Yoshi vs.Marth!

[Deleted member]

Ok, so i have read bringers character matchup guide, and ive read some other things, but i still have loads of trouble vs. marth. Firstly, his massive range. HE can dish out more damage than Yoshi and still be safer. DJCC doesnt work well on tipped atttacks, and he still does more damage than u. Second, camping. Ugg how camping ticks me off. Combined with his range, Marths ability to just keep hitting u, while outspacing your counter attack attempts, makes him a formidable opponent, and it drives me off the edge! Literally. Which leads me to my next point: Edgeguarding. MArth has IMO the best edgeguard in the game, from tipped fairs, to dairs, to his B, to dtilts. And we all know that our Green asexual dino is very prone to being gimp killed. Marth is by far the best edgeguarder of Yoshi. He can easily take stocks with dtilts, even if you're at low %s. Thats my main problem, as he can use tipped attacks to get me off the edge at low %s, then edgeguard me with ease. Next point, his speed. His attacks may not be extrememly fast, but marth is faster than yoshi, and also has a