Zelda and Sheik: Why?

[Xigger]

Ignoring all present debate concerning Zelda and the Knight, Sheik and Impa, let's ask a different question: Why does Zelda transform into Sheik in the first place? We don't have much information on why they were included the way they are.

My best guess is either that Sakurai wanted Sheik specifically and having the same person as a separate character was undesired (Sheik was made before the clones, mind you,) or that he felt Zelda wouldn't be complete by herself.

 

[moneyfrenzy]

Ignoring all present debate concerning Zelda and the Knight, Sheik and Impa, let's ask a different question: Why does Zelda transform into Sheik in the first place? We don't have much information on why they were included the way they are.

My best guess is either that Sakurai wanted Sheik specifically and having the same person as a separate character was undesired (Sheik was made before the clones, mind you,) or that he felt Zelda wouldn't be complete by herself.

At the time of melee, Shiek was a big part of zelda.

She represented the part of her that could actually fight.

 

[Katy Parry]

At the time of melee, Shiek was a big part of zelda.

She represented the part of her that could actually fight.

This, close thread plz

In the smash world, Zelda still turns into Sheik because that's a part of her character. It's a simple as that.

 

[Xigger]

That's pretty close-minded, don't you think?

For starters, Sheik AND Zelda both did no fighting in Ocarina of Time. There's nothing indicating that Sheik is more of a fighter than Zelda, asides from being a ninja versus a princess, which means squat in Smash Bros. Especially with Peach being a solo Princess.

Secondly, if Zelda didn't fight but Sheik did, that wouldn't make any difference. Zelda fights in Smash Bros. like every other character.

If you don't like this thread, then don't post. I'm asking for thoughts, not opposition.

 

[Katy Parry]

That's pretty close-minded, don't you think?

For starters, Sheik AND Zelda both did no fighting in Ocarina of Time. There's nothing indicating that Sheik is more of a fighter than Zelda, asides from being a ninja versus a princess, which means squat in Smash Bros. Especially with Peach being a solo Princess.

Secondly, if Zelda didn't fight but Sheik did, that wouldn't make any difference. Zelda fights in Smash Bros. like every other character.

If you don't like this thread, then don't post. I'm asking for thoughts, not opposition.

Are you stupid? Zelda didn't fight in OoT? Cause I'm pretty sure she blasted Ganon in the final battle.

You're missing the point entirely. In the smash bros series Zelda and Sheik are one entity. Doesn't matter if they fought or not in any other game. They did in smash brothers.

Making small changes works. Like Mario's down B. They still gave him the original move as his dair. But changing a move to where it completely affects the definition of the character, and affecting ANOTHER character in the process wouldn't happen. Its not being close minded its common sense. Every argument was made before sheik was revealed for brawl and then she was revealed. And since they're not using SS designs, it only further indicates they'll stay as one character.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Well, clearly it is for representation of the two. OoT was (and is) so popular that they included Sheik so fans wouldn't feel shafted. Because, honestly, I felt a little shafted by how little Sheik actually did in OoT (fighting-wise). Smash is all about "what ifs." What if Samus and Mario fought? So, I think Sheik was included do to her popularity and how much people wanted to see her in action. What if Sheik actually fought? What would that be like? I think had something to do with that.

However, I think it was partially to do with wanting a new mechanic as well: transformations.

 

[Fuujin]

Oh look

Another thread about Sheik.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't mind discussions about Sheik because she's an integral part of Zelda's viability in both games.

I have some opinions I would like to share when I get home from work.

 

[DraginHikari]

During the original Melee trailer it was revealed as Sheik was originally going to be the character with no mention of Zelda outside of the vague moment in the introduction movie. Now I don't know if this means they originally planned the combo character setup or if that came about later on but that seems to be how it started.

As far as Zelda/Sheik issue all together, the only real issue I have is the idea of the combo character seemed to be that Sheik was the faster able to build up the damage but not able to easily KO opponents, while Zelda is slower but has a easier time KOing targets. This seems to be seldomly how it actually works as Sheik as a whole has a clear advantage over Zelda in both aspects due to her speed and fact that the transformation between the two characters takes too long to pull off espeically in Brawl. If they could find a way to fix some of those issues the idea of a combo character doesn't bother me at all.

Honestly though, I prefer Zelda to Sheik and if they buffed Zelda at the cost of Sheik I would probably take that too. I'm not even going to try to assuming anything about that at this point given the vagueness we have about Zelda as the pictures they gave more questions then answers.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Why did Zelda transform into Sheik in the first place? Because essentially, Sheik is just a different identity of Zelda's and not her own character. Especially since OoT Zelda was used in Melee.

I dunno about how their character was planned for Melee, but what's important is if both characters compliment each other gameplay wise. The way DraginHikari above puts it makes it sound like both characters trade off different stats for different purposes. Fitting two characters who are great for different things (and maybe even making one more effective over the other ignoring the transform mechanic) doesn't really work well. I don't think I've seen any Zelda player switch between the two just to get those factors out of their character.

Well, we know Zelda's here to stay. I honestly wouldn't mind Sheik having her own slot now. Nor would I mind if it stayed the same Zelda/Sheik dealio.

 

[Ultinarok]

Why Zelda and Sheik? Because why NOT Zelda and Sheik? I think its a pretty cool mechanic overall, and they're still technically two separate fighters so it adds some variety.

 

[finalark]

Ignoring all present debate concerning Zelda and the Knight, Sheik and Impa, let's ask a different question: Why does Zelda transform into Sheik in the first place? We don't have much information on why they were included the way they are.

My best guess is either that Sakurai wanted Sheik specifically and having the same person as a separate character was undesired (Sheik was made before the clones, mind you,) or that he felt Zelda wouldn't be complete by herself.

