Legend of Zelda Zelda: Old vs. New

[Removed By Request]

So, lately I've been noticing a few arguments online about whether the older Zelda games or the newer ones are better. What do you guys here on Smashboards think? Are the older, exploration-based games the best in the series, or the newer, puzzle-focused ones? Personally, I don't like the games after the Oracle twins.

 

[Spire]

So let's see...

Wind Waker, Minish Cap, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword are terrible? Or for that matter, are Four Swords/Adventures, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks terrible as well? While opinion is opinion, I don't think any of these games are terrible. Sure, they're different from the more open-ended classics, but they're still good games. Spirit Tracks is literally the lowest rated Zelda game and it has something like an 86% average. Most Zelda games rank in the mid 90s range as far as ratings go. That's good.

Also: why are the Oracles your dividing point? And are they grouped with the games before, after, or do you consider them a separate entity? Do you hail them to be gifts of the gods? Are they that magnificent? Have their means of emulating the duel-release of Pokémon captured your soul?

 

[Removed By Request]

OK, let me break it down:

Wind Waker... I liked the art style, but the overworld was too empty for its size. And this is also my complaint with its successors. I like having a coherent world abundant with secrets, rather than a vast, disconnected, and relatively empty one. Plus, the sailing was not cool.

Minish Cap is the only one I've never played.

Twilight Princess didn't feel very inspired to me. While I liked Midna, I'm very adamant about the fact that there shouldn't be a helper holding your hand throughout the game. It's insulting! But I felt like Twilight Princess' overworld was also too empty, especially considering that it's the same Hyrule Field from Ocarina.

Four Swords/Adventures didn't feel like real Zelda games to me. They weren't difficult at all... I think that if those games didn't have 'Zelda' in the title, they wouldn't have sold very well. Plus, it was such a hassle to link the games together.

I know how the games rank, but I don't think that just because a game is critically acclaimed, it's necessarily great. Plus, the way that a lot of reviewers look at Zelda games is skewed - they don't look at them relative to other games, but relative to other Zeldas. Like "Skyward Sword is the best Zelda game yet!" OK... that doesn't necessarily make it a good game.

The Oracle twins - I chose them because they weren't developed by Nintendo, making them ill-suited to compare to the rest of the series. But in my opinion, they are great games - they sort of remind me of Link's Awakening, my personal favorite.

Those are my thoughts. What do you think?

 

[etecoon]

on average I have to say I liked the older games more, aonuma did have success with MM which is my favorite game in the series, but I thought WW and TP were very average, PH is definitely the worst game in the series, and SS is such a mixed bag that I'm not quite sure what to think(brilliant one moment, terrible the next)

 

[KaiN]

I personally prefer 2D's Zeldas, but the rest, like WW, or OoT are incredibles. Love all Zelda's saga ^^

 

[Wizzrobe]

I loved the Zelda games from both era's but my favorites are probably some of the 3d Zelda games to be honest.

 

[Dre89]

People need to learn to stop considering their personal preferences when evaluating games. For example people complain about WW's art style because they personally don't like it. Whether you like it or not it executed cel shading very well. Complaining about the cel shading is like complaining that a picture book doesn't have words.

People may also complain about not liking sailing, but again that's personal preference. What should be discussed is the execution of the sailing mechanics.

An example of objective comments would be that OoT's combat system is clunky, it was an innovative game, and it has a shallow plot.

If people can't tell what the difference is they probably shouldn't be providing critiques.

 

[Removed By Request]

on average I have to say I liked the older games more, aonuma did have success with MM which is my favorite game in the series, but I thought WW and TP were very average, PH is definitely the worst game in the series, and SS is such a mixed bag that I'm not quite sure what to think(brilliant one moment, terrible the next)

Yes, Majora's Mask was great (I included it before the cutoff, I like it very much)! And what do you mean about Skyward Sword? Personally, I was just bored and annoyed throughout.

