Zelda/Sheik Discussion

[Aryman]

So I haven't seen a thread that deals specifically with this topic so i thought I'd make one.

For Brawl, do you think Zelda/Sheik should be split into 2 different characters or stay the same? Should they get rid of Sheik altogether? Give them new movesets ( Zelda could easily have new TP-based moves, including Light Arrows and spells)?

I thought about making a poll but that kinda restricts the options, and maybe you guys have better ideas.

 

[the grim lizard]

She will likely be removed.

If she does stay, she should be watered down a LOT. (It's ridiculous that a pretty minor character alter-ego in one game owns the Tiers.) And, she wouldn't be her own character IF she did. and IF she did, I'd like to see more interdependence between her and Zelda.

But, she will likely be removed.

 

[Copperpot]

I'd say to just leave 'them' the way they are (don't split them up). Before the anit-Shiek crew gangs-up on me, no, I don't play as Shiek. Never have. Never will.

Sure, I think that Shiek does need to be toned down a tad, granted that she somewhat overshadows Zelda combat-wise. A possible fix would be to lower the knockback on her smash attacks slightly while boosting her special abilities a bit.

I wouldn't be suprised to see neither of them come back, though. Zero-Suit Samus appears to have a very similar moveset to that of Shiek's (a gun for projectile specials, a whip, and an overall similar fighting style).

On the other hand, I can't recall ever fighting someone who used Zelda for Zelda herself. They'd normally just switch over to Shiek at the first chance they get.

 

[the grim lizard]

I'd say to just leave 'them' the way they are (don't split them up). Before the anit-Shiek crew gangs-up on me, no, I don't play as Shiek. Never have. Never will.

Sure, I think that Shiek does need to be toned down a tad, granted that she somewhat overshadows Zelda combat-wise. A possible fix would be to lower the knockback on her smash attacks slightly while boosting her special abilities a bit.

I wouldn't be suprised to see neither of them come back, though. Zero-Suit Samus appears to have a very similar moveset to that of Shiek's (a gun for projectile specials, a whip, and an overall similar fighting style).

On the other hand, I can't recall ever fighting someone who used Zelda for Zelda herself. They'd normally just switch over to Shiek at the first chance they get.

I've played lots of Zeldas. Most of the guys I play with use both. In fact, a few (when they play her) only use Zelda, not Sheik. But, they are a rare breed...

Oh, and Zelda is definitely coming back. I'd put money on it.

 

[DarkKyanite]

i agree with copperpot, from the videos they have released
zero suit samus shares lots common in fighting style and weapon with sheik
it is possible that shiek's removed but zero suit samus will be the replacement
so nothign really changes, except that ppl will be started to choose samus and press Y or X
to change custom from dark armour to no armour(zero suit probably).

 

[Phaazoid]

i'll bet shiek comes back, as becoming out-dated isn't enough of a reason for removal. plus, i know someone who mains shiek, and only shiek (not zelda), and he is really good.

 

[Wiseguy]

i'll bet shiek comes back, as becoming out-dated isn't enough of a reason for removal. plus, i know someone who mains shiek, and only shiek (not zelda), and he is really good.

Wow. You know someone who mains as Sheik and ignores Zelda? That's almost as impressive as a dog who barks.

Zelda/Sheik is going to be replaced with Twilight Princess Zelda - just as OoT Link was replaced by TP Link. Twilight Princess Zelda can't transform into Sheik, so Sheik will be cut. Which is a good thing, since Sheik's unfairly powerful moveset ruins an otherwise exceptionally balanced game.

Sheik is dead. Long live Zero Suit Samus!

 

[DonkeyPirate]

Yeah, if I never see sheik again, I will be ok with that. Judging from her moves in the second vid, I think zero suit samus is replacing shiek and balancing samus's ridiculous recovery. No more samus bombs! (just a theory)

 

[the grim lizard]

Wow. You know someone who mains as Sheik and ignores Zelda? That's almost as impressive as a dog who barks.

Zelda/Sheik is going to be replaced with Twilight Princess Zelda - just as OoT Link was replaced by TP Link. Twilight Princess Zelda can't transform into Sheik, so Sheik will be cut. Which is a good thing, since Sheik's unfairly powerful moveset ruins an otherwise exceptionally balanced game.

Sheik is dead. Long live Zero Suit Samus!

