Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Lil Puddin]

Gorls.
Do you know know know know?

 

[Lavani]

Ganon's probably better on 3Ds than wii U to be fair. the 3ds version had many changes.

3DS had no balance changes, it just has added content, five new characters + Trident for Ganondorf (Great Swords are better), and turned Wii U DLC into unlockables. PK21's likely talking Wii U anyway, I'm probably the only one here playing on 3DS considering Legends doesn't release stateside until late March.

I felt like Ganon was slow and bad when I first played him, but...he really isn't. He hits like a freight train, destroys rooms as well as bosses, and still juggles generals super well while doing a lot more damage per hit than Sheik does. His combos stop feeling slow when you start dodge canceling. Who even cares about Sheik's special when Ganondorf's C1 and C6 exist?

The only real draw I feel to Sheik is Serenade of Water, but if you aren't getting hit anyway a shield doesn't mean much.

 

[Cress!]

I'd probably like Ghirahim more if I could figure how to/if he were capable of smashing giant boss WPGs in one go. He's fun though, and feels pretty good at anything else you'd want a character to do.

Lock on with C1 and then do the first 2 hits of C4 2 times and then do another 1 or 2 weak attacks. Works for me.
Actually Lavani I was just playing as Ghirahim, C1 into 2 full C3's breaks Giant Boss WPG's faster, use that instead.

You're really saying Ganon>shiek? I feel like this is a SSB4 discussion, lol. Ganon is extremely slow in both attacks and movement while sheik's attacks and movement are fast, flow together and she has the best super in the game with huge reach all around her. Harp is amazingly versatile and non-committing. Try doing ganon's lv 2 or 3 sword missions in adventure, he's really slow. You have to be very precise in movement planning. He's great vs bosses though.

(tbh Ganonforf is one of the ones I don't agree with but I'll explain anyways.)
Most people make tier lists assuming they have optimal skills. And by optimal skills, I mean Hasty Attacks. Hasty Ganondorf is a completely different character from regular Ganondork. He has about the same amount of speed as Ghirahim with Hasty, or at least that how fast it feels. Also Ganondorf has gotten more buffs from updates than anyone else iirc. (And by buffs, I mean more invincibility on his slower attacks.)
Also I REALLY can't agree with Sheik's special being the best in the game. The range is decent, but it's probably the second weakest in the game (weakest being Ruto. Poor Ruto.) Meanwhile Twili Midna's special is basically the same except it deals way more damage, and her C1 is even better than her special since it's faster to use/fill, deals more damage, has more range, etc.

 

[Lavani]

Ruto's special is her C6 tidal wave and nobody will tell me otherwise.

That yellow bar is just there to look pretty and doesn't actually do anything.

 

[Furret]

Gorls.
Do you know know know know?

wait, is that the guy who does the kazoo covers?

yep...

 

[Ffamran]

Goddamn, Modest Mouse's songs are awesome.

 

[Lil Puddin]

wait, is that the guy who does the kazoo covers?

yep...

He is known to play special kazoos with strings on them, you know?

 

[Rizen]

Lock on with C1 and then do the first 2 hits of C4 2 times and then do another 1 or 2 weak attacks. Works for me.
Actually Lavani I was just playing as Ghirahim, C1 into 2 full C3's breaks Giant Boss WPG's faster, use that instead.

(tbh Ganonforf is one of the ones I don't agree with but I'll explain anyways.)
Most people make tier lists assuming they have optimal skills. And by optimal skills, I mean Hasty Attacks. Hasty Ganondorf is a completely different character from regular Ganondork. He has about the same amount of speed as Ghirahim with Hasty, or at least that how fast it feels. Also Ganondorf has gotten more buffs from updates than anyone else iirc. (And by buffs, I mean more invincibility on his slower attacks.)
Also I REALLY can't agree with Sheik's special being the best in the game. The range is decent, but it's probably the second weakest in the game (weakest being Ruto. Poor Ruto.) Meanwhile Twili Midna's special is basically the same except it deals way more damage, and her C1 is even better than her special since it's faster to use/fill, deals more damage, has more range, etc.

Yeah it felt like we were talking about different games. I don't think the wii u version has hasty attacks.
I still think Sheik's super is great, it has the biggest circle radius AND diameter (joke there)! It also hits 3 times iirc so it can easily clear a fort and take out the captain (sorry I can't remember the terminology) as he appears. It also sucks enemies in for ez followups.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't know... I just don't know.