People need to learn to stop considering their personal preferences when evaluating games. For example people complain about WW's art style because they personally don't like it. Whether you like it or not it executed cel shading very well. Complaining about the cel shading is like complaining that a picture book doesn't have words.

People may also complain about not liking sailing, but again that's personal preference. What should be discussed is the execution of the sailing mechanics.

An example of objective comments would be that OoT's combat system is clunky, it was an innovative game, and it has a shallow plot.

If people can't tell what the difference is they probably shouldn't be providing critiques.

I liked the cel shading, and I think what was holding WW back was its execution of sailing mechanics.

Personally, I don't think Zelda needs a plot at all, or at least not the way that it is now. I'd prefer that it go back to the free-roaming style of older games.

 

[Wizzrobe]

If you'll notice, when I broke it down I said that I liked the cel shading of WW, PH, and ST, and what was holding WW back was its execution of sailing mechanics. So... I guess you agree with me...?

Personally, I don't think Zelda needs a plot at all, or at least, not in the way that most people think of it. I'd prefer it to go back to the free-roaming style of Zelda I. After all, that was the masterpiece that started this wonderful series, so it could only succeed!

I agree that we need more exploration elements in recent Zelda games. It seems like they have slipped away from that aspect more in recent 3d games.

 

[Ecks]

I'm probably one of the few who absolutely loves WW. I don't see what was so fantastic about running around Hyrule field and finding holes in the ground that reward you some money. Wind Waker's treasure charts are better than that if you ask me.

And I'm not saying your thoughts on WW aren't valid, I'm saying that most overworlds in Zelda are uninteresting and empty, with a few hearts and rupees around. The only overworld I thoroughly enjoyed was ALTTP.

 

[Removed By Request]

That's one thing I dislike about modern Zeldas as well - in games like TP, the overworld is vast, but it's empty and uninspired. But take the first Zelda for example - it had at least one secret on almost every one of its screens! So your preference of WW's oceans over the modern overworlds... I get that. But what do you think of the time it takes to cross the ocean? That's one reason I prefer a field: you can just hop on Epona and zoom through.

I agree that we need more exploration elements in recent Zelda games. It seems like they have slipped away from that aspect more in recent 3d games.

Yes, the games do seem to be becoming more plot-centered as the series goes on. I have a feeling that the next Zelda game will be the same way...

 

[Wizzrobe]

Yes, the games do seem to be becoming more plot-centered as the series goes on. I have a feeling that the next Zelda game will continue this trend as well... Just a feeling.

The next Zelda game will probably be that 2d Zelda game on the 3ds that might be in development. It's classic 2d style so we might actually get a lot of exploration in that game.

 

[Removed By Request]

I've heard about that. I've got very high hopes for that game. I hope it won't be 2D just in graphics (but it is the 3DS). If we can have 2D, top-down view, free-roaming awesomeness, then I will love Nintendo again.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Yes, I've heard about that. I've got very high hopes for that game, but I hope it won't be "2D" in simply graphics (which won't happen anyway because it is the 3DS, so Nintendo will have to throw in 3D somewhere). If they can just ignore the 3DS' 3D capabilities for this one game, and we can have 2D, top-down view, free-roaming NLoZ awesomeness, then I will love Nintendo again.

I think that they said the 3d pop out could help put some depth into the game.

With a Top -down view it could help make clever puzzles with angles and stuff so it could work.

Miyamoto wants it to be similiar to aLTTP so we can know for sure that it's going to be a top-down view.

 

[Removed By Request]

If it's similar to aLttP, then I'll be happy. But I just hope that it doesn't go from "item-based puzzles" to "motion-based puzzles," you know? I'd be fine with the type of puzzles we had in aLttP or LA, but I really want this to go back to being focused on exploration (it is New Legend of Zelda, it should be pretty similar to the older style). If Miyamoto is involved to a significant degree, I'm sure it'll turn out fine, but Aonuma did say "I didn't think I'd ever want to make a game like that."