LOL! So true, Wiseguy...

Yeah, if I never see sheik again, I will be ok with that. Judging from her moves in the second vid, I think zero suit samus is replacing shiek and balancing samus's ridiculous recovery. No more samus bombs! (just a theory)

Nah..ain't happening. (Besides, the Morphball is Samus's most unique ability in the Metroid games, and the only time she uses it in Smash other than a roll is bomb lays...)

 

[Fawriel]

Thanks, Wiseguy.

Really, there's nothing to discuss.
Zelda will be Twilight Princess Zelda. She will not be the worst designed character this time. And she will be beautiful.
Sheik will be gone and not missed by me. TP Zelda has never displayed any ninja-cosplaying fetishes. And whoever thinks Sheik will return as a single character needs a reality check. The only thing Sheik has going for her is that she's strong in Melee. Don't make me whip out my Lord Pukenstein analogy. You don't want me to do that.
And Zero Suit Samus.

Zelda in, Sheik out. Case closed.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Well, Zelda is returning, she makes up a 3rd of the triforce and the series is named after her. Hopefully this time they buff her up somewhat and make her more impressive, she didn't deserve to get outclassed by her alter ego so much.

As for Sheik, it wouldn't be the end of the world if she returned, but I don't see much reason in Sheik staying. S/he/it/potatoe's become largely insignificant amongst the Zelda series as they haven't done anything with her recently, and now Zelda has become much more involved in the storyline to not have to rely on her alter ego. Plus, it'd probably be much easier to implement a new B move for Zelda rather than rework Sheik.

As far as ZS Samus becoming the new Sheik, I think we are jumping to conclusions somewhat. Sure, what we saw in the trailer is similar to Sheik (and I have no doubt Sakurai wanted us to see that), and there other similarities between the two, but I still think ZS Samus will play quite differently from Sheik. However, the fact that she does appear Sheik like doesn't bode very well for Sheik (either that or Sakurai's becoming unoriginal, but I strongly doubt that).

Edit @ Fawriel: Zelda was always beautiful. You just barely have a chance to notice because everyone changes to Sheik before the battle even starts.

 

[Phaazoid]

@wiseguy
my point was, sakurai doesn't wan't to cut someone that
A-isn't a clone (like yl or doc)
B-is very popular (mario, link)
if some one mains a clone, they can always switch to the cloned person. if they main someone like sheik or G@W, good bye main and angry smasher. sakurai wants as little angry smashers as possible.

 

[DarkKyanite]

Edit @ Fawriel: Zelda was always beautiful. You just barely have a chance to notice because everyone changes to Sheik before the battle even starts.

so true lol

if some one mains a clone, they can always switch to the cloned person. if they main someone like sheik or G@W, good bye main and angry smasher. sakurai wants as little angry smashers as possible.

someone can always switch to the cloned person?? i think that only applys to "some"
of the doc users. captain falcon's just not the same as ganondorf u agree?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wow. You know someone who mains as Sheik and ignores Zelda? That's almost as impressive as a dog who barks.

Zelda/Sheik is going to be replaced with Twilight Princess Zelda - just as OoT Link was replaced by TP Link. Twilight Princess Zelda can't transform into Sheik, so Sheik will be cut. Which is a good thing, since Sheik's unfairly powerful moveset ruins an otherwise exceptionally balanced game.

Sheik is dead. Long live Zero Suit Samus!

That summed it up exactly as I wanted to, thanks.

And for those who still don't understand; remove Sheik, give Zelda a new and improved moveset. Hail Zero Suit Samus!

 

[Darkfur]

Not everyone who mains a clone can switch. Tell people who main Ganondorf to switch to Captain Falcon. Thats... >_<

I'm a Samus user myself, btw. [And fox/Peach]

Also, whenever I play as Zelda, I never switch to sheik. If I wanted a fast character, I'd play fox.

 

[Fawriel]

Eeeh, I dunno. I find her Melee dress too pink and her nose too pointy and... stuff.
Her Twilight Princess incarnation, I could stare at for hours. Blondes aren't usually my type, but DARN... she'll be top tier in Brawl because nobody will dare to attack her. D=

http://wii.advancedmn.com/images/media/zeldatp_60.jpg

*squeal*

 

[DarkKyanite]

maybe peach will XD



and for the person below me

I think the best bet here would be to split them and give them slightly altered movesets, since most Zelda users use Sheik or Zelda, not both.

did u read what other ppl posted?