Yeah it felt like we were talking about different games. I don't think the wii u version has hasty attacks.
I still think Sheik's super is great, it has the biggest circle radius AND diameter (joke there)! It also hits 3 times iirc so it can easily clear a fort and take out the captain (sorry I can't remember the terminology) as he appears. It also sucks enemies in for ez followups.

Speaking of Hyrule Warriors, wasn't Zant's weak point smash bad because of how chaotic it was?

 

[Lavani]

Actually Lavani I was just playing as Ghirahim, C1 into 2 full C3's breaks Giant Boss WPG's faster, use that instead.

mrgrgr

I need Stamina Fruit III for this I think, King Dodongo still had one slice left ;_;

 

[Rizen]

I don't know... I just don't know.

Speaking of Hyrule Warriors, wasn't Zant's weak point smash bad because of how chaotic it was?

WTF?


I don't remember it doing much less damage but I could be wrong.

 

[Cress!]

Yeah it felt like we were talking about different games. I don't think the wii u version has hasty attacks.

...Yes it does, it was added a year ago. .-. I don't have the 3DS version, nor could I even play it if I had the game because region locking yay. (That's probably the first time in my life I've used the word nor.)

 

[Ffamran]

I don't remember it doing much less damage but I could be wrong.

I meant it not hitting because of how he spins around unlike other ones where they focus on hitting one enemy.

 

[EODM07]

Evening girls. How's everyone doing?

Just been to University today for a Tutorial. My mother went with me and we took the train to get there. Got delayed due to certain events happening too.

But I made it in the end, and it was REALLY fun. My tutor is looking forward to working with me in the future. :D

Spoiler: Yuri pic of the day~

 

[Furret]

Evening girls. How's everyone doing?

being happily alone
maybe I shouldn't be who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[McKnightlíght]

I started working on my cover of "Hey Ya". It will be spectacular.

 

[Y2Kay]

i just JV2'd a Sheik with greninja

WHAT IS GOING ON?

 

[EODM07]

i just JV2'd a Sheik with greninja

WHAT IS GOING ON?

Sheik is actually trash.

Or you actually fought Zelda.

 

[Y2Kay]

Sheik is actually trash.

Or you actually fought Zelda.

I have JV2'd many zeldas in my day. Sheik's a first

 

[Koiba]

Random thoughts of the day:



The Kirby Right Back at Ya dub sounded alot better when I watched it in grade 4


I didn't know there was a MissingNo. emote before


Bayonetta's really fun to play as


Phoniex mode in Fates is more brain dead than Mario's utilts, Hoohah, and prepatch Luigi's down throw combined






There

 

[Antonykun]

can we talk about the bulbasaur emote?

it looks like the average Zelda main after finding out she didn't get buffed

 

[Lavani]

On Ch9 Nohr of Fates.
Reworked weapon mechanics are interesting. Using iron weapons as the baseline and adding tradeoffs to other weapons is a nice touch. Javelin/Hand Axe being limited with "no double, no crit, no skills, more likely to be doubled" turns them from an easy go-to to a situational ranged weapon, and Nosferatu being hit similarly makes other magic choices still worthwhile for mages.
I'm still a bit unsure about the new weapon triangle. At first I was skeptical, then I liked it, now I'm just questioning why my archer has high res and paper def but is disadvantaged against tomes (and swords) anyway.

Halfway through the Master Quest adventure mode map in HWL. Went for Cia's lv3 weapon in the top left, found out two tiles away that I need to play a Darunia only map (who I still only have lv1 Hammer for) and now I'm just totally bleh about it. I got lv3 weps for Midna, Ganon (swords), and Linkle on the way there though, so it wasn't a total loss.

can we talk about the bulbasaur emote?

it looks like the average Zelda main after finding out she didn't get buffed

I love the pokemon emotes

they're so bad

 

[Antonykun]

I love the pokemon emotes

they're so bad

at the very least they give aout all sorts of funny expressions

 

[Lavani]

"I have the mumps."

 

[thatsmash4modder]

Hi everyone! I noticed you guys saw my videos, and as a Zelda player, I was wondering what kind of buffs you'd give her if you were running the balance patches? I've made some patches but I'm not a very good Zelda player so I don't know exactly what she needs to be balanced (I'm aiming for Mario-tier, ideally). I'd love for Zelda to be the first properly balanced character I make, so any suggestions you have would be more than welcome!

