::: Z E R O 2 D ::: -- now with 100% more M3D

[FrozenHobo]

I have a question. Is this limited to Nintendo characters and stages or just anything?

i have the same question. will it be like brawl where we can have 3rd party characters as long as they've been on a nintendo platform or are we going full on Master Chief here?

 

[stingers]

Ummm...question.

Since you're letting people make their own characters and stuff, if you go online and you have a character the other person doesn't, will you still be able to use that character?

 

[Demacrez]

My only question is how is this gonna be done? We boot up Brawl with the info on SD cards or are we gonna burn the info into a DVD-R?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

i have the same question. will it be like brawl where we can have 3rd party characters as long as they've been on a nintendo platform or are we going full on Master Chief here?

Full on Master Chief.

Ummm...question.

Since you're letting people make their own characters and stuff, if you go online and you have a character the other person doesn't, will you still be able to use that character?

Depends on the settings. I would like to see the game have a feature where it automatically downloads the opponent's character.

My only question is how is this gonna be done? We boot up Brawl with the info on SD cards or are we gonna burn the info into a DVD-R?

Please read the beginning of this thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240227

 

[stingers]

I think the whole...player created character thing is a horrible idea anyway. You know how well that turned out in MUGEN. It'd be so so so so so much better if you guys just created characters and locked it off.

 

[Kris121]

I think the whole...player created character thing is a horrible idea anyway. You know how well that turned out in MUGEN. It'd be so so so so so much better if you guys just created characters and locked it off.

I think that they will Make a set of characters and anyone will be able to make characters. They can make updates and an approved character list I guess so that people can make characters but they can have a solid base. IDK Thats my guess. Also If I wanted to help this project which language of programming should i learn. C++ or something else? Cause I want to do something this summer. Also

SUPER SMASH BROS CUSTOM!
By: Thebuzzsaw

I'll make a logo...

 

[stingers]

The endless creation of characters will just end up making this very....boring.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I think the whole...player created character thing is a horrible idea anyway. You know how well that turned out in MUGEN. It'd be so so so so so much better if you guys just created characters and locked it off.

You make it sound like you were forced to play MUGEN in a way that you didn't like. LOL! Options are good. But yes, there will be a "locked off" set of official characters as well.

 

[stingers]

It's not fun trying to have a friendly match with someone and being forced to play their favorite retardedly overpowered character over and over and over <.<

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It's not fun trying to have a friendly match with someone and being forced to play their favorite retardedly overpowered character over and over and over <.<

Your friend doesn't have the decency to play on more equal footing? That sounds more like a friend issue than a game design problem. >_>

 

[stingers]

Humans will be humans. I wouldn't expect anything beneficial to the game to come from a custom character creator, from a competitive standpoint. I realize it's asking more work from you guys to create the whole roster yourselves, but it's obviously going to create a more balanced game.

If I'm misunderstanding this project and it's supposed to be something akin to Brawl that you can have "lulzy fun fun" with, please add in items. I like items :x

 

[cAm8ooo]

In my personal opinion i would much more like this being a Nintendo thing so that we are at least limited to the same type of genre. Seeing Master Chief fight homer simpson is not exactly cool. You also have the problem of choosing characters for the official set. There are two or three cool pokemon but u also have 100000 other genres and you have to have a lot of variety. You can have a lot of variety if you have a very large number of fighters but i think about 60 characters should be the max for the official build of the game.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Humans will be humans. I wouldn't expect anything beneficial to the game to come from a custom character creator, from a competitive standpoint. I realize it's asking more work from you guys to create the whole roster yourselves, but it's obviously going to create a more balanced game.

If I'm misunderstanding this project and it's supposed to be something akin to Brawl that you can have "lulzy fun fun" with, please add in items. I like items :x

This game will have a competitive focus. However, we are merely seeking the assistance of the community in coming up with the art/audio for various fighters. In order to do this, we need a generic fighter plugin system. There will be an official competitive roster cut off from the rest of the idiotic lulzy characters. This will permit players to request "competitive" matches instead of garbage matches with dumb characters.

However, to outright prevent people from inserting characters would be damaging to the game. What if someone is in the process of building a competitive fighter but needs to test him/her? Should he/she be blocked until the approval process?

As for the character choices, the official roster will be limited to a custom universe. No, there will be no Link fighting Master Chief in the official roster.

 

[Red Arremer]

I can help from the "sidelines" - storyline, character design (even if it won't be fancy arts or something), character background, moveset ideas/design, locations - stuff like that.
You have my MSN, Buzz... if you want to talk to me about it, be sure to tell me.