 

[Aryman]

I really don't think they would cut out Sheik because so many people main her (him? it?), myself included, and taking her out would anger a lot of smashers.

I think the best bet here would be to split them and give them slightly altered movesets, since most Zelda users use Sheik or Zelda, not both.

Zelda: light arrows instead of the current smash B fire ball; sword dive instead of the teleport
Sheik: ANYTHING other than the useless chain

Of course new vB moves would also be needed.

 

[Fawriel]

Pfff.
1. Sakurai isn't some sorta emo with low self-esteem who cuts his wrists when someone somewhere writes to him that they were unhappy about a decision he made. The exclusion of Sheik will not lower the sales.

2. It's a viable point that Zamus will be the new Sheik in terms of style. Replacement, if you will.

3. Even if Sheik DOES return, do you really think she will still be as ****ed powerful? He/She/It/Potatoe[sic] was one of the characters who were tentatively nerfed in the PAL version. And anything that's happened in that change can only happen likewise or even more strongly in the transition to Brawl.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Eeeh, I dunno. I find her Melee dress too pink and her nose too pointy and... stuff.
Her Twilight Princess incarnation, I could stare at for hours. Blondes aren't usually my type, but DARN... she'll be top tier in Brawl because nobody will dare to attack her. D=

http://wii.advancedmn.com/images/media/zeldatp_60.jpg

*squeal*

It was more of a dig at how Zelda barely gets any screen time in Melee because everyone immediately switches to her alter ego right off the bat.

Her TP version is beautiful though, no arguments there. (it also seems I have found the perfect counterpick against Fawriel)

Also, while it's likely that some of the clones won't return, I don't think that they are the only ones in danger.

And as far as angering a lot of smashers, I don't think Sheik is really that popular overall. Sure, Sheik's fairly popular amongst the competitive community, but I don't think the casual players are that fussed on Sheik. And last time I checked, the casual players were the vast majority of Smash fans.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I really don't think they would cut out Sheik because so many people main her (him? it?), myself included, and taking her out would anger a lot of smashers.

I think the best bet here would be to split them and give them slightly altered movesets, since most Zelda users use Sheik or Zelda, not both.

Zelda: light arrows instead of the current smash B fire ball; sword dive instead of the teleport
Sheik: ANYTHING other than the useless chain

Of course new vB moves would also be needed.

Yeah but Sakurai already accounced that characters will be cut from Brawl. Sure, it might anger some Smashers when they hear Sheik is no more but atleast Sakurai already has a replacement; Zero Suit Samus.

Besides, wasn't Dr.Mario also used 1000 x more than Mario himself in Smash? Most Smashers are just tier whores so even if Sheik doesn't return they'll pick another Top Tier character anyways. And anyone with common knowlegde knows that if Sheik returns she'll get nerfed as hell, so Sakurai made the right move with Zero Suit Samus, a Sheik type character into a new body with different moves but similair play to Sheik. That way, Sheik doesn't need to get nerfed and doesn't needs to return.

Sheik is a he/she/it/potatoe btw.

 

[schep]

Did I miss something?

I'm a little confused upon why it has all of a sudden become "common knowledge" that Sheik will be removed from SSBB... Sheik was one of my favorite characters ever created in all of the Zelda series, aside from maybe Zelda herself. If it's balance you're concerened about hasn't anyone thought it would be plausible to tone her down? Having said all this I also wouldn't be suprised to see Sheik removed. Harumph! What would rectify this for me would be if Zelda was made into one bmf... twilight bow and all .......... maybe a possessed Zelda perhaps? Oh man I can dream right!?!

-Y-peace-Y-

 

[Fawriel]

Zelda will most likely (99%) be Twilight Princess Zelda, so she would logically not transform into Sheik.
You may hope for a more powerful Zelda, though. She will most definitely be fixed, because a character with just about 2 usable attacks just doesn't work.
Her up-b and side-b will likely be improved and a down-b naturally added. One of the new B moves will likely be Light Arrows, which she has used in two final battles now.
Not to mention that she'll quite possibly use the rapier she has in TP. Sounds nice, doesn't it?