 

[Wizzrobe]

I'd suppose so... If it's similar to aLttP, then I'll be happy. But I just hope that it doesn't go from "item-based puzzles" to "motion-based puzzles", you know? I'd be fine with the type of puzzles we had in aLttP or LA, but I really want this to go back to being focused on exploration (after all, it is New Legend of Zelda, it should be pretty similar to the older style). If Miyamoto is involved to a significant degree, I'm certain that it'll turn out fine, but... You heard Aonuma, "I didn't think I'd ever want to make a game like that." Please, Miyamoto, save this game for the fans of Zelda!

It's been long enough since we got a new 2-d top view Zelda game so I am also looking very forward to this game. E3 is around 3 weeks away so we may see it announced it there possibly.

 

[Removed By Request]

Oh right, I'd forgotten about that!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The first two games for the NES were terrible for me. And the DS games as wind waker spin-offs were bad as well. Complaint: game-play and controls. An RPG style link for the NES and a stylus only game-play for the DS.

 

[Ecks]

Yes, that's one thing I dislike about modern Zeldas as well - in games like TP, the overworld may be vast, but it's empty and uninspired. But take LoZ for example - it literally had at least one secret on almost every one of its 128 screens! So your preference of WW's oceans over the modern overworlds... I can get that. But one thing I don't understand is - what do you think of the long amount of time it takes to cross the ocean? That's one reason I prefer a field: you can just hop on Epona and zoom through.

I mostly didn't mind the sailing (I know most people hate it lol) as I would usually mess around with the camera, jump around with the boat, and just enjoy the scenery. It's when you have to go great distances or to a place not near the gales that it got long and tiring. They should have either made the sea smaller or gave you the ability to teleport to more places.

And about the upcoming 3DS one, I recall Miyamoto saying he wanted to make another game like ALTTP. I seriously wish they go this route. And if they do, I hope they use sprites.

 

[Removed By Request]

I agree. I think Phantom Hourglass improved on WW in some ways. But it still wasn't a coherent overworld, and instead of the vast ocean with widely spaced islands and some secrets floating around out there, the sea from PH was just a miniature and much more empty area. That's why I thought WW was much better than PH...

The first two games for the NES were terrible for me. And the DS games as wind waker spin-offs were bad as well. Complaint: game-play and controls. An RPG style link for the NES and a stylus only game-play for the DS.

Iif you don't like the gameplay of PH and ST, then why do you like WW's gameplay? What sets it apart from these for you? Or do you dislike it as well?

And as far as I can remember, the DS Zeldas were both almost completely stylus controlled. Do you think stylus controls could be implemented better in a future game?

 

[Gatlin]

please stop double posting. Edit your post instead or use the multiquote button.

 

[Removed By Request]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was doing that!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think all the mothership titles are good except for the NES and DS titles. So, it depends how far back to want to say is "old" to get my stance. I guess I'm of the opinion that the older games are probably the better titles if we are talking about ~2000 and previous.

 

[Removed By Request]

I would consider 'old' to be about... before 2000. But again, why? What differentiates the gameplay of the DS titles from, say, Wind Waker? And why don't you like the NES games?

 

[Ecks]

But if you don't like the gameplay of PH and ST, then why do you like WW's gameplay?

???

WW and PH don't play alike at all. PH is top view 3d and it relies on the touch screen for everything, while WW is, in a nutshell, upgraded OoT (well, every big console title except for SS follows the same formula) mechanics with a boat instead of a horse. They're too different to compare.

I think PH's mechanics blends both the 2d and 3d mechanics in an OK way, but then proceeds to kill that mix with terrible controls.

So yeah, Not liking one doesn't mean you won't like the other. Well, unless you don't like the art style.


Also, I keep reading Xeylode as "Keyhole" for some weird reason...

