Your Opinions on Patch 1.1.1?

[Karsticles]

Yeah by shielding. I would dash dance away but this game doesn't allow that. Having weak Melee shields in a game that doesn't at all play like Melee. Oh well, maybe next patch we will get dash dancing at least then.

I would love dash dancing to come back, but there are many other options besides shielding. Choose an angle of approach outside of the hitbox, stand outside of the attack and dash grab punish, etc.

I was hyped about the shield stun. The Luigi nerf was horrible. I talked to my friends about it for hours

Luigi KOs Mewtwo at 70% off of a grab. THAT is horrible.

 

[Quarium]

Not really. The only characters with an honest, crippling lack of kill moves are Falco, Luigi and Jigglypuff. Everybody else has some other reliable method of killing. If not, they have something that makes up for it, like Lucario and Sheik.

Wrong.

COUGH COUGH

Falco, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Ganondorf, Zelda, Samus, Yoshi, Palutena, Peach, Mr. Game and Watch, Bowser, King Dedede, Marth/Lucina, Ike, Bowser jr, Shulk and it surely goes on.

These are all characters that have no real confirms at kill percent, or have to perform something that in turn puts them at a risk upon whiffing(whatever level of risk it might be but it is usually punishable)

Luigi didn't need to be able to confirm a kill out of a throw, same as I honestly think Sheik should not be able to Dthrow you into a guessing game for your life(you jump or airdodge and the other upairs or uses vanish. Look at all this SKILL in guessing), or everyone has it or nobody has it! That's how it should be.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Wrong.

COUGH COUGH

Falco, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Ganondorf, Zelda, Samus, Yoshi, Palutena, Peach, Mr. Game and Watch, Bowser, King Dedede, Marth/Lucina, Ike, Bowser jr, Shulk and it surely goes on.

These are all characters that have no real confirms at kill percent, or have to perform something that in turn puts them at a risk upon whiffing(whatever level of risk it might be but it is usually punishable)

Luigi didn't need to be able to confirm a kill out of a throw, same as I honestly think Sheik should not be able to Dthrow you into a guessing game for your life(you jump or airdodge and the other upairs or uses vanish. Look at all this SKILL in guessing), or everyone has it or nobody has it! That's how it should be.

Kirby can literally spam smash attacks until one of them hits, literally all but three of Ganondorf's moves kill, Zelda just has to press up and B to kill you at 70%, Samus has Charge Shot and Screw Attack, Yoshi can spam his up smash that has like no lag, Palutena has very powerful smash attacks and an up air that KOs at around 80%, 4 out of Peach's 5 aerials kill and they all have no lag, G&W has an invincible up smash with no ending lag, and a freakishly powerful forward smash, Bowser, Dedede and Ike I hope you're joking, Marth can kill you at 60% without Rage, Shulk has Smash Art, and Bowser Jr. has three very powerful smash attacks and a very good offstage game.

 

[Solutionme]

Wrong.

COUGH COUGH

Falco, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Ganondorf, Zelda, Samus, Yoshi, Palutena, Peach, Mr. Game and Watch, Bowser, King Dedede, Marth/Lucina, Ike, Bowser jr, Shulk and it surely goes on.

These are all characters that have no real confirms at kill percent, or have to perform something that in turn puts them at a risk upon whiffing(whatever level of risk it might be but it is usually punishable)

Luigi didn't need to be able to confirm a kill out of a throw, same as I honestly think Sheik should not be able to Dthrow you into a guessing game for your life(you jump or airdodge and the other upairs or uses vanish. Look at all this SKILL in guessing), or everyone has it or nobody has it! That's how it should be.

Wrong about a good portion of those.

-Ike can just space with f-tilt and auto-cancel fair and bair, no real risk. You don't use his smash attacks to kill unless you're sure and eruption pretty much claims your win with a ledge trump assuming you miss the bair. Btw uair covers air dodges reaaaaallllllyyyy well especially if you fast fall it at the right time.

-Ganondorf in the current patch can basically get you stuck in shield with u-smash spam, and his bair also autocancels, but that's where it ends. Nothing else about can be considered safe unless you auto-cancel uair and even go as far as hitting with the latent hitbox of it. Btw U-smash ends pretty damn early so using it with a mix of uair and bair when someone lands guarantees a hit or two.

-Mr.Game and Watch literally just needs to spam d-throw and side-b, he also has easy set-ups with bucket on projectile characters and his u-smash has invincibility, meaning you have to absolutely respect him when he is under you, a very easy kill confirm.