I'm just gonna copy-paste what I posted in another thread:

"I assume that when Melee was in development Zelda's ability to change into Sheik was meant as being similar to a stance system from other fighting games (I.E. characters get different moves depending on what stance they're in, E.G. Mitsurugi from Soul Calibur)."

Since people ended up exclusively using either Sheik or Zelda, needless to say it was a failure. In other fighting games that have characters with stances you're constantly switching stances to get access to different moves depending on the situation. With Sheik and Zelda that's not really the case.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Sakurai had 8 initially-planned characters for Melee: Peach, Bowser, Mewtwo, Marth, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, Zelda, and Sheik. He added Zelda and Sheik, as well as G&W and the IC as surprise, not-very-requested characters for the roster while the former 4 were requested heavily.

OoT was (and still is) a huge game at the time, and Sakurai was taking Zelda characters from that game, using their models. Ganondorf, Young Link, Sheik, Zelda, and Link were all their OoT incarnations (or YL for MM is debatable). Coincidentally, the four surprising characters Sakurai planned are very unique fighters, with the IC being a tag team, G&W having a moveset based wholly on his little games on his system, and Zelda/Sheik's ability to turn into one another. Sakurai probably wanted to make these characters very unique so they will be well-received.

Look at Villager, the Wii Fit Trainer, and Rosalina. To the majority, they are all very well-received, because of how incredibly unique they are. That's probably what Sakurai wanted to do with Zelda and Sheik.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Sakurai had 8 initially-planned characters for Melee: Peach, Bowser, Mewtwo, Marth, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, Zelda, and Sheik. He added Zelda and Sheik, as well as G&W and the IC as surprise, not-very-requested characters for the roster while the former 4 were requested heavily.

OoT was (and still is) a huge game at the time, and Sakurai was taking Zelda characters from that game, using their models. Ganondorf, Young Link, Sheik, Zelda, and Link were all their OoT incarnations (or YL for MM is debatable). Coincidentally, the four surprising characters Sakurai planned are very unique fighters, with the IC being a tag team, G&W having a moveset based wholly on his little games on his system, and Zelda/Sheik's ability to turn into one another. Sakurai probably wanted to make these characters very unique so they will be well-received.

Look at Villager, the Wii Fit Trainer, and Rosalina. To the majority, they are all very well-received, because of how incredibly unique they are. That's probably what Sakurai wanted to do with Zelda and Sheik.

Were does ganondorf becoming a captain falcon clone come into this

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, if I remember well, clones weren't planned at first (hence, the fact they are clones: new models, some properties change and voila: a new character!). In OoT, Ganondorf is never seen weilding a weapon. During his boss fight, he mainly sends you energy balls and punch the ground. The Ganondorf moveset goes pretty well with OoT Ganondorf in fact!

 

[Sonicguy726]

Well, if I remember well, clones weren't planned at first (hence, the fact they are clones: new models, some properties change and voila: a new character!). In OoT, Ganondorf is never seen weilding a weapon. During his boss fight, he mainly sends you energy balls and punch the ground. The Ganondorf moveset goes pretty well with OoT Ganondorf in fact!

But if you look at his melee artwork he has that huge sword which is based off the one in the spaceworld demo so why doesn't he use that?

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Because... hm... It is a clone maybe?

 

[Ryan.]

I never knew who Sheik was when I first started playing Melee, but I think I would prefer Sheik as a separate character and not a transformation, although I can see why Sakurai made it that way. I love how Zelda started the transformations though, I think it made her the most unique character in Melee.

 

[Zeldaisthegirl]

I think they should keep it, would be kind of sad to see Zelda lose such a unique part of her move set.
…am I the only one who uses both Zelda & Shiek?

 

[ぱみゅ]

No, you're not.
I try to, but my Sheik is bad and it's difficult to find a good chance to transform.

 

[Zeldaisthegirl]

Well the WiiU is more powerful, so transforming should be faster this time around, at least I would think so?

 

[Sonicguy726]

Well the WiiU is more powerful, so transforming should be faster this time around, at least I would think so?

What does the wii u being more powerful have to do with it, it was much faster in melee

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well the WiiU is more powerful, so transforming should be faster this time around, at least I would think so?

What does the wii u being more powerful have to do with it, it was much faster in melee

I think Brawl was pushing the Wii to it's limits, with the double-layered disc. As you say, Sonicguy, Melee's transformation was much faster, compared to Brawl's painful transformations.

 

[Sonicguy726]

I think Brawl was pushing the Wii to it's limits, with the double-layered disc. As you say, Sonicguy, Melee's transformation was much faster, compared to Brawl's painful transformations.

But speeding up a move wouldn't really be pushing it

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

But speeding up a move wouldn't really be pushing it

Well, if you listen to your wii, it's sounds like it's "searching" Sheik's 3D model.

Try doing a battle with Zelda against another character (as long as it's not Sheik). Then, do a battle with Zelda against Sheik and try to transform. You'll see that if Sheik is already there, it takes less time to transform.

 

[Curious Villager]

Zelda transforms more or less right away when you pause the game for a little bit during her transformation animation. However, it causes some odd stuff to happen during replays. Or so I've heard...

 

[ぱみゅ]

And that's why certain mods like Balanced Brawl included files for Zelda and Sheik (and PT and ZSS), to help the game load faster.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

My guess is that TC missed the part in Ocarina of Time where Sheik transforms back to Zelda.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Should I mention that it's not the same Zelda that transforms into Sheik? Skeil was only in Ocarina of Time, not Twilight Princess.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

It's the same one though, going by Brawl and we can clearly see one turn into the other. They were just given a separate slot this time.
And that Sheik design was based on some concept art for Twilight Princess. It's basically what it could have been if she ever appeared in that game.