. Otherwise, no, it's not a counter strategy. Besides, it only works for one pokemon and only if zelda is near the edge, using din's AND not paying attention.

anyway. since this thread was general, yes, Zelda has a pretty obvious advantage if the zelda user uses both zelda AND sheik.

Sheik and Zelda both do well against all 3 pokemon going even at worst. who you use depends on how the trainer is using the pokes.

 

[-Mars-]

I personally go

Squirtle- Zelda

Ivysaur- Sheik

Charizard- Sheik/Zelda

 

[Magik0722]

well if she's half retarted she'll die from that. Otherwise, no, it's not a counter strategy. Besides, it only works for one pokemon and only if zelda is near the edge, using din's AND not paying attention.

anyway. since this thread was general, yes, Zelda has a pretty obvious advantage if the zelda user uses both zelda AND sheik.

Sheik and Zelda both do well against all 3 pokemon going even at worst. who you use depends on how the trainer is using the pokes.

your unaware of how far water gun pushes and how easy it is to land every hit of it on a grounded oppenent. \

 

[Kith]

well if she's half retarted she'll die from that. Otherwise, no, it's not a counter strategy. Besides, it only works for one pokemon and only if zelda is near the edge, using din's AND not paying attention.

anyway. since this thread was general, yes, Zelda has a pretty obvious advantage if the zelda user uses both zelda AND sheik.

Sheik and Zelda both do well against all 3 pokemon going even at worst. who you use depends on how the trainer is using the pokes.

Actually, it doesn't matter if she's paying attention or not (Well, it obviously does, but not too much). Most Zelda's will Dinn's Fire when they're at the edge anyways, because they're as far as possible from the enemy. Hit them with just one pulse of the water gun and they're far enough to die from it. They're first instinct will be to explode the Dinn's Fire. When they do, they'll blink to their deaths. I do this often....really often. Even if the Dinn's Fire ends up hitting me. And even if it does work with only one pokemon, it's a free stock.

 

[SuorGenoveffa]

There's no reason in the world why a good Zelda would even think of using Din's Fire against Squirtle though, he's too fast and avoids it even more easily than other characters. I don't think this has any influence on the matchup.

 

[Kataefi]

It doesn't. Good Zeldas choose when they Din's very carefully. I hardly ever use it now in a match unless I'm guaranteed to be safe and I want to bait an airdodge.

Din's is generally used to bait the player into falling into another one of Zelda's traps, such as USmash or UTilt.

I have more problems with Ivysaur than any of the other pokemon, so I'll turn Sheik where I can outcamp and outspeed.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Squirtle:
-sheik tilt locks him and comboes him fairly easily for such a light chatrcter due to his high fall speed. and also ouranges, outcamps and normally outpowers the poor little thing. (if squirtle lacks a double jump and gets tilt locked he can't escape until about 70%-90% damage AND the lock comboes into utilt, usmash, dsmash, fsmash, nair or fair depending on squirtle's reaction when he gets out. anyhow, against a good sheik, a tilt lock should lead to a lost stock, or at least a nearly lost stock)
-Zelda is slower, so she has more trouble if she gets baited, but otherwise she can kill squirtle at ludicrously low damages. Squirtle is resistant to uair and din's which makes them less likely to be used against him, but zelda can still kill with fair, bair, ftilt, fsmash, usmash, utilt, bthrow and dsmash well. Also, dair is not difficult to land on squirtle's recovery and din's DOES tend to kill squirtle if he's dumb enough to use withdraw to recover

Ivysaur:
- outsped, outcamped and VERY easily edgeguarded by sheik. bullet seed works well against the fastfaller if it hits, but leaves you vulnerable if it misses. and if you are vulnerable, you will probably be hit. and if you get hit, you are easily edgeguarded. plus Vanish kills you at low damages due to your fire weakness. ivy has range and power on sheik, and is harder to combo than squirtle, but he's also far less manueverable and does not due well if he can't root himself to the ground.
-Zelda. can't gimp or approach as easily as sheik (but can still do both), but is far less vulnerable to bullet seed and can kill Ivy at much lower damages. She's not as good at gimping, but she can certainly keep knocking ivy off the stage. Din's is a decent kill move for once due to ivy's weakness and Uair kills at practically nothing. AND ivy can't outrange it.

Charizard:
- sheik. what is there to say? he's stronger than you, but he gets outcamped like nothing and comboed ridiculously easily. his slowness compared to others makes it VERY easy for sheik to play a punishment game. once sheik comboes him to triple digit damage (not hard) all it takes is one whiffed attack and sheik can punish with a hyphen smash or DACUS. it kills. and how.
-Zelda gets edgeguarded by charlie more easily, but more easily outprioritizes pretty much all of charlie's repetoir. in the air, there are few characters easier to lightning kick. charlie doesn't have very reliable approaches against zelda and his weight is more or less discounted due to zelda's aerials that WILL be killing him earlier than normal.

 

[Kataefi]

Is this technically a matchup discussion?
We could link bring this to the Zelda boards if we discuss PT next.

 

[DavidZou]

Personally i think ivysaur is a better choice as well. When i fight zelda; they usually play defensively and use dins to bait into an upsmash. The greatest answer i had was stay close enough that she cant din; yet far enough that i can spam razr leaf, yet you gotta stay JUST far enough so that even if she uses that lame neutral B reflector thingy; the razr leaf dissapears. Keep rackin up the dmg and chuck her off stage with a move, then BAM switch to charizard and ROCK SMASH!!!! I personally feel like ive gimped myself when i play against her with squirtle cuz lots of approaches can be shut down by her usmash and fsmash

 

[Onxy]

I usually stick with Ivysaur for both Zelda and Shiek. People were saying that Ivy can't out range Zelda's Uair, but Ivy's Dair could possibly have more range than it. Don't underestimate the range of Ivy's Dair, it's sick.