 

[Removed By Request]

Well, I would say that if you're looking at only console titles after OoT, then all you've got to choose from are MM, WW, TP, and SS. The art style isn't the only difference, the combat mechanics are very different (much more fluid) and then there's that problem of it not having a real overworld like OoT does. And if there's one thing that makes a video game successful, it's immersion.

Yeah, PH's controls were pretty bad. And then ST comes along and throws Phantom Zelda into the mix. Very frustrating.

 

[Wizzrobe]

The DS Zelda games were fun the first time through but after that I never really wanted to replay them again... I didn't really like the gameplay as much as I did with other Zelda games so I'm hoping we won't get that type of gameplay again with the 3ds. I'm expecting the 3ds games to be more like the traditional 2d top-view or 3dimensional console style like OOT 3D which I much prefer over the DS games style.

 

[Removed By Request]

I'm looking for the same thing in the 3DS Zelda. As far as I know, it will be in the 2D style of aLttP, which is awesome.

 

[Ecks]

Well, I would say that if you're looking at only console titles after OoT, then all you've got to choose from are MM, WW, TP, and SS. MM and TP are definitely similar to OoT, and SS is... well, yeah, and Wind Waker sort of follows a style of its own. The art style is not the only difference: the combat mechanics are very different (much more fluid) and then there's that problem of it not having a real overworld like OoT does. Somehow, a bunch of disconnected islands floating in a vast ocean feels very different from a connected overworld which you can traverse much more quickly. It feels more real, you know? And if there's one thing that makes a video game successful, it's immersion.

Yeah, PH's controls were pretty bad. And if you didn't like those, ST comes along and throws controlling Phantom Zelda into the mix. Very frustrating.

I don't think we're on the same page here. When I say the major console games are using the same formula and mechanics I mean that they play pretty much the same. You've got your z targeting, pressing b for sword attacks, you're able to use some items with z targeting, etc. and control is overall the same between them, though certainly improved/revised between games. SS mixes things up so I didn't mention it. Basically mechanics have nothing to do with areas (overworld, dungeons, whatever), which is why I find the comparison of WW's gameplay to PH's to be strange.

Yes, both games share the same concepts of islands, traveling the seas, and they even share the same Link & pals, but that doesn't make them play or feel the same, so it's perfectly understandable why some (or most) like WW but don't like PH.

Oh and I wouldn't worry about getting another touch screen Zelda for the 3DS. The 3DS' main draw is the 3d screen after all.

 

[Removed By Request]

Oh, I didn't get what you meant. Then I completely agree, I love Z targeting, one button for the sword, etc. And what I meant about mechanics was actually about the type of movements Link was making - smooth and fluid in WW but more disjointed in PH. Pretty much everyone that I know who likes WW also hates PH.

And you don't like the NES Zeldas because of the control differences? But why do you like aLttP and LA?

The 3D screen worries me a little bit, to be honest. Normally, I'd be fine with a 3D Zelda so long as it was more Ocarina-like, but this is supposed to be New Legend of Zelda. I don't think they could accurately emulate the gameplay style of LoZ while at the same time trying to wow you with the 3D capabilities of the 3DS. I think that Nintendo might have had more success in accomplishing something like this on the DS... What do you think?

 

[Ecks]

Oh no, I never mentioned not liking the NES ones, Xeylode did (he also stated why he didn't like them). I actually never played that much of LoZ and I never played Zelda II, so I have no opinion on them. aLttP is indeed my favorite Zelda, and as for LA, I'm actually playing it now thanks to the 3DS' virtual console.

And Z targeting or other 3d Zelda aspects have no bearing on whether I'll like a Zelda game or not. I like both styles.

As for the new 3DS Zelda, I sure hope they don't make 3d only puzzles. They could make things pop with an above view too, it could even look more natural, so I hope they go for a ALTTP style game. And they better use sprites instead of models.

 

[Removed By Request]

OK, I've got it now, it all makes sense. I'm glad you're playing LA. It's my favorite Zelda game. And if you like aLttP, you'll definitely like LA. Their styles are very similar.

