Zelda and Zelda/Sheik Hybrid Guide

[spurtz]

I'm just tired of hearing zelda sucks, so I wanted to request people to post their techniques here and give ideas so that we can develop some strategies in using zelda.

I'm going to post my strategy, and so far it's working against some peoples

1. Teleport attacks
I rarely see zelda users using teleport as an attack, it can actually used if an enemy gets too near, or if you wanna trick the enemy into thinking you are just retreating, but you need to be sure of your timing, so you may want to practice it with first with an aggressive cpu or a good player before going online.

2. Switching techniques(defensive)
When using zelda, it is important to constantly use shield and grabs, but overusing it will cause an opponent to predict your move, so sometimes use special neutral or A,A,A followed by a smash.

3 Offensive
We all know the up smash and the jump kick, down smash and dean's fire. I rarely see people use dean's fire in short range, sometimes you can use it in close range, you only need to know when. For example, if you know that the enemy is not hesitating to go full offensive, use dean's fire and neutral b to make him back off.


4 Hybrid Zelda/Shiek
Whenever an enemy is knock far off the air, we can either charge and edge guard, or instead, switch to Shiek.

If you think edge guarding will just harm you switch to Shiek, specially if you know it will take the opponent some 3 to 4 seconds to recover. The idea here is to confuse the opponent, if you play defensive zelda, then suddenly go for an offensive shiek, and if their mindset is still on how to break zelda's defenses, they'll be caught off guard and disoriented, it will take them time to adapt to shiek's fighting style, BUT, you need to be used to switching techniques, otherwise, you'll back fire and die more earlier specially if the opponent your facing is not a n00b, practice takes some time to get use to this technique.

That's all for know. I'll add more if I have time. Please comment and feel free to add alternative techniques and counters from techniques that counters the techniques given.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow this is either a really noobish thread or someone trollin mad hard on an alternate account.

 

[spurtz]

Yeah, I know some of the moves may seem darn risky... and noobish if you insist, but most opponents won't expect a good zelda to use them, since teleports are risky, and it's hard to hit an enemy offensively, but it works at times, preferrably against dashing enemies, specially when you hit from behind or against slow opponents, but of course avoid using it offensively in the air.

And short range din's fire does work, just risky.

These are just my tips and tricks aside from basing my techniques from DarkM, but of course you need to look at the situation, if you know that the opponent will punish the misses from your short range din's fire then don't do it, but it sometimes work, because the opponent will not expect a good zelda to do a din's fire in a short range, sometimes the risk is worth.

...And yes, a very keen player can immediately counter them, so I just said some particularly good users who are not so keen in their hand :D

 

[AzNfinesse]

First, let me say, that I love the enthusiasm. This is what the zelda board needs more of. Regardless of whether or not the ideas are backed with experience or not, this is what we zeldas need more of. Now, being one of the more spirited zelda players, I'll be the good one and actually give constructive criticism towards some of these ideas from my own experience.

1. Teleport attacks
I rarely see zelda users using teleport as an attack, it can actually used if an enemy gets too near, or if you wanna trick the enemy into thinking you are just retreating, but you need to be sure of your timing, so you may want to practice it with first with an aggressive cpu or a good player before going online.

The main reason that most zelda users don't use teleport attacks is because of the low startup time, the high lag before and after each move, and the fact that there is little zelda can do if the opponent can predict where you land. Regardless of who you are playing, EVERY character has an option when zelda approaches with teleport. And every single one of them are BAD.

I personally use teleport as a means of traveling from one side of the stage to the other faster (considering zelda is Slowgirl) or, on rare occasions an OoS option (HAHAHA jus kidding. I would never do that).

2. Switching techniques(defensive)
When using zelda, it is important to constantly use shield and grabs, but overusing it will cause an opponent to predict your move, so sometimes use special neutral or A,A,A followed by a smash.

if by what you mean what zelda players SHOULD be doing, then this is correct. This is really all zelda can do. Her main forms of combat are:

1) grabs/pivot grabs/shield grabs
2) spacing smashes
3) din's camp
4) nair (when below opponents on platforms)
5) dtilt combos

basically this is all you should be doing to rack up damage and going for the occasional LK. Overall, zelda's playstyle is meant to be defensive. If you play her right, she is a pretty strong wall of defense that can be difficult to approach (unless of course you're MK, Olimar, GnW, Snake, or Marth).