I can't draw/sprite/animate, but I can describe well, and I've written several stories for games (made by some people, lol, nothing official) already, so I might be able to come up with something nice. Besides this, I have lots of roleplaying experience, so I know how to express well, develop characters and their personalities, etc., so yea... if that counts for something, I'd be glad to support you.

 

[cAm8ooo]

As for the character choices, the official roster will be limited to a custom universe. No, there will be no Link fighting Master Chief in the official roster.

Ok. Now i like

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I can help from the "sidelines" - storyline, character design (even if it won't be fancy arts or something), character background, moveset ideas/design, locations - stuff like that.
You have my MSN, Buzz... if you want to talk to me about it, be sure to tell me.

I can't draw/sprite/animate, but I can describe well, and I've written several stories for games (made by some people, lol, nothing official) already, so I might be able to come up with something nice.

I am all for a story mode to give the characters some back story. Unfortunately, such modes will have to be lower on the priority list. The core engine needs to be built right, but a story mode can quickly follow while everyone else balances the characters. XD

 

[Red Arremer]

I am all for a story mode to give the characters some back story. Unfortunately, such modes will have to be lower on the priority list. The core engine needs to be built right, but a story mode can quickly follow while everyone else balances the characters. XD

Well I'm not only speaking of a storyline of course, but also character design (i.e. character A who's a fighter and uses these kind of attacks, character B who's a dwagon and spits firebawls, etc.). Just general ideas, of course, and move ideas, as well as playstyle ideas.
But as said, I'm not able to graphically depict something, so I'll have to resort to descriptions.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well I'm not only speaking of a storyline of course, but also character design (i.e. character A who's a fighter and uses these kind of attacks, character B who's a dwagon and spits firebawls, etc.). Just general ideas, of course, and move ideas, as well as playstyle ideas.
But as said, I'm not able to graphically depict something, so I'll have to resort to descriptions.

Well, start thinking of a rudimentary martial artist followed by a run-of-the-mill swordsman (first two test characters for when the code base launches).

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, start thinking of a rudimentary martial artist followed by a run-of-the-mill swordsman (first two test characters for when the code base launches).

So 2 generic characters. Okay. I'll give it a few thoughts in terms of design.
I'd also appreciate if you sent me a PM of what stuff I should include, respectively what button inputs these characters should get (i.e. more like Smash with Tilts and Aerials or more like Street Fighter with Punch-button, Kick-button), and I'll try to write you up some basic stuff.

Sound good?

 

[Wavedash Master]

I know this project is going to have a smash-like physics, but my question to you is what smash game are the physics going to be like? The three smash games physics are vastly different from each other. Not everybody is going to like so-and-so's physics. What is your standpoint in this?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

So 2 generic characters. Okay. I'll give it a few thoughts in terms of design.
I'd also appreciate if you sent me a PM of what stuff I should include, respectively what button inputs these characters should get (i.e. more like Smash with Tilts and Aerials or more like Street Fighter with Punch-button, Kick-button), and I'll try to write you up some basic stuff.

Sound good?

I'll PM you any specifics for sure. For now, just assume basic smash physics (jabs, tilts, smashes, and aerials).

I know this project is going to have a smash-like physics, but my question to you is what smash game are the physics going to be like? The three smash games physics are vastly different from each other. Not everybody is going to like so-and-so's physics. What is your standpoint in this?

I plan to go-by-feel on this one. I am strongly biased in favor of the Melee style of physics (generally fast paced, high gravity, etc.), but I may mix-and-match as things progress. I see the action in my head, but I'm not sure how it will translate into reality.

I don't want to make any promises (aside from the massive one I've already made in committing to this project). Just know that I intend to focus on making a truly epic experience. I want the game to be fun, but I'm not aiming for Sakurai-style lulz factor. "Fun" should be a natural side effect of the game, not a manually inserted aspect (TRIPPING!).

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You had me at "Full smash game with usable online play".

I'll definitely be following this.

 

[AltF4]

Okay! This might end up being long winded and hard to understand, but bear with me!

As I've mentioned to Buzz, we're dealing with a fighting game, not Halo. Halo sends hundred upon hundreds of the same packets over and over, so when some are lost, no one but the extremely anal people notice it.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. Halo doesn't send redundant packets. And I most certainly DO notice when packets are lost. All the time.

Halo sends each bullet as a separate packet. Each one has the opportunity to get lost. Normally when you shoot a Battle Rifle, it shoots 3 round bursts. The weapon has max ammo of 36. So your current ammo should logically always be a multiple of 3. And in LAN this is true.