So it's not that you prefer a particular control set over another, it's just that you want the controls to work? Yeah, I'd like just having multiple control options available.

Pop-up sprites is actually a pretty good idea. They could have the 2D style and everything and still show off the 3D unobtrusively. I think they'll probably go more in the style of aLttP, but it's hard to tell. Can't wait for E3!

 

[Teran]

Old Zelda was actually innovative and pushing boundaries at its time.

Honestly, as much as I love the whole traditional Zelda vibe, traditionalism is a large part of what makes franchises stale. I kinda feel there isn't much of a place for some of Zelda's game mechanics anymore, and that they're focusing too much on timeline/fanservice pandering aspects rather than trying to create something completely different.

*Majora's Mask is better than Ocarina goes here*

*Wind Waker was the last super new adventure goes here*

Skyward Sword was fantastic in a lot of areas, but ultimately, it did feel sort of like Ocarina in that it was a whole new way to experience the same thing.

Link to the Past for god tier.

Dark World theme >>>

 

[MuraRengan]

I'm probably one of the few who absolutely loves WW. I don't see what was so fantastic about running around Hyrule field and finding holes in the ground that reward you some money. Wind Waker's treasure charts are better than that if you ask me.

This. I love windwaker. It's my third favorite behind MM and OoT. I thought that of all the games, WW had the best exploration by far. Travelling across the seas to explore islands was great. The sense of the scale of the world made the feeling of adventure so real. I honestly don't see what there is to not like.

 

[Removed By Request]

WW is my favorite of the modern Zeldas. But I would agree with you a lot more if the game had more warps or some other way to traverse the sea more quickly. The first few times I crossed the sea, it was pretty exciting to see the scale of the world. But after that, it did become a bit boring. And I think any WW fan will have to agree that while the sea looks amazing, it's also pretty empty. Perhaps the sailing might have been made less boring if there were more islands floating out there to discover and explore?

Old Zelda was actually innovative and pushing boundaries at its time.

Honestly, as much as I love the whole traditional Zelda vibe, traditionalism is a large part of what makes franchises stale. I kinda feel there isn't much of a place for some of Zelda's game mechanics anymore, and that they're focusing too much on timeline/fanservice pandering aspects rather than trying to create something completely different.

*Majora's Mask is better than Ocarina goes here*

*Wind Waker was the last super new adventure goes here*

Skyward Sword was fantastic in a lot of areas, but ultimately, it did feel sort of like Ocarina in that it was a whole new way to experience the same thing.

Link to the Past for god tier.

Dark World theme >>>

Older Zeldas really were that innovative, that's one of the reasons I love them! But I get what you're saying about traditionalism. Then again, it depends on the game - look at Mario, for example. It's been 25 years and the gaming community still isn't bored with the exact same Mario formula. I think some things work so well, they won't get stale as long as they have new content to go with the old formula. In Mario, this would be like new items (the raccoon tail or the Mega Mushroom, for example), and in Zelda it could be anything from new items to new enemies and bosses. I think Zelda is one of those franchises where the gameplay just can't get boring!

Yeah, I agree with you about game mechanics. I wish they'd just go one way or the other - do you want to cater to the old fans or the new ones? Because compromise doesn't always work out. And I think this is one of the reasons Zelda's been struggling to fully transition into 3D - the mechanics of a 2D game generally don't hold in 3D. So a NLoZ line along with the 3D Zelda line could work very well - instead of trying to cater to both types of fans with one game, just make one line for each type of gamer! Mario did this with NSMB, and it was a huge success.

I liked MM, but I never preferred it to Ocarina: why do you think it's better? But I do understand why you'd say that WW was the last great Zelda adventure - out of all of the "modern" Zeldas, it was definitely my favorite.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Old Zelda was actually innovative and pushing boundaries at its time.