3 Offensive
We all know the up smash and the jump kick, down smash and dean's fire. I rarely see people use dean's fire in short range, sometimes you can use it in close range, you only need to know when. For example, if you know that the enemy is not hesitating to go full offensive, use dean's fire and neutral b to make him back off.

4 Hybrid Zelda/Shiek
Whenever an enemy is knock far off the air, we can either charge and edge guard, or instead, switch to Shiek.

If you think edge guarding will just harm you switch to Shiek, specially if you know it will take the opponent some 3 to 4 seconds to recover. The idea here is to confuse the opponent, if you play defensive zelda, then suddenly go for an offensive shiek, and if their mindset is still on how to break zelda's defenses, they'll be caught off guard and disoriented, it will take them time to adapt to shiek's fighting style, BUT, you need to be used to switching techniques, otherwise, you'll back fire and die more earlier specially if the opponent your facing is not a n00b, practice takes some time to get use to this technique.

That's all for know. I'll add more if I have time. Please comment and feel free to add alternative techniques and counters from techniques that counters the techniques given.

the main purpose for the Zelda/Sheik combo is the following

- start the match as sheik and start racking up damage until the opponent is at least 100% (of course, depending on the character)
- knock the opponent far away then transform to zelda
- begin to space smashes and wait for the opportune moment to kill
- switch back to sheik while your opponent revives (at this point all of sheiks moves will be refreshed, and after you transform, zelda's moves will be refreshed.)

Like i said, I love your spirit, and I hope this information helps you.

 

[spurtz]

Thanks for the information, and speaking about mk. Here are some tips. The first one almost had mk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2-4360S1Hk&feature=related

Din's fire madness is very useful against mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TRai935Vz4&feature=related

 

[AzNfinesse]

hmm....well the problem is that MK....isn't exactly at a high level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1X_pTHXYuE

MK's should play more like this...

 

[Bandit]

Her main forms of combat are:

1) grabs/pivot grabs/shield grabs
2) spacing smashes
3) din's camp
4) nair (when below opponents on platforms)
5) dtilt combos

Mine looks different (I ranked mine in order of importance):

1) Dtilt Kill Combos - Damage Rack and Setup Kills
2) Spacing Fsmash - Slow but powerful with no real cool down
3) Usmash when opponent approaches from top or is on platform - Most damage and causes tripping into final hitbox
4) LK Punishment - 19% + Kill Power
5) Dins to Uair Combo (Uthrow to Uair can fit here too) - They are dead at like 80%
6) Dsmash Kills - Dead so early
7) Dins pressure when off ledge - People hate spam
8) Dair - FF Flub to Footstool or Sweetspot are both fantastic and should be used more also FF Flub to LK and Sweetspot Spike over stage to LK
9) Naryu's GTFO - It always throws your opponent in front of you
10) Dins camping - Okay tactic but more of a nuisance
11) Nair - Only used when spacing for bair/fair not good and Uair too slow
12) Dash Attack - 5 frames but heavy cooldown
13) Grabs of any kind - Slow and slow and slow and no kill throw other than Uthrow to Uair combo

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mine looks different (I ranked mine in order of importance):

1) Dtilt Kill Combos - Damage Rack and Setup Kills
2) Spacing Fsmash - Slow but powerful with no real cool down
3) Usmash when opponent approaches from top or is on platform - Most damage and causes tripping into final hitbox
4) LK Punishment - 19% + Kill Power
5) Dins to Uair Combo (Uthrow to Uair can fit here too) - They are dead at like 80%
6) Dsmash Kills - Dead so early
7) Dins pressure when off ledge - People hate spam
8) Dair - FF Flub to Footstool or Sweetspot are both fantastic and should be used more also FF Flub to LK and Sweetspot Spike over stage to LK
9) Naryu's GTFO - It always throws your opponent in front of you
10) Dins camping - Okay tactic but more of a nuisance
11) Nair - Only used when spacing for bair/fair not good and Uair too slow
12) Dash Attack - 5 frames but heavy cooldown
13) Grabs of any kind - Slow and slow and slow and no kill throw other than Uthrow to Uair combo

Nair should be like number 4.