-King Dedede has good kill confirms with gordos due to edgeguarding, uair due to the long amount of active frames and the insane range making it very hard to avoid getting hit by, and a jab akin to DK's which traps you in and lets him set-up nicely for kills and grabs.

-Marth/Lucina only have jab. That's pretty much all I have to say, only set-up tool for confirms they can use reliably, uair footstool dair spikes to tipped f-smash or u-smash are too hard and unreliable to get. Also up-b OoS if they whiff on shield, but that one is slightly putting you at risk. At around 120%, you can also use an untipped d-tilt for a tech situation and assuming they miss the tech, you can u-smash them so there is another kill confirm.

-Kirby has dair, seriously what made you put him there? Dair leads to every single thing, including a shield break with a SH down-b if your opponent is keen on staying in it.

-Zelda pretty much only has up-b OoS for a good kill confirm. Which btw she has the ability to reliably mix-up well by teleporting in spot to the left or right of her, or up above, she can also control the distance to some extent using the floor. It has very little risk obviously but in the long run it helps, I also believe her d-tilt is kind of ok.

-Shulk's monados make him so adaptable that he can literally wall of death you to the blast zone or break your shield easily, there is quite literally no reason to put him there.

I'd also include Falco and Samus, but I'm tired of typing a paragrah and I really have no reason to include Yoshi because again why put him there? Yoshi has kill confirms, you just never played a good Yoshi. Falco has a very strong off-stage game and can get kill confirms with dair assuming you know the quirks. Samus literally has projectiles and bair to space with, and I believe you can combo zair to u-smash with her at higher percents, giving her a kill confirm, also her u-tilt spikes.

 

[Quarium]

Wrong about a good portion of those.

-Ike can just space with f-tilt and auto-cancel fair and bair, no real risk. You don't use his smash attacks to kill unless you're sure and eruption pretty much claims your win with a ledge trump assuming you miss the bair. Btw uair covers air dodges reaaaaallllllyyyy well especially if you fast fall it at the right time.

-Ganondorf in the current patch can basically get you stuck in shield with u-smash spam, and his bair also autocancels, but that's where it ends. Nothing else about can be considered safe unless you auto-cancel uair and even go as far as hitting with the latent hitbox of it. Btw U-smash ends pretty damn early so using it with a mix of uair and bair when someone lands guarantees a hit or two.

-Mr.Game and Watch literally just needs to spam d-throw and side-b, he also has easy set-ups with bucket on projectile characters and his u-smash has invincibility, meaning you have to absolutely respect him when he is under you, a very easy kill confirm.

-King Dedede has good kill confirms with gordos due to edgeguarding, uair due to the long amount of active frames and the insane range making it very hard to avoid getting hit by, and a jab akin to DK's which traps you in and lets him set-up nicely for kills and grabs.

-Marth/Lucina only have jab. That's pretty much all I have to say, only set-up tool for confirms they can use reliably, uair footstool dair spikes to tipped f-smash or u-smash are too hard and unreliable to get. Also up-b OoS if they whiff on shield, but that one is slightly putting you at risk. At around 120%, you can also use an untipped d-tilt for a tech situation and assuming they miss the tech, you can u-smash them so there is another kill confirm.

-Kirby has dair, seriously what made you put him there? Dair leads to every single thing, including a shield break with a SH down-b if your opponent is keen on staying in it.

-Zelda pretty much only has up-b OoS for a good kill confirm. Which btw she has the ability to reliably mix-up well by teleporting in spot to the left or right of her, or up above, she can also control the distance to some extent using the floor. It has very little risk obviously but in the long run it helps, I also believe her d-tilt is kind of ok.

-Shulk's monados make him so adaptable that he can literally wall of death you to the blast zone or break your shield easily, there is quite literally no reason to put him there.

I'd also include Falco and Samus, but I'm tired of typing a paragrah and I really have no reason to include Yoshi because again why put him there? Yoshi has kill confirms, you just never played a good Yoshi. Falco has a very strong off-stage game and can get kill confirms with dair assuming you know the quirks. Samus literally has projectiles and bair to space with, and I believe you can combo zair to u-smash with her at higher percents, giving her a kill confirm, also her u-tilt spikes.