 

[Furret]

Hi everyone! I noticed you guys saw my videos, and as a Zelda player, I was wondering what kind of buffs you'd give her if you were running the balance patches? I've made some patches but I'm not a very good Zelda player so I don't know exactly what she needs to be balanced (I'm aiming for Mario-tier, ideally). I'd love for Zelda to be the first properly balanced character I make, so any suggestions you have would be more than welcome!

if I did anything I'd give zelda an ftilt

 

[Antonykun]

Hi everyone! I noticed you guys saw my videos, and as a Zelda player, I was wondering what kind of buffs you'd give her if you were running the balance patches? I've made some patches but I'm not a very good Zelda player so I don't know exactly what she needs to be balanced (I'm aiming for Mario-tier, ideally). I'd love for Zelda to be the first properly balanced character I make, so any suggestions you have would be more than welcome!

not a zleda main but i would think it would be a good idea if F-air and B-air were differentiated somehow
like if F-air as way weaker but could be hit-confirmed by d-tilt.
Also make phantom be storeable and/or reduce endlag that move does not deserve to be terrible

 

[thatsmash4modder]

if I did anything I'd give zelda an ftilt

I take it you're talking about how it comes out slower than Ganondorf's?

not a zleda main but i would think it would be a good idea if F-air and B-air were differentiated somehow
like if F-air as way weaker but could be hit-confirmed by d-tilt.
Also make phantom be storeable and/or reduce endlag that move does not deserve to be terrible

I could make her bair be one big hitbox instead of a sweetspot and sourspot, more like Mario's?
I like the idea of dtilt -> fair as a kill combo though.
Phantom being storable would make it a bit too powerful of a move IMO, as it's got a huge hitbox that drags outwards. I can make it charge faster and have less endlag though.

 

[BJN39]

Hi everyone! I noticed you guys saw my videos, and as a Zelda player, I was wondering what kind of buffs you'd give her if you were running the balance patches? I've made some patches but I'm not a very good Zelda player so I don't know exactly what she needs to be balanced (I'm aiming for Mario-tier, ideally). I'd love for Zelda to be the first properly balanced character I make, so any suggestions you have would be more than welcome!

Heavens, where to start? IDK what you may have already implemented, so I'll just go around. I have the actual data to look over, and I've thought about how exactly some of these changes could be done before.

She runs like a snail. I would beg for her to be able to run as fast as Link or Peach.

In general Zelda could appreciate some endlag reductions. Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, NAir, and the landing lag of all of her aerials could use a few frames cut off the end. Other moves getting endlag buffs are more of a luxury, because their endlag is either good enough already, (Jab/Dtilt/Utilt) more of a characteristic of the move, (Dash Attack) or more needs to be addressed first. (FAir/BAir/UAir)

Don't do anything to Din's fire. Or, don't bother with it. The move is just so bad that too much needs to be addressed, and the move will still be subpar. Of course everyone would like to actually see what it would be like to have no freefall~

Farore's Wind could have the grounded hit 1 angle changed to 90 from 91, which would make DI LESS effective, but I don't think it would really do much to prevent escaping. FW really isn't the problem.

ALL grabs' endlag is unnecessarily high. A few frames off of each would be fair and not overpowering.

Dthrow's KB stats could be alteredfrom 85/55 BKB/KBG to 92/45 ish, to make it have a bit more stun, and the combos could last a bit later.

Aerials all need several things tbh, but a good start would be larger side aerial sweetspots (Probably size changed from 1.9 to like, 2.3 would be good. EDIT: I would also say a minor size increase on the outermost sour-spot would be good too, like from 5.0 to 5.7 or so.) and a KB increase on her side aerials' KB (Probably some BKB.) I'd love to see UAir get a small KB increase personally, but some tests might have to be done as to HOW MUCH if both this and Dthrow were buffed as mentioned.