Honestly, as much as I love the whole traditional Zelda vibe, traditionalism is a large part of what makes franchises stale. I kinda feel there isn't much of a place for some of Zelda's game mechanics anymore, and that they're focusing too much on timeline/fanservice pandering aspects rather than trying to create something completely different.

*Majora's Mask is better than Ocarina goes here*

*Wind Waker was the last super new adventure goes here*

Skyward Sword was fantastic in a lot of areas, but ultimately, it did feel sort of like Ocarina in that it was a whole new way to experience the same thing.

Link to the Past for god tier.

Dark World theme >>>

I think Zelda is still being innovative with the constant new ways of transportation in Zelda games like the boat, train, and loftwing. Also, the new Alttp inspired game coming to the 3ds is said to probably take advantage of the 3d effect so we can see new clever 3d based puzzles now. Also, I am sure we will definitely see more innovation with the Wii U Zelda game for sure.

 

[Teran]

Older Zeldas really were that innovative, that's one of the reasons I love them! But I get what you're saying about traditionalism - franchises can be boring if they repeat similar content over and over again. Then again, it depends what kind of content - look at Mario, for example. It's been 25 years and the gaming community still isn't bored with the exact same Mario formula! I think some things work so well, they won't get stale as long as they have new content to go with the old formula. In Mario, this would be like new items (the raccoon tail or the Mega Mushroom, for example), and in Zelda it could be anything from new items as well (the hookshot in Zelda I would've been really interesting) to new enemies and bosses. I think Zelda is one of those franchises whose gameplay just can't get boring!

There is a difference between preserving the spirit of things and just copypasting stuff over and over. As much as I love Zelda, I could actually design the bare bones of a Zelda game. Yes, me. Here we go.

Be normal boy/young man (probably young man now coz Adult Link k00ler nd more machoor obv). SUDDEN TWIST OF FATE, SOMETHING HAPPENS AND **** WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN. TIME TO GET A GREEN SUIT.

You must collect 3 artifacts of some kind!

Cool you've got the three artifacts, this will lead to you getting the Master Sword.

Got like 4 temples until you face off with BIG BAD.

Oh **** time to face off with BIG BAD.

****EN SWERVE- IT WAS GANON ALL ALONG

Get Light Arrows.

Beat Ganon

Fill in some gaps with getting super important items like hookshot, bow, bomb bag etc. Talk to some animals, collect some items in your spare time for UPGRADES.

Gee wonder what that sounds like. If you answer was A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword (to a lesser extent), you were right!

Playing it safe gives you a satisfactory experience, but it never blows you out of the water. OoT got away with rehashing ALttP because it transitioned into 3D and people were completely dazzled by it at the time (it was totally amazing for the time visually among other things).

But yeah, I don't want to be able to predict ****, it really kinda saddens me because I notice patterns extremely easily, which is what makes me a good gamer/learner, and Zelda games just seem to rehash ALttP to such an extent it's kinda shamefully obvious. Twilight Princess was really bad with its bosses too, I mean as awesome as guys like Stallord were, here is how a TP battle works.

- Find boss weak point

- Perform action to stun boss

- Slash away

- Repeat 2 more times

That was the case with every boss except Zant, really really off putting when you know your 3rd assault is the decisive one. It's one thing I was really excited about with SS' boss battles, there was no obvious *knock down and slash this many times* pattern, and so I was always alert and attentive, and constantly absorbed in the battle.

Yeah, I agree with you about game mechanics. I wish they'd just go one way or the other - do you want to cater to the old fans or the new ones? Because compromise (e.g. Navi and other helpers) makes everyone unhappy. And I think this is one of the reasons Zelda's been struggling to fully transition into 3D - the mechanics of a 2D game generally don't hold with 3D games. So a NLoZ line along with the 3D Zelda line could work very well - instead of trying to cater to both types of fans with one game, just make one line for each type of gamer! Mario did this with NSMB, and it was a huge success - one I believe Nintendo is trying to emulate.