 

[AzNfinesse]

Mine looks different (I ranked mine in order of importance):

1) Dtilt Kill Combos - Damage Rack and Setup Kills
2) Spacing Fsmash - Slow but powerful with no real cool down
3) Usmash when opponent approaches from top or is on platform - Most damage and causes tripping into final hitbox
4) LK Punishment - 19% + Kill Power
5) Dins to Uair Combo (Uthrow to Uair can fit here too) - They are dead at like 80%
6) Dsmash Kills - Dead so early
7) Dins pressure when off ledge - People hate spam
8) Dair - FF Flub to Footstool or Sweetspot are both fantastic and should be used more also FF Flub to LK and Sweetspot Spike over stage to LK
9) Naryu's GTFO - It always throws your opponent in front of you
10) Dins camping - Okay tactic but more of a nuisance
11) Nair - Only used when spacing for bair/fair not good and Uair too slow
12) Dash Attack - 5 frames but heavy cooldown
13) Grabs of any kind - Slow and slow and slow and no kill throw other than Uthrow to Uair combo

mine weren't put in any importance, nor did i mean to get THAT specific with the details. for the most part i agree with these as well. i was jus sayin in general.

edit: although i do disagree with the grabs part. grabs can be a strong damage racking tool if you use it properly (i.e., pivot grabs, proper dthrow combos on heavies, chasing, etc.).

 

[Bandit]

dthrow doesn't combo unless they DI wrong

If they DI slightly down and behind Zelda (or just behind Zelda), then you will never be able to follow up.

Throws are worth like 10% but Dtilt lock is more damage because at min it leads to a 12% dsmash.

Fthrow no combo, Uthrow to Uair depends on %, Dthrow to nothing, Bthrow to nothing

I do agree they should still be used offensively as a change of pace but they are at the bottom of her metagame.

Pivot grab is the slowest grab - 14 frames, dash grab is 11, standing grab is 12.

Dash grab has the most wind down - 27 frames, then Pivot - 20, then standing - 15.

Thanks to Fairy Fountain for the frame data.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

dthrow doesn't combo unless they DI wrong

If they DI slightly down and behind Zelda (or just behind Zelda), then you will never be able to follow up.

Throws are worth like 10% but Dtilt lock is more damage because at min it leads to a 12% dsmash.

Fthrow no combo, Uthrow to Uair depends on %, Dthrow to nothing, Bthrow to nothing

I do agree they should still be used offensively as a change of pace but they are at the bottom of her metagame.

Pivot grab is the slowest grab - 14 frames, dash grab is 11, standing grab is 12.

Dash grab has the most wind down - 27 frames, then Pivot - 20, then standing - 15.

Thanks to Fairy Fountain for the frame data.

That isn't true it depends on how you chase them after a dthrow you can follow up.

 

[Bandit]

I don't know what you are referencing when you said "that isn't true" so I can't help explain.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't know what you are referencing when you said "that isn't true" so I can't help explain.

After a dthrow you can follow up. You just need to know how to chase them.

 

[Veggie123]

11 frames for a dash grab is actually pretty average. I disagree with throws being at the bottom though, since it's the only reliable way to get past an opponent's shield. Compared to other grab games it's poor, but it fares pretty well with the rest of Zelda's moveset.

I always seem to go into grab tangents but I'll make this fast! The flaws of her grabs show the most when she is attempting to shield grab.

/imo

 

[Bandit]

@Veggie, I think they are good for offensive grabbing, but she has no defensive grab game. Run away pivot grab maybe, but she has better defense than that with other moves. Her dash grab is fine for offense since people are going to want to shield your other moves. Mixing this in will leave your smashes more open.

@AL, no, if they DI correctly, there is no follow up. Trust me, this has been tested many times by many people. There is no follow up. BUT if they DI incorrectly, LK their ***.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@AL, no, if they DI correctly, there is no follow up. Trust me, this has been tested many times by many people. There is no follow up. BUT if they DI incorrectly, LK their ***.

I know what you're saying but you can definitely get a regrab from a dthrow or a dash attack. It could be dude to the way my opponents respond/ reacted but I've been able to get at least that much even with proper DI. Also if you're back is to a wall you have a guaranteed follow up no matter how they DI .

 

[Bandit]

There is no regrab if the person you are playing is smart enough to react correctly. There's not enough time.

If you down threw me as Zelda, I would sweetspot Bair you every time you try for a regrab. I'd show you on WiFi, but I don't have that ability since I don't own a Wii.

-----

I'm not saying opponents will DI this correctly, but good players will only screw up one time.