 

[Aki-toriko]

Sheik is no longer as relevent to the Zelda series as she was in Melee. Sheik represented OOT and OOT represented the N64, thus she was included as a tribute to OOT. But now it has been almost a decade since OOT and Sheik has not appeared in a game since. Besides most played as Sheik not for her character,s appeal, but because of her stats and power. In this sense, it makes a lot more sense to kick Sheiks character, give her moves to a new character (I agree with those who say Zamus) and base Zelda on her TP model with a brand new moveset.

 

[Aryman]

Well..

Isn't it possible that Sheik has earned a spot on the roster because of her popularity in Melee? Sure she was only in OoT, but many people know who she is now because of her inclusion.

Besides, who's to say she might not make a comeback in some future Zelda game?

 

[Vali]

Isn't it possible that Sheik has earned a spot on the roster because of her popularity in Melee? Sure she was only in OoT, but many people know who she is now because of her inclusion.

Besides, who's to say she might not make a comeback in some future Zelda game?

Because it was a disguise for Zelda to hide from Ganondorf taught to her by Impa (or something along those lines). Not only that but none of the stories follow on from each other, so Zelda transforming into Sheik is exclusive to OOT and for her/him/it/potatoe to return, they'll not only need to have some sort of sequel to OOT (which would be completely pointless as TP seems more likely to have a sequel if any) and even then Zelda would need some plot about going into hiding again.

Sheik was only popular due to a moveset, so without that moveset she/he/it/potatoe wouldn't be popular at all and thus a waste of a slot. When you think about all the characters that could be added from franchises into Brawl, pretty much no-one would want characters like Sheik and to a lesser extent Roy just because people use them in Melee. Brawl =/= Melee V2.0, people will find new mains and enjoy them even if their existing mains return in some cases, since there's more variety to choose from.

 

[Dark Scape22]

I play with sheek ya tone it down but dont take hear out zelda is a large part of nintindo
so stuff as much in ther as posabel

 

[Aryman]

...pretty much no-one would want characters like Sheik and to a lesser extent Roy just because people use them in Melee...

Except the people who use them...

It's true that it won't be the end of the world if she isn't included, but I would be disappointed to lose my main. Wouldn't anybody?

 

[Aki-toriko]

I think axeing Sheik and giving her moveset to a newer, more relevent character would not only be more likely, but would greatly benefit her moveset and Zelda's. It would give scope for Zelda's moveset to be updated, the moves Sheik once had to also be updated/nerfed/balanced out (whatever you want to happen to it), and would give a new down B move to both characters. Either way I don't think a we'll see a Zelda/Sheik style combo in Brawl because the Zelda/Sheik combo in Melee didn't go according to plan. The developers wanted strategic swapping between the two, but most players chose one at the beginning and stuck with them. It would, in that respect, had made much more sense to have made them seperate characters, and I'm sure Sakurai will have realised that as well.

 

[Aryman]

I think axeing Sheik and giving her moveset to a newer, more relevent character would not only be more likely, but would greatly benefit her moveset and Zelda's. It would give scope for Zelda's moveset to be updated, the moves Sheik once had to also be updated/nerfed/balanced out (whatever you want to happen to it), and would give a new down B move to both characters. Either way I don't think a we'll see a Zelda/Sheik style combo in Brawl because the Zelda/Sheik combo in Melee didn't go according to plan. The developers wanted strategic swapping between the two, but most players chose one at the beginning and stuck with them. It would, in that respect, had made much more sense to have made them seperate characters, and I'm sure Sakurai will have realised that as well.

Hmm... I hadn't thought about that. They probably did intend people to switch back and forth between the two.

I would be content if they gave Sheik's moveset (at least the A moves) to someone else, if they did decide to cut her out. From the trailers I would say they've already picked someone...

 

[BrTarolg]

Wow. You know someone who mains as Sheik and ignores Zelda? That's almost as impressive as a dog who barks.

Zelda/Sheik is going to be replaced with Twilight Princess Zelda - just as OoT Link was replaced by TP Link. Twilight Princess Zelda can't transform into Sheik, so Sheik will be cut. Which is a good thing, since Sheik's unfairly powerful moveset ruins an otherwise exceptionally balanced game.