Mario Bros is a different franchise though. It has always been wacky and surreal, and always a pure gameplay experience with a quirky personality. They can just slap in whatever stupid thing they want and it doesn't really matter because what goes on in the mushroom kingdom doesn't require a halfway rational explanation, it's part of the beauty of the franchise.

Zelda whilst ovcioualy a fantasy rpg/adventure series, still has a more directly real feel. The societal infrastructures, for example, mirror those of real life societies. It's just kinda odd how Ganon will randomly place a bunch of evil monsters in some temples/dungeons, which just so happen to have a bunch of treasure chests with all the keys and A ****ING ITEM THAT KILLS HIS MONSTER in the dungeon it protects. Like **** Ganon, why don't you, ya know, take the Megaton hammer out of the Fire Temple if you want to the trouble of reviving Volvagia? **** I mean you have the triforce of power and you don't have the ability to jack some treasures, and just sort of conveniently leave them there for Link? Okay. It sort of worked in the 2D games but now it's just kinda dumb how everything conviently just sort of... gets handed to Link in chests, in a way that will allow him to defeat the villain of the dungeon. :/

I liked MM, but I never preferred it to Ocarina: why do you think it's better? But I do understand why you'd say that WW was the last great Zelda adventure - out of all of the "modern" Zeldas, it was definitely my favorite.

I prefer Majora's Mask to Ocarina because it is better at pretty much everything. For starters, there are actual characters in the game. Darunia dancing to Saria's song doesn't make him a fleshed out character. There was no inherent depth or development to any of the OoT characters. What's funny is even Link himself doesn't grow up or develop, due to the fact that he's suddenly 7 years older.

The story of Majora's Mask was phenomenal. It was phenomenal in that it tied together several underlying themes together, made every character important, tying the whole of Termina together in this enormous web of fate, an amazing study in the subject of actions and consequences.

The game was dark, and not faggy Twilight Princess dark with some emo race/emo imp/OMGWOLF/TWILIGHT TWILIGHT TWILIGHT/BLACK BEASTS/SWERVEGANON, no it was dark in that the villain was truly a master of evil, and the tragedies that had befallen the land were actual tragedies. Every transformation mask, for example, holds the spirit of someone directly or indirectly killed by Majora. Oh yeah did I mention you get to be 3 different races? Expansion is cool. Something new from something very familiar. Gee. Anyway, that example aside, the game isn't just like "oh lol we're gonna make u crey cuz we can", the game wasn't trying to milk sadness for sadness' sake, it used the sadness to make the triumphs actually worth something. You don't know how many times I'd attempted to help Anju and Kafei (was always just not far enough in the game), and then when I finally did it, after that long, arduous emotional rollercoaster, the ending was just so perfect. The Couple's Mask is essentially useless for everything but a heart piece (and getting the last mask but every mask is needed for that), yet it is by far my most treasured mask of the lot (yes even more than the godlike Bunny Hood).

Isn't that the mark of a good game? A game that will have you connect to an intricate storyline and form a bond with its characters, to the point that rewards which are essentially useless in gameplay are bigger than basically every reward in the game? You are so invested in the story of Anju and Kafei that the reward comes from reuniting them, you actually truly care. Maybe you didn't I dunno I can't speak for everyone, but I rarely honestly give a **** about anybody in games, I mean come on they are games. I certainly didn't really care about anyone in OoT, if anything I kinda liked the villains like Twinrova more than the good guys. This was not the case with Majora's Mask. I have a natural affinity for bad guys, **** I even try to like Majora, and from an artistic standpoint I love him (as in the concept), but do I like Majora? No, I really can't like him. It's not because oh ha he's gonna destroy the world lol, that would have put him in cool tier if it were just that, but that was just a cherry on the most bitter cake ever made. He went out of his way to ruin the lives and happiness of EVERY SINGLE inhabitant of Termina. Yes, everyone. He turned some guy into a kid so he had to run away and not be able to get married. He put a giant boulder in front of the ranch to cut off the town's milk supply and put the ranch in hard times, he murdered someone's son, he poisoned the swamp which screwed over everyone who lived there, he put Snowhead into eternal winter and caused the death of the Goron hero, he polluted the ocean and got pirates to steal a Zora couple's eggs, which caused the Zora man to attempt to take them back. He died for his efforts. I could go on and on.