You're not the first person to think there's a string of grabs with Dthrow. I've been told about chain grabs (false), guaranteed LK's (only if they DI up), regrabs (if they DI wrong or don't react when you run at them), etc. They all have been proven false. While you will occasionally get a follow up, this throw has the least amount of damage of all the throws. So everytime you miss a follow up, it's percentage points that you are losing that you could've had.

 

[spurtz]

hmm....well the problem is that MK....isn't exactly at a high level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1X_pTHXYuE

MK's should play more like this...

That's a good player, but I'm not really very impressed with mk, they are not that strong. His B's can be cancelled and so are his attacks, it's just a bit tricky, because mk in the hands of a good player becomes unpredictable, but hey, so is zelda, yes, her moves are predictable, but even if they predict it, dodging will be another thing if they get too close.

It's much worst if you are using ganon to fight him, a good ganon can't match a good mk, but zelda, it can be different.

We very mustn't be threatened by an mk.

Try playing an mk, good mk's cover their weakness very well, but if you tried mk, you'll quickly notice their weakness. Try fighting him with a cpu9 zelda. cpu9's can be good if you give them a chance, the only thing is that cpu9 get's overwhelmed easily if you put pressure on them.

ZELDA ROCKS!!! ))))

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There is no regrab if the person you are playing is smart enough to react correctly. There's not enough time.

If you down threw me as Zelda, I would sweetspot Bair you every time you try for a regrab. I'd show you on WiFi, but I don't have that ability since I don't own a Wii.

-----

I'm not saying opponents will DI this correctly, but good players will only screw up one time.

You're not the first person to think there's a string of grabs with Dthrow. I've been told about chain grabs (false), guaranteed LK's (only if they DI up), regrabs (if they DI wrong or don't react when you run at them), etc. They all have been proven false. While you will occasionally get a follow up, this throw has the least amount of damage of all the throws. So everytime you miss a follow up, it's percentage points that you are losing that you could've had.

See you really need to stop talking down to me as if i'm some type of blubbering idiot it's insulting. Do you really think that if I dash at a character that I won't take into account their bair or nair? That's a pretty bad assumption on you're part. I'll just shield your move and re-grab you. Especially if you're bair sweet spots on my shield. I never said that the follow ups are guaranteed. No that isn't hardly the case. However, if you take into account their DI either they DI properly or they DI it wrong. DI it wrong you have a follow up. DI it properly you chase them. Then after the Chase they have 3 options Jump, land on the ground or do an attack. Depending on the Character the attack can easily be shielded and you can get an easy re-grab. It is important to know which characters have fast bairs or nairs, If they land on the ground they will either fall to the ground where you can Dash attack them or they will land on the ground and shield (opportunity for a regrab). The hardest to deal with is if they jump Zelda has pretty decent air speed so you can try to follow them but if they DJ away from you it's going to be **** near impossible for you to follow up. Simply DIing away doesn't prevent a follow up from Zelda.

 

[Bandit]

See you really need to stop talking down to me as if i'm some type of blubbering idiot it's insulting.

Do you really think that if I dash at a character that I won't take into account their bair or nair? That's a pretty bad assumption on you're part.

Hmm... amazing how you put that in back to back sentences.

I never said that the follow ups are guaranteed. No that isn't hardly the case.

So you're agreeing with me...

DI it wrong you have a follow up.

You're still agreeing with me...

DI it properly you chase them.

I have a feeling this is where it derails...

Then after the Chase they have 3 options Jump, land on the ground or do an attack. Depending on the Character the attack can easily be shielded and you can get an easy re-grab.

Why just 3 options? There are several more inputs than that. Plus, Zelda is slow and slower and they will DI away pretty far...

If they land on the ground they will either fall to the ground where you can Dash attack them or they will land on the ground and shield (opportunity for a regrab).

Dash attack them if they stand there and to nothing... and grab if they stand there and just shield...

Simply DIing away doesn't prevent a follow up from Zelda.

And you contradicted yourself by now saying she always has a follow up.

-----

You were on my ignore list... and I made the mistake of taking you off...

... mistake has now been fixed. Enjoy your life on smashboards. You single handedly have alienated yourself from every knowledgeable Zelda main on the boards.

:bandit:

 

[Veggie123]

@Bandit - Yeah, I agree...they're definitely more offense oriented!

@AL - I get you're saying about the down throw chasing thing. It's really based on what they do so it's more of a "I'm going to guess you're going to do X so I will use Y" which probably works best at low percents so they don't get pushed back so far.