Sheik is dead. Long live Zero Suit Samus!

if you think that smash is even MODERATELY balanced you havnt thought hard enough lol...

shiek, marth, fox, falco, peach are all horribly broken

not to mention how smash uses more finger dexterity than ANY other fighter right now, the possibilities for each character are so incredibly limiteless - if you have perfect tech skill you have a HUGE advantage over your opponent, i mean the advantage is literally riculous

people like to say mindgames > techskill, but frankly, theres a VERY strong correlation between the best players and their techskill right now

---

yes, i think zsamus will be the "new" shiek if she comes back

 

[Wiseguy]

if you think that smash is even MODERATELY balanced you havnt thought hard enough lol...

shiek, marth, fox, falco, peach are all horribly broken

not to mention how smash uses more finger dexterity than ANY other fighter right now, the possibilities for each character are so incredibly limiteless - if you have perfect tech skill you have a HUGE advantage over your opponent, i mean the advantage is literally riculous

people like to say mindgames > techskill, but frankly, theres a VERY strong correlation between the best players and their techskill right now

---

yes, i think zsamus will be the "new" shiek if she comes back

Sheik isn't the only broken character, but I consider he/she/it/potatoe to be the worst offender because of the ease with which she can be mastered. A Fox or Falco player needs robo-cop like reflexes before they can use them as cheaply.

And yeah, I do consider Melee to be one of the more balanced fighting games I've played. More often than not, the player with the greater skill will win regardless of their character choice. But you can't tell me that in a match between two equally skilled players, Sheik doesn't have a huge advantage over Donkey Kong.

 

[BrTarolg]

and marth, peach, fox, falco, captain falcon, pikachu, jiggly puff, samus all probably have an equally good game vs DK

with shiek as my main since the day smash came out, i STILL find that in order to even TRY and compete with anyone good theres still ALOT of finger dexterity going into it, aswell as plenty of quick fast reactions..

i think people saying shiek is easy to get very good at is just one of those myths.. if you ever get around to playing the "noob shieks" at random open tournaments where passerbyers can play you DO see those shieks beat the other random passerbyers, but its very easy to counter all the dash attack spamming that usually comes from it

---

tbh, i hope that brawl takes OUT some of the finger dexterity from it. things like infinite JC shines, superwavedashes, infinite grab combos, and waveshine infinites add a needlessly large amount of complexity to the game.

the fact that falcos main standdown is to short hop and laser is just completely un-intuitive - how can such a small part of the game influence the entire standing of a character so much?

things that should affect the character are things like "marth has a big sword" or "fox has lots of very quick attacks" or "shieks attacks have very little lag"
not "fox has the unforseen ability to infinite half of the characters and completely null shieldgrabbing and half of the recoveries in the game"

 

[Aryman]

Tarolg, I think you just opened yourself up for some flames

But yea, Smash needs to tone down on the complexity a little so there isn't such a huge difference between a player who knows how to wavedash and one who doesn't, for example.

 

[Wiseguy]

and marth, peach, fox, falco, captain falcon, pikachu, jiggly puff, samus all probably have an equally good game vs DK

It varies, really. Fox and Falco have an even greater advantage. Marth and Peach are about equal to Sheik and everyone you mentioned has an advantage - but to a significantly lesser extent.

But yeah, I see your point. Sheik isn't the only character that makes Melee unbalanced. For the record, I also support Fox, Falco, Marth and Peach being nerfed (if they all return).

with shiek as my main since the day smash came out, i STILL find that in order to even TRY and compete with anyone good theres still ALOT of finger dexterity going into it, aswell as plenty of quick fast reactions..

i think people saying shiek is easy to get very good at is just one of those myths.. if you ever get around to playing the "noob shieks" at random open tournaments where passerbyers can play you DO see those shieks beat the other random passerbyers, but its very easy to counter all the dash attack spamming that usually comes from it

I'm not talking about Noobs, I'm talking about equally skilled players. I'm a decent Doc player, for instance, and I can hold my own against most of my Sheik playing friends - but I know if I mess up once I'm dead - wheras Sheik players have a bit more of a comfort zone. Sheik players aren't invinsible, but they do have a tangible advantage over non-high tier characters.