Majora did nothing but spread misery, and because every character was so real feeling, and every single one was more than just empty polygons, it really hit you hard to see the lives of each person totally ruined. Then to add insult to injury, Majora is going to end all their lives, and they're all going to be miserable when it happens.

What did Ganon do? Apart from Wind Waker when he finally had some goddamn personality, all he's ever done is LOL I AM A BADASS AND I WILL RULE THE WORLD. Cool, aren't you a compelling main villain, totally motivated to want to defeat you.

I'll try and stop here just because I don't want to stay up all night, but Majora's Mask is flat out better than Ocarina of Time. It tells a better story, is a more challenging game with incredible dungeon design (only the Woodfall parts were easy), and more expansive and varied gameplay.

Ocarina gets all this stuff like OH HYRULE FIELD WAS SO EXPANSIVE, IT HAD SO MUCH SCOPE. Oh cool, lots of empty space, that makes it better than Majora's Mask. Okay. Majora's Mask wastes no space, and actually Termina Field was pretty big in its own right, as well as the rest of Termina. MM's unlimited draw distance may have made the game feel a little less enormous since you could always see what you were going towards. Whatever, as if that **** actually matters.

 

[Sephirothxxx]

That post was AWESOME! I read the whole thing... loved it BROTHER.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In quoting you, Teran, I'll be decoloring you to make it easier on the eyes.

It's just kinda odd how Ganon will randomly place a bunch of evil monsters in some temples/dungeons, which just so happen to have a bunch of treasure chests with all the keys and A ****ING ITEM THAT KILLS HIS MONSTER in the dungeon it protects. Like **** Ganon, why don't you, ya know, take the Megaton hammer out of the Fire Temple if you want to the trouble of reviving Volvagia? **** I mean you have the triforce of power and you don't have the ability to jack some treasures, and just sort of conveniently leave them there for Link? Okay. It sort of worked in the 2D games but now it's just kinda dumb how everything conviently just sort of... gets handed to Link in chests, in a way that will allow him to defeat the villain of the dungeon. :/

^This is how every single video game and movie operate. Even on advertisements. There are always new locations to place advertisements.

Well, your article here Teran has helped me see that I never really looked at each Zelda game as a whole all that often. I always lived in the moment. I suppose tradition works for me since I'm more of an impulsive person.

Anyway, the older games certainly have more variety (and innovation as you put it), than the newer games. I can still see Skyward Sword sticking out as being a bit innovative. Although, I guess the 9 directions for sword attacks is a slightly more complicated rehash of the sword angle in 2D zelda. I can cover 270 counterclockwise, but not that last 90 degrees.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Hulk Hogan said some good stuff indeed, I don't think it can be argued against. Majora has its weaknesses, but it has a lot of things that Nintendo needs to reach back for. I'd say a lot more than Ocarina of Time, which doesn't really have these outstanding traits to it, Ocarina of Time is really just one of the most "solid" games out there, but we get all of these interesting games that have so many ups and downs we are getting a little bit more interested in risk-taking and expansion like Hulk said at one point about Majora's. There was even decent size, and with that size more content packed into it than Ocarina, as Hulk said, again. And the dungeons were actually a bit challenging in comparison as well. The hardest in OoT is the Water Temple, and that is because you have to explore and on the 64 it is an annoying process of swapping the metal boots off and on.

The perfect Zelda would have the size of Twilight, the lovable personalities of Skyward, the content and expansion of Majora's, and most of all, cut the traditional formula. Then as I've said before elsewhere, stuff that thing with lore and really tell a story with it all.