Kirby can literally spam smash attacks until one of them hits, literally all but three of Ganondorf's moves kill, Zelda just has to press up and B to kill you at 70%, Samus has Charge Shot and Screw Attack, Yoshi can spam his up smash that has like no lag, Palutena has very powerful smash attacks and an up air that KOs at around 80%, 4 out of Peach's 5 aerials kill and they all have no lag, G&W has an invincible up smash with no ending lag, and a freakishly powerful forward smash, Bowser, Dedede and Ike I hope you're joking, Marth can kill you at 60% without Rage, Shulk has Smash Art, and Bowser Jr. has three very powerful smash attacks and a very good offstage game.

These are different because yes they work but none are assured. Like Kirby's dair for example, upon getting hit by it if you simply DI outwards you will get outside dsmash range and you have enough time to put up shield agaisnt a dtilt, rock transformation is very slow as well, enough for you to just let yourself get hit or even roll away if the kirby short hops down b after the dair. Just ask anyone in the Kirby boards about what are Kirby's ''confirmations'' for a kill and see them sigh collectivelly.

I believe you are getting confirmation confused with setups or conditioning through spacing, etc. These are things that might as well work a good bunch of times due to skill but they aren't assured by any means, not like Sheik's Dthrow to whatever setup and past patch Luigi's dthrow to tornado or heck even a weak dtilt to True Shoryuken as Ryu! THOSE ARE kill confirms(Sheik's is 50/50 but it is still kinda silly)

You can't Dthrow as Ike and be sure you will hit a fair or up air at kill percent.

None of Kirby's moves set you up for a free kill after connecting at kill percents.

Catch my drift now?

My point was that the Luigi nerf seems fair, as he is now pretty much with options similar to the characters you and I were listing off just now(hope the same happens to sheik).

 

[RANDOM_Stranger]

I'm pretty hyped about this patch. I also hope this will change the competive scene to the better.

Also, Jigglypuff got a lot better. It's now much more safe to use the aerial attacks that would before lead into punishes.

 

[Green L]

My point was that the Luigi nerf seems fair, as he is now pretty much with options similar to the characters you and I were listing off just now(hope the same happens to sheik)

No the luigi nerf wasn't fair. Luigi has such obvious flaws so he wasn't overpowered. You could SPOTDODGE luigi's grabs. Pre patch luigi had an equal amount of strengths and weaknesses but now luigi lost much more than down throw down b

 

[LancerStaff]

No the luigi nerf wasn't fair. Luigi has such obvious flaws so he wasn't overpowered. You could SPOTDODGE luigi's grabs. Pre patch luigi had an equal amount of strengths and weaknesses but now luigi lost much more than down throw down b

Still say anybody above the exact middle is fair game for a nerf.

 

[Solutionme]

I'm pretty hyped about this patch. I also hope this will change the competive scene to the better.

Also, Jigglypuff got a lot better. It's now much more safe to use the aerial attacks that would before lead into punishes.

Pound is actually safe now and because the shield damage didn't get nerfed helps her deal with shields better. But in reality she still needs a combo and kill throw. Her dair also needs to be consistent in where it sends you, which would improve it's combo ability. Preferably behind her to use as a set-up for bair.

 

[Green L]

But in reality she still needs a combo and kill throw

Smash 4 is all ready filled to the brim with "throw combos". What's wrong with non grab combos? There aren't alot of those in sm4sh.

 

[Solutionme]

You don't understand, jiggs literally has no setups to kill with rest. She also doesn't have the same combo game as the top tiers despite being the lightest in weight. It makes no sense.

 

[Travitoninja99]

When you say kill throw, do you mean a combo throw leading to rest, or the literal sense of killing off screen? Because I completely disagree with latter, but completely agree with the former.

 

[Solutionme]

Why'd you assume killing off-screen? None of what I said relates to that idea, otherwise yes. She only has dair for rest at kill percents and even then not only is it hard to set-up cause they need to be in the air, it also sends them left or right, making it very unreliable. u-tilt and uair only work up to 20% on average and that isn't close enough for killing. They need to make her a better comeback character for her to be good imo.

 

[Green L]

She only has dair for rest at kill percents and even then not only is it hard to set-up cause they need to be in the air, it also sends them left or right, making it very unreliable. u-tilt and uair only work up to 20% on average and that isn't close enough for killing. They need to make her a better comeback character for her to be good imo.

You probably just need to follow their di for the dair set up.

 

[Solutionme]

You probably just need to follow their di for the dair set up.

It isn't an issue of DI, that's never been the problem with dair. Dair literally either sends you left or right, it's too inconsistent.