But online, poor network conditions can cause an individual bullet to get lost. When that happens, the game refunds you for the lost bullet and puts it back into your gun! So you will quite frequently (Almost all the time) notice that your BR has a number of bullets in it that is not a multiple of 3.

As such, making the fights Synchronous/Centralized/TCP would be the best configuration.

With this being a fighting game, a single action could decide the entire outcome of a match[if we have 0-death combos, anyways], and if you use UDP, its basically like adding tripping...a random chance to have your action, any action, not be registered and you may or may not be subsequently punished for it.

I am partial to toward going the other route, actually. Using UDP over TCP, that is. Recall that each action will be a separate TCP connection. So you're looking at 4 times as much latency for TCP over UDP.

Of course the chances of this happening are decreased with better latency/ping/bandwidth/whathaveyou. But you can't keep these things static, most of the time, so lost packets are bound to cause problems, which will eventually lead to frustrating game play.

TCP will slow it down a bit, but as long as everyone has a decent amount of bandwidth available to them, the client-server connection with TCP won't be a big hindrance on gameplay.

Well, no be careful here. Bandwith and latency are totally different. This might be where you're missing some of the problem.

Latency is the time it takes one message to reach your target. This is the "ping" as you put it. Bandwith it the total throughput of the connection.

Bandwith is not an issue. At all. This game is going to use a negligible about of total bandwith. The issue is latency and reliability. Even a "fast" internet connection can have latencies of 150ms to a reasonably distant target. That by itself is okay, but if you have to multiply that by 4, you're suddenly looking at 600ms of latency. That is quite significant.


I am also partial right now to using an asynchronous game scheme. In my experience with competitive smash, even the smallest amount of noticeable input delay ruins the game. A small amount of erratic character movement does not, however.

I love to hear dissenting opinion, though.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I'm pretty sure that's not true. Halo doesn't send redundant packets. And I most certainly DO notice when packets are lost. All the time.

Halo sends each bullet as a separate packet. Each one has the opportunity to get lost. Normally when you shoot a Battle Rifle, it shoots 3 round bursts. The weapon has max ammo of 36. So your current ammo should logically always be a multiple of 3. And in LAN this is true.

But online, poor network conditions can cause an individual bullet to get lost. When that happens, the game refunds you for the lost bullet and puts it back into your gun! So you will quite frequently (Almost all the time) notice that your BR has a number of bullets in it that is not a multiple of 3.

Well see, I never noticed that!
:3

I am partial to toward going the other route, actually. Using UDP over TCP, that is. Recall that each action will be a separate TCP connection. So you're looking at 4 times as much latency for TCP over UDP.

I see...
Didn't realize it was 4x.

My only issue was there being no good way to compensate for the lost packets, unless you send multiples of each and have the redundant ones dropped.

My only worry is that Player1 goes for a perfect shield, and because of a lost packet, he doesn't shield at all and get's hit, and multiply that by however many times you lose a packet, and we could end up with some pretty frustrating net play.

Well, no be careful here. Bandwith and latency are totally different. This might be where you're missing some of the problem.

Latency is the time it takes one message to reach your target. This is the "ping" as you put it. Bandwith it the total throughput of the connection.

Bandwith is not an issue. At all. This game is going to use a negligible about of total bandwith. The issue is latency and reliability. Even a "fast" internet connection can have latencies of 150ms to a reasonably distant target. That by itself is okay, but if you have to multiply that by 4, you're suddenly looking at 600ms of latency. That is quite significant.


I am also partial right now to using an asynchronous game scheme. In my experience with competitive smash, even the smallest amount of noticeable input delay ruins the game. A small amount of erratic character movement does not, however.

I love to hear dissenting opinion, though.

o_o Well, I know the game wasn't going to take up bandwidth, I was just talking about all the background programs eating it up. Like when I'm downloading something and forget to pause it when I go to play something >_>.

And I suppose Asynch will work out just fine, I was just stating my preference. :3

-DD

 

[AltF4]

Yea, TCP has 4 times the latency as UDP. TCP has to do a 3 way handshake, THEN transmit the data. And if there are any errors in data sends, it will retransmit, too. So that's at LEAST four times as much latency. If there are any retranmits, it will be even more.

UDP just sends the data. Boom, one way ticket to the other computer. No guarantees that it will get there, though.

I think testing will have to tell how much these things matter. It may turn out to be that way too many actions are being dropped, and the game suffers. In which case we'll come up with a reliability plan. Sending double packets may in fact be a good idea! It would double the bandwidth of the connection. But we don't care about bandwidth much since we're hardly using any. It would not affect latency at all, though.

But for now I'd like to stick to what seem to be the simplest to implement. Then tack on some extra features afterward after it's discovered that we need it.