I just find it surprising how a lot of people tend to attack you when you're approaching after a dthrow or something. I usually try to powershield then regrab and dthrow again. Sometimes the opponent tries to attack again after the first throw and then the cycle repeats until they finally catch on and use their second jump. The whole regrab thing works a lot better if you can catch your opponent in midair after they've used their second jump which limits their options a little thus making them more predictable.

Again though it's probably best to use against people who aren't used to your playstyle, most people that play me regularly have caught on now (though I can still chase them sometimes!)

 

[MrEh]

Sometimes, the best thing to do from a Dthrow is nothing. Just stand there and observe your opponent. Hell, you can even run away and shoot Dins. At least it's safe. It's certainly better then whiffing a non-guaranteed followup and getting punished hard.

... mistake has now been fixed. Enjoy your life on smashboards. You single handedly have alienated yourself from every knowledgeable Zelda main on the boards.

So no one then?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@AL - I get you're saying about the down throw chasing thing. It's really based on what they do so it's more of a "I'm going to guess you're going to do X so I will use Y" which probably works best at low percents so they don't get pushed back so far.

I just find it surprising how a lot of people tend to attack you when you're approaching after a dthrow or something. I usually try to powershield then regrab and dthrow again. Sometimes the opponent tries to attack again after the first throw and then the cycle repeats until they finally catch on and use their second jump. The whole regrab thing works a lot better if you can catch your opponent in midair after they've used their second jump which limits their options a little thus making them more predictable.

Again though it's probably best to use against people who aren't used to your playstyle, most people that play me regularly have caught on now (though I can still chase them sometimes!)

I do that also Veggi. If people start getting used to your style then you have to switch it up so instead of a dthrow maybe you do a fthrow or bthrow after a grab. No follow ups from either but it's just a change of pace.

Sometimes, the best thing to do from a Dthrow is nothing. Just stand there and observe your opponent. Hell, you can even run away and shoot Dins. At least it's safe. It's certainly better then whiffing a non-guaranteed followup and getting punished hard.

That is true and is the safest thing to do. However, if you no your opponents options what their character can/can't do after a dthrow then that also you to be a little more aggressive then just have to sit and wait. However, I would like to get back to Bandit's initial claim stating that Zelda has absolutely no follow ups after a dthrow if an opponent just DI's properly that simply isn't true.

 

[KayLo!]

So no one then?

I almost got offended, but then I remembered that I don't main Zelda.

I'm also a lowly scrub.

/cry

@dthrow stuff: I always try to follow up from dthrow, but that's how you do when you play reckless, fun Zelda instead of safe, boring Zelda. Usmash, dash attack, a regrab, or an LK are the best followups, but like everybody's said a thousand times, it heavily depends on your opponent's DI.

Most people, after getting LK'd/usmashed the first time, will just DI away or up/away. 80% of the time, they'll anticipate your followup approach and use their quickest move to try to intercept you -- ex: an Ike will land and jab. Running up with a shield + punish is the best way to get around that.

A lot of people shield too (that whole "lol Zelda has no approach on a shield" mentality), which gets beaten by a regrab, obviously.

Smart people who use their second jump to get away suck. >=(

I dunno, I used to like dthrow chases a lot more (to the point of it being excessive), but now I'm trying to work more uthrows into my game.

 

[MrEh]

Uthrows are great where there's something amazing above you.

Like platforms.

 

[-Mars-]

I just fthrow for the damage in most cases.

 

[JuJux]

I use Fthrow in most cases too. (12% lol ~ )
At low % you can mindgame dash attack or regrab (if the opponent don't jump (and if his character is not floaty lol)), or punish the double jump with Usmash (and you chain it, cause he can't jump after, with prediction of DI), Nair or LK

At middle/high %, it's better to use Dthrow or Uthrow imo.
Dthrow IF your opponent doesn't really know how to DI it, and mindgame a LK, Usmash, re grab or dash attack
Uthrow to mindgame with Uair and LK, use Uair if he doesn't airdodge, or a LK after an airdodge (if he airdodges of course lol!)

 

[MrEh]

The only time I Fthrow is for positioning near a ledge.

 

[JuJux]

Yeah use Fthrow near a ledge is really usefull because the opponent have to use his double jump in most cases and you can punish him. (If he doesn't jump, the dash attack is "guaranted", what is not really good for characters with bad recovery lol.)