Shiek is a lot faster than you, but her lack of range is a serious problem. She can zone you and camp you, but from my experience, it's hard for her to start anything.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I usually stick with Ivysaur for both Zelda and Shiek. People were saying that Ivy can't out range Zelda's Uair, but Ivy's Dair could possibly have more range than it. Don't underestimate the range of Ivy's Dair, it's sick.

Shiek is a lot faster than you, but her lack of range is a serious problem. She can zone you and camp you, but from my experience, it's hard for her to start anything.

we aren't underestimating his dair. you're just underestimating her uair. it has MASSIVE range and since it's fire... it kills. it's also the strongest uair in the game. I think it'll kill ivy around 60%

Does that range even exist? close enough to razor leaf spam without getting hit by din's but far enough not to have it reflected. good luck.

ivy plays a good game at keeping sheik away for a while... but he can't keep sheik away forver. and sheik has fantastic tools against ivy. for one thing, a better projectile and amazing gimping.

 

[DavidZou]

to the hedgedawg since i dont know a thing about quoting but yea. Theres a point where they think ur too close to use dins fire. Im sure everyone knows how to jump inwards with razr leaf and fall back in the air right? Ive had tons of success with it so far where the leaf just dissapears a cm infront of my face after its reflecterdzz lol. And man, down toss + uair = dead princess. Ivy is great for shiek an all but hes prolly gonna be fatigued depending on how the game goes. I say squirtle aerials priority and speed wins out and when the % is high enough; go for the one hitter winner dtoss. I like to bait out attacks by running at them, then shell shift away and shell shift back for the uber grabber

 

[PkTrainerCris]

But zelda's uair has a lot of startup lag, you can just airdodge when you her hand raising, and you will dodge perfectly

 

[Kataefi]

But she'll bait you into airdodging and catch you off guard by uairing after. The thing is, everyone knows her uair is coming. It's a very predictable move. But that doesn't matter - only Zelda knows when it's coming, so she can mess up her timing to confuse you. One hit at around 60% and your gone. I think it does outprioritise Ivy's dair also.

 

[The Real Gamer]

But she'll bait you into airdodging and catch you off guard by uairing after. The thing is, everyone knows her uair is coming. It's a very predictable move. But that doesn't matter - only Zelda knows when it's coming, so she can mess up her timing to confuse you. One hit at around 60% and your gone. I think it does outprioritise Ivy's dair also.

Just in case anyone was wondering, it does indeed outprioritise Ivy's dair. I tested this out today w/ my brother.

I also didn't know that Zelda's uair was so strong. Easily killed Ivy at 60%... I'm shocked.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Just in case anyone was wondering, it does indeed outprioritise Ivy's dair. I tested this out today w/ my brother.

I also didn't know that Zelda's uair was so strong. Easily killed Ivy at 60%... I'm shocked.

that's for a few reasons:
-Strongest Uair in the game by quite a bit
-Fire type, meaning Ivy is weak against it
-you are normally floating in midair when you get hit with it. that puts you closer to the top of the stage and at least in melee you flew farther if you weren't touching the ground when you were hit

 

[PkTrainerCris]

But she'll bait you into airdodging and catch you off guard by uairing after. The thing is, everyone knows her uair is coming. It's a very predictable move. But that doesn't matter - only Zelda knows when it's coming, so she can mess up her timing to confuse you. One hit at around 60% and your gone. I think it does outprioritise Ivy's dair also.

My point is to airdodge when you actually see her hand going up, so you know she is gonna uair.. so no baiting...
I also used to believe that this move was so great, but then someone on these boards told me that, i applied it and now Im almost never hit by that attack

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

My point is to airdodge when you actually see her hand going up, so you know she is gonna uair.. so no baiting...
I also used to believe that this move was so great, but then someone on these boards told me that, i applied it and now Im almost never hit by that attack

<_< it's not a move that hits a whole lot anyway. you won't dodge it 100% of the time of course. it's a good punisher. it hits out of pretty much any aerial the oponent does and punishes out of airdodges and it attacks through platforms. I suppose you will dodge it most of the time if she just throws it out. it's used to punish when you can't avoid it very well or at all.

I'm not saying it'll hit that often, but, then again, it doesn't need to with how easily it can kill

 

[PkTrainerCris]

You are right on that, but imo it reduces a lot zelda's uair utility, because anyway any good ivy is gonna be over you ever... so all you have left is punishing, and ivy is not gonna try to hit zelda with an aerial at uair's range

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

apparently a lot of ivys think they can dair through it though

 

[DavidZou]

lol i just save the second jump and wait. When she comes near me i jump away and prepare for an airdodge or jump and use bair on the way down on her. I mean, whats the point of using that second jump to kill inertia after u use an attack in the air when ur flying out up there. If you were hit that hard by zelda to make u wanna use ur second jump up there, that prolly means ur already dead anyhow.

new formula
uair > usmash > dins; but all are = ivy ownage attacks
=(

 

[PkTrainerCris]

apparently a lot of ivys think they can dair through it though

LOL... dont worry, they will learn the lesson