Phantom Slash is mostly QoL stuff. The full charged variation has an issue where if you hit near the edge of the first hit, the second hit misses. It also doesn't connect both hits on shield if the opponent tries to roll or spotdodge. For the 2 hit thing, a higher angle on hit 1 should be a good start. Like, from 62 degrees, to 80 degrees. Reducing the hitlag on hit 1 COULD be the way to fix the shield hitting issue. (Currently it has x2 hitlag. Bringing it down to x1.5 may work as well as keep the 'design' of the hit. I recommend testing around with the hitlag, as well as adding a tiny bit of shield damage to see what could work.)

I may have other thoughts, but I realize this post is getting major. These are some simpler recommendations I would recommend to help her.

 

[McKnightlíght]

Zelda should have light arrows instead of Din's Fire for the side B. Screw Din, no one likes her anyway.

 

[EODM07]

Btw girls. That one salty person on Miiverse replied to me again.

Saying that me and Cress! don't know anything about sodium or salt, and then mentioned his phallic symbol. So I reported him for Sexually Explicit content.

Ain't having any of that muck on Miiverse! >:C (Sorry girls. I don't have a saved image of his comment. :V)

 

[Rizen]

Hi thatsmash4modder , I like your videos. Is it possible to hack the Wii U now?

 

[FullMoon]

PSA: Deadpool is an amazing movie go watch it now.

 

[buzzard]

It think it would be good if Zelda had super armor/intangibility frames when Farore's Wind 1 hitboxes are out so characters who are always throwing attacks with low startup can't cancel the elevator combo when they get hit.

 

[thatsmash4modder]

I may have other thoughts, but I realize this post is getting major. These are some simpler recommendations I would recommend to help her.

That was amazingly thorough. I don't know how run speed works (yet!), but the rest is all stuff I can do! The only thing I'd say is that you're not buffing her enough, but I'll do what I can with those changes and see how she plays afterwards.

Hi thatsmash4modder , I like your videos. Is it possible to hack the Wii U now?

I'm glad you like my videos! It is possible, I just don't have a Wii U to load homebrew on. But I'll get one eventually!

It think it would be good if Zelda had super armor/intangibility frames when Farore's Wind 1 hitboxes are out so characters who are always throwing attacks with low startup can't cancel the elevator combo when they get hit.

I like super armour on startup, I just worry about balance. It'd make escaping pretty easy.

 

[LonkQ]

I'd like Zelda's grab to be faster. Why is it so slow? It's not even like Bowser's that grabs you from a gorillion miles away and comes attached to a character with a fast dash.

 

[buzzard]

I like super armour on startup, I just worry about balance. It'd make escaping pretty easy.

There is light armor in the game I think, that would help stop things like ZSS, Mac or C. Falcon throwing jabs and cancelling the combo, but it would not stop something like an attempt to hit her offstage with a meteor while she is suffering the startup lag.

 

[BJN39]

That was amazingly thorough. I don't know how run speed works (yet!), but the rest is all stuff I can do! The only thing I'd say is that you're not buffing her enough, but I'll do what I can with those changes and see how she plays afterwards.

Yeah I mean, she could be buffed in a bazillion ways really. I could easily go over each move describing ways to buff every single move, but I think there's some merit to not making EVERY move 'perfect.'

Project M Zelda lost some of her character when her entire moveset was finely tuned in every aspect and everything was perfectly rounded. Honestly a better design philosophy imo is for everyone to be 'bad' instead of buffing everything,

I mean, I have more ideas I'd pitch, but I didn't want to overload you with things immediately, lol.

 

[Ffamran]

Zelda should have light arrows instead of Din's Fire for the side B. Screw Din, no one likes her anyway.

*plop* From the Marth general discussion since I somehow involved Zelda there...

I think maybe Zelda should go English longbow. I believe that's the bow commonly associated with this sort of shooting.

Why? The Links cover the sort of sniping style of shooting, a more linear and gravity-affected archery form and the Pits cover a more free-form style of shooting. Zelda going either of their routes work, but Zelda shooting like that would be another style, one that's kind of like an anti-air and calculated style of shooting befit of the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom.

Obviously, not going to be as extreme as Hyrule Warriors or Warriors games in general, but maybe Zelda could work her "Silver Arrow", let's call it that to not make it the same as "Light Arrow", her Final Smash. Light Bow could work, but... Anyway, functionality is that perhaps Zelda could hold the button down to charge/alter the distance her arrows travel. Zelda shoots just 3 up, they fall down, and rain hell upon people. She could have an option to fire straight ahead by tapping neutral Special... maybe a burst of 3 arrows or just 1. In the air, probably should restrict her to shooting downwards like Sheik's Needle Storm since let's say even with set knockback, it could still be stupid enough that Zelda can kill off the top in the weirdest of ways.