 

[Travitoninja99]

There was no assumption, I knew what you meant, just be more literal lol. I agree, It would be great if she had like an Up-Throw into Rest at certain percentages, it would be a wonderful gift for Jiggs.

Also random, I really wish they would give Falco a decent setup for his DAir, it would be so awesome

 

[Solutionme]

There was no assumption, I knew what you meant, just be more literal lol. I agree, It would be great if she had like an Up-Throw into Rest at certain percentages, it would be a wonderful gift for Jiggs.

Also random, I really wish they would give Falco a decent setup for his DAir, it would be so awesome

Falco has stuff with dair last I checked. What he does need imo is less endlag on those lasers. They're only good for jab resetting unfortunately.

 

[Green L]

What he does need imo is less endlag on those lasers.

Nah, long range projectiles shouldn't be so spammable. Falco's lazers are fine as they are.

 

[Solutionme]

His isn't deadly like other ones though, besides when do you actually see a Falco player legitimately use it in the middle of a match other than to jab reset and try to steal an opponent's jump? It's not good for forcing approaches on platformed stages.

 

[Green L]

So? Good falcos use the lazers at the right moments. Falco's shouldn't have lagless lazers. That's basically saying " I press b and win neutral"

 

[wedl!!]

"peach and ike aren't good at securing stocks"

LOL.

most characters would die for ike bair or peach fair. even besides that, they both have kill throws and have setups that work at relevant percents, alongside great edgeguard games.

 

[Solutionme]

So? Good falcos use the lazers at the right moments. Falco's shouldn't have lagless lazers. That's basically saying " I press b and win neutral"

I didn't say lagless either. I'm just saying you shouldn't be able to implement it into your game other than for the reason of jab locks and trying to steal an opponent's jump. It isn't even fair when compared to Fox he is slower and can't approach as easily, while Fox can just camp away with his even if it doesn't stun.

 

[Travitoninja99]

"peach and ike aren't good at securing stocks"

LOL.

most characters would die for ike bair or peach fair. even besides that, they both have kill throws and have setups that work at relevant percents, alongside great edgeguard games.

Lololol someone actually said that? That's hilarious. Yeah, Ike's not good at all, neither is Ryo... oh wait, yes they are

 

[Solutionme]

Lololol someone actually said that? That's hilarious. Yeah, Ike's not good at all, neither is Ryo... oh wait, yes they are

Peach is almost damn near broken with those float cancels, you can throw out moves after aerials so damned quick.

 

[Travitoninja99]

Absolutely, Peach does indeed have some great tools at her disposal, especially in her aerial game. Not to mention one of the strongest Up-Smashes in the game when sweet-spotted

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So? Good falcos use the lazers at the right moments. Falco's shouldn't have lagless lazers. That's basically saying " I press b and win neutral"

No, in this case we're saying "press B to have a neutral". He can't approach and can't force approaches because using lasers at anything resembling reasonable range leaves him open unless he's in the air, and since he falls so fast he can't target grounded foes with them because he'll incur ground endlag rather than air endlag.

 

[LancerStaff]

Maybe Falco would be better off if he couldn't rapid-fire on the ground... I was going to say to make the first shot stronger but the rest stay the same but there wouldn't be a ton of application to that.

 

[Solutionme]

Absolutely, Peach does indeed have some great tools at her disposal, especially in her aerial game. Not to mention one of the strongest Up-Smashes in the game when sweet-spotted

I kind of want them to nerf her slightly.

 

[DiggsLeehay]

it's good and all, i wish they had a little bit more...i dunno, its just missing something
oh yeah KIRBY got NERFED

I hate it to, especially since I think Kirby needs a buff. But, Sakurai has to avoid looking biased somehow. I'm still hoping for that meta knight and DK nerf.

 

[DarkK]

I honestly think the Luigi nerf was justified, simply because of how ridiculous it was that Luigi could combo you into multiple grabs that led to 40~50%. I do think that Luigi has a really hard time killing now though, and perhaps something else should be buffed for him in order to compensate.

As for shieldstun, I actually quite like it. I wasn't able to play as agresive as I do now, like pressuring people on their shields, because landing anything on shield before the patch would guarantee a punish on Mac. Now, I can pressure shields with a combination of tilts and smashes, pushing the opponent away just enough for me to get away in time. I haven't been able to improve as though, I keep getting punished after I land the hits on shield. How is fair safer now? Do I have to land the full hit on shields and then jump or something?

 

[DiggsLeehay]

I honestly think the Luigi nerf was justified, simply because of how ridiculous it was that Luigi could combo you into multiple grabs that led to 40~50%. I do think that Luigi has a really hard time killing now though, and perhaps something else should be buffed for him in order to compensate.