Also keep in mind that if your connection just plain sucks, there's not much we can do. Your overall experience is going to suffer. It's just a matter of choosing how to make the poor connection appear to the player.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The more I hear you guys discuss the matter, the more I think there should just be a TCP/UDP switch with a few advanced network settings. It just seems to me that TCP would win in certain situations while UDP would win others. Maybe we should leave that up to the player...?

 

[AltF4]

Perhaps. It would involve more coding, of course. I don't know MUCH more, though. It's hard to say right now, but I don't think it would be too much more work. If you think it would be worth it, I could probably make it happen.

Do you think the typical user would be able to understand the difference?

 

[NintenJoe]

Will it have customizable controls? For example, could I plug in an XBox 360 controller into my USB drive and use that to play?

The project sounds very much like Smash Flash: a concept similar to the super smash bros. series but with added characters, stages, etc. Will this game have completely new characters or just video game characters?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Perhaps. It would involve more coding, of course. I don't know MUCH more, though. It's hard to say right now, but I don't think it would be too much more work. If you think it would be worth it, I could probably make it happen.

Do you think the typical user would be able to understand the difference?

Well, what would be the downsides to having a TCP/UDP switch? Confuse users? I'm not insistent on having both. I'm just throwing the idea out there as I see clear benefits to both.

Will it have customizable controls? For example, could I plug in an XBox 360 controller into my USB drive and use that to play?

That is definitely one of the goals. I have a Logitech gamepad that I intend on using. We will work to support as many game controllers as possible!

The project sounds very much like Smash Flash: a concept similar to the super smash bros. series but with added characters, stages, etc. Will this game have completely new characters or just video game characters?

The focus will be on completely new characters (for legal/IP reasons), but I'm sure avid smash fans will produce Nintendo favorites (I don't care what anyone says; I'm downloading Link once he's available). The difference in this project is that it will be built using C++ as a real standalone application. Flash really is not a good choice for this kind of game. :-/

 

[Toadster5]

I think if we ever want to see high quality games again they will come in the form of projects like these. This sounds really exciting.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Woooo! Put the switch in!

But yea, put the switch in later...right now just set it up how AltF4 wants it.
-DD

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm already working on the first two characters that will be the two central and - as of now - main characters.
I already have a few ideas in mind for other additions, and I'm hoping that the roster will become diverse and interesting, yet not ridiculously so (like MUGEN and its over 9000 characters), with my ideas and playstyle concepts. :3

 

[Zolga Owns]

I can do graphics
I could make a logo, and when you get around to a website that too.

I also cold help design some ingame screens or something.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

As an aspiring game designer, I would be more than happy to help you guys come up with some character concepts. =)

 

[Kris121]

As an aspiring game designer, I would be more than happy to help you guys come up with some character concepts. =)

Aye same here!

 

[NintenJoe]

I don't do programming (yet) but I have messed around with game maker and made a few games. I definately cannot help with the programming portion, but I could help with character concepts if needed.

 

[Red Arremer]

Thanks for the offers - right now, though, we are aiming to get the first basic system done with our 2 basic characters. This is the most important part, and we won't need more character concepts or something among the lines to work with as of now.
As soon as we are "ready to go" to expand the roster above these 2 guys (who already are in the writing works, and planned out in terms of playstyle), I will be open to suggestions and all that stuff.
Thanks for the offers, though, I'll get back to you as soon as we have everything done we have set for our goals now.

More importantly we need sprite artists, as we severely lack them. So if you are a spriter, be sure to contact us.

 

[AltF4]

Let's talk a little about development.

Are you going to set up an SVN server for the codebase or something, Buzz? Also, do you have a preferred IDE? Just for the sake of consistency. I've only done C++ in either Visual Studio (yuck, Microsoft) or just a plain old text editor.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Let's talk a little about development.

Are you going to set up an SVN server for the codebase or something, Buzz? Also, do you have a preferred IDE? Just for the sake of consistency. I've only done C++ in either Visual Studio (yuck, Microsoft) or just a plain old text editor.

Definite yes on the SVN hosting. I plan on using Google Code once I come up with a name.

I plan on using NetBeans for my IDE. It is unfortunate that I have resorted to such a bloated/slow tool for development, but NetBeans has unrivalled code completion and various toolkits. I am open to alternatives, but right now NB has everything I need (including excellent SVN integration). I will do all development in Ubuntu.

As the code base begins to mature, I will need a team dedicated to creating binary packages for Windows and Mac (for each release). I will head up the Linux team! ^_^

 

[youtuberocks]

YAY mac support. glad that people still support it at least a little.