Yeah... This is better left in the Zelda so- a PM or something. Seriously, I don't get why they didn't give her a bow for a Special, but a Spirit Tracks-only idea... Zelda's as much of an archer to Link like how Ganondorf is as much of a swordsman to Link. It's getting really close to being a part of Zelda's character as an archer and an elemental one or a magical one... Funny enough, Ganondorf would be the magical swordsman and the warlock to Zelda's magical archer and sorceress to Link's jack of all trades, slowly being less magically inclined. I swear, if Zelda ends up using a bow in Zelda Wii U and perhaps even Link's mentor later in the game, it's really going to question why the hell Zelda doesn't have a bow in Smash, but a random Spirit Tracks reference better left to Toon Zelda.

Zelda's neutral Special should be Light / Silver Arrow, or something involved with bow, Up Special as Farore's Wind is fine the way it is, and then there's Side Special and Down Special... Nayru's Love should probably be Down Special and that leaves Side Special... Maybe it shouldn't be Din's Fire, but some other move... No, not Phantom Slash since it kind of doesn't make sense with Twilight Princess Zelda. Din's Fire could be her Final Smash. As this AOE attack. If it stays as a projectile, then sure, Side Special, but if it's an AOE, maybe it should be her neutral acting like Ike's Eruption and Side Special should be Light / Silver Arrow. Problem right now with her Specials is that they're kind of put in the wrong place in my opinion and I blame Sheik since Transform was a Down Special. If Sheik and Zelda were never the "same characters", I honestly think that Nayru's Love would have been her Down Special considering most, but not all Down Specials are defensive moves...

Wait... That also means Sheik's Specials are also a bit jumbled... Burst Grenade should be her Down Special and Bouncing Fish should be her Side Special... The fact they're different moves means that players will suffer from muscle memory telling them Side Special is Chain Whip and Down Special is Transform, but for the developers, they're completely different moves... Sheik's horizontal moving Bouncing Fish and Burst Grenade's more defensive nature... Did the developers just go **** all with Sheik aka also Zelda and fake Zelda and Zelda herself? Probably.

Also, For Glory stories! I started doing stupid stuff and stopped playing seriously... There's a problem when you can win by intentionally spamming moves in a predictable manner. I'm not spamming like stereotypical FG Links who roll after they spam. I'm freaking spamming one single move and people have trouble figuring out what to do. HOLY ****! Really!? Gee, I wonder what I should do about that Kirby player walking slowly towards me charging Hammer Flip. Oh, I'm going to Counter. You do realize that I can hold this charge for as long as I want, right? You're better off using your sword... Y'know, that thing Marth uses to attack with? Also, after the third time of me using Falco's Reflector in place, it might be a good idea to jump and hit me. I almost timed out a player by spamming Nayru's Love mostly in place or running in and using it! It wasn't until the last 50 seconds did the player realize that they could punish the recovery... with Sheik's Bouncing Fish... There was even a Sheik who failed to followup her D-throw despite me not DI'ing and trying to charge Jet Hammer. I'M A FAT PENGUIN! HOW ON EARTH DO YOU MISS ME!? Also, then there's the players who taunt and think they're real good when they fought a player who sandbagged the entire time. You aren't good because you managed to beat a Fox spamming Fire Fox. You're also not good if you manage to die and get hit repeatedly... How the hell do people... Why? How do you not figure out how to beat someone like this? People have stood in front of me holding rapid jab and could not figure out that jumping and doing an aerial works. There was a Roy who decided it was a good idea to charge Flare Blade about a third of the stage away from me... as I was holding rapid jab.

The good thing is that I did learn a couple of things like both Links' Spin Attacks are really good. Link's is just fast and strong while Toon Link's active frames makes it pretty much deadly to Bayonetta if he ever decides it's a good idea to run up and Spin Attack in front of her. Also, I think Kirby's Hammer Flip has armor during the hit while Triple D's doesn't... Frame data says otherwise, so...

 

[LonkQ]

Playing FG is great. I ended up doing a Ryu challenge, and played like randoms in SF4. It's shocking how much trouble people have getting around Hadouken and Shoryuken spam.