As for shieldstun, I actually quite like it. I wasn't able to play as agresive as I do now, like pressuring people on their shields, because landing anything on shield before the patch would guarantee a punish on Mac. Now, I can pressure shields with a combination of tilts and smashes, pushing the opponent away just enough for me to get away in time. I haven't been able to improve as though, I keep getting punished after I land the hits on shield. How is fair safer now? Do I have to land the full hit on shields and then jump or something?

The shieldstun (imo) really hasn't affected me ( and as it seems), you. I mean if you are concerned about how you can't pressure as well, I am Afraid I can't help you there. :-:

 

[Travitoninja99]

I honestly think the Luigi nerf was justified, simply because of how ridiculous it was that Luigi could combo you into multiple grabs that led to 40~50%. I do think that Luigi has a really hard time killing now though, and perhaps something else should be buffed for him in order to compensate.

As for shieldstun, I actually quite like it. I wasn't able to play as agresive as I do now, like pressuring people on their shields, because landing anything on shield before the patch would guarantee a punish on Mac. Now, I can pressure shields with a combination of tilts and smashes, pushing the opponent away just enough for me to get away in time. I haven't been able to improve as though, I keep getting punished after I land the hits on shield. How is fair safer now? Do I have to land the full hit on shields and then jump or something?

I disagree that he has a hard time killing; his Up-Smash is relatively the same as Mario's, in fact is stronger, however Luigi's has a sourspot that Mario's does not have. Both his D-Smash and his F-Smash have high kill power. He also has his BAir as a good tool. Despite lacking the combo setup, his NAir and Down-B are still good killing tools. And of course SJP for those hard reads =P So I really don't see the need to buff him in that regard, as his combo game is still amazing

I too love the new shield mechanics and the slight roll nerf, I think it's a positive change that is well appreciated.

 

[whitekirby9]

also there is SO MUCH knock back on jabs now....

 

[DiggsLeehay]

also there is SO MUCH knock back on jabs now....

I've been wanting to get opinions from other Kirby mains about the nerf he received. A penny for your thoughts?

 

[DarkK]

The shieldstun (imo) really hasn't affected me ( and as it seems), you. I mean if you are concerned about how you can't pressure as well, I am Afraid I can't help you there. :-:

No, I mean that I hit people with Puff's fair on their shield and I still get punished/hit. People claim that her fair is now safe on shield, but I just can't get the handle of it.

I disagree that he has a hard time killing; his Up-Smash is relatively the same as Mario's, in fact is stronger, however Luigi's has a sourspot that Mario's does not have. Both his D-Smash and his F-Smash have high kill power. He also has his BAir as a good tool. Despite lacking the combo setup, his NAir and Down-B are still good killing tools. And of course SJP for those hard reads =P So I really don't see the need to buff him in that regard, as his combo game is still amazing

I too love the new shield mechanics and the slight roll nerf, I think it's a positive change that is well appreciated.

I've played my Luigi main friend, and his up smash doesn't always kill, must be that sourspot you mentioned. As for his combos, they work up until around 80~90%, give or take, based on my experience, and it only gets worse with rage. He still can get around 40% from a single combo at 0, but once you hit that mark once, you'll never do it again until the next stock. With the experiences in recent days, I would say the nerf was not only justified, but it makes Luigi not ridiculous and makes him a bit balanced in my eyes (Sure, he can pull a 40% combo on you, but he can't do it again or at least not another 40% combo like he could before).

The nerf on rolls is wonderful, yes! Mostly because now I get my punishes on people rolling behind me about 90% now, most of the time on the frame where they were rolling on the same exact spot I was standing at! This only helps to make the game less defensive and more competitive, which I enjoy.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Peach is almost damn near broken with those float cancels, you can throw out moves after aerials so damned quick.

I'll agree that peach is really good, but I don't think that she's broken, while I've fought some good peach mains before, but if can space her out, and I don't have to worry about her aerials in the neutral. I mean, you main sword characters...

 

[whitekirby9]

I've been wanting to get opinions from other Kirby mains about the nerf he received. A penny for your thoughts?

I'm not sure about hitbox angle, not sure if that's a nerf or not, but The start up and that for Ice breath isnt a big deal, i don't see ice breath being very use full, i actually see now that his Custom Quick hammer (hammer bash) got buffed, i didn't read all of the patch notes for kirby,