---

tbh, i hope that brawl takes OUT some of the finger dexterity from it. things like infinite JC shines, superwavedashes, infinite grab combos, and waveshine infinites add a needlessly large amount of complexity to the game.

the fact that falcos main standdown is to short hop and laser is just completely un-intuitive - how can such a small part of the game influence the entire standing of a character so much?

things that should affect the character are things like "marth has a big sword" or "fox has lots of very quick attacks" or "shieks attacks have very little lag"
not "fox has the unforseen ability to infinite half of the characters and completely null shieldgrabbing and half of the recoveries in the game"

I respect players who can preform these impressive feats you mentioned - but I too hope that Brawl's engine varies enough that these tactics cease to exist. Although, I'm sure new secret moves will exist in Brawl for skilled players to discover.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I caused offence. I honestly don't have anything against Sheik players - it's the unbalanced nature of the character that infuriates me.

 

[Fawriel]

Haha, Tarolg, you are lucky Dylan_Tnga is banned.
Kinda sad, really. But that's not the point right now.
I agree that Brawl should be more... "natural". And that characters like Fox need nerfing. If he was just the most ridiculously fast character but also weak in all respects, he'd still have a good standing in the tiers. ( Pichu is fast but ridiculously weak, but Fox isn't as light and has much better range. )

I know completely where you're coming from with that last line, Wiseguy. My father is a ridiculously bad player, but in some match-ups, I don't even get a chance to approach him because of the speed, priority, range and whatever of the characters he uses. Mind you, he has no chance without a huge handicap, but still.

I think one factor that greatly upsets the balance in Smash is that some characters' strongest attacks are also their fastest. Fox's up-smash, uair and so on all come out instantly, Sheik's fair comes out instantly, Falco's dair... =/

 

[Copperpot]

Hmm... I hadn't thought about that. They probably did intend people to switch back and forth between the two.

I would be content if they gave Sheik's moveset (at least the A moves) to someone else, if they did decide to cut her out. From the trailers I would say they've already picked someone...

At the very most Zero-Suit Samus would only be similar to Shiek, at least as far as execution is concerned. I'm willing to bet that the transformation from Samus to her Zero-Suit only occurs under static conditions. For example: she sustains significant damage to her armor (70%-100%) until it breaks away, revealing the Zero-Suit, or (less likely, in my opinion) her Final Smash attack removes it.

The reasoning behind my logic resides in the fact that the 'controlled' switch between character forms doesn't work. The only way to fix this is to have the battle dictate what form the character is in.

 

[Phaazoid]

Dylan_Tnga is banned?
man, i used to laugh at his flaming. ohh well
on subject, i believe that shieks speed and dash attack are the only advantages he has, as after you practice a bit, it is easy to counter. to really master shiek, you have to use more moves than just dash attack and one smash.

@wiseguy
if they make shiek not cheap, would you be angry if it returned?

 

[Aki-toriko]

At the very most Zero-Suit Samus would only be similar to Shiek, at least as far as execution is concerned. I'm willing to bet that the transformation from Samus to her Zero-Suit only occurs under static conditions. For example: she sustains significant damage to her armor (70%-100%) until it breaks away, revealing the Zero-Suit, or (less likely, in my opinion) her Final Smash attack removes it.

The reasoning behind my logic resides in the fact that the 'controlled' switch between character forms doesn't work. The only way to fix this is to have the battle dictate what form the character is in.

But if Samus were to magically turn into ZSS mid-brawl it would irrate just as many people as it would amaze. People will want to play exclusively as either Samus and ZSS and having a random element that makes them switch between them would be fiddly, annoying and mean players could not strategise. For example, we could see players deliberately taking damage if ZSS was activated by reaching 70% damage for example, which would put the player at a massive disadvantage. In other words, Samus would become one of the most unpopular characters, becuase she would become far too unpredicatble.

I believe Sakurai started off with the intention of linking Samus/ZSS but gave up on the idea and just made ZSS a secret character. The only way I could ever see them being linked is if other characters have alternate forms, but I can't see this happening in a million years. It would just make lots of people very angry!

 

[Vali]

I don't get it. The argument of "Sheik is easy to get very good at" isn't debunked by the counter-argument along the lines of what BrTarolg posted

if you ever get around to playing the "noob shieks" at random open tournaments where passerbyers can play you DO see those shieks beat the other random passerbyers, but its very easy to counter all the dash attack spamming that usually comes from it

That doesn't make sense, because surely if a player has easily gotten to be very good at Sheik they'd no longer fall into the "noob Sheik" category. Or you're attempting to say that being very good with Sheik is often = to being a noob with Sheik in which case I don't think any other character could be said that you're at the same time very good but also a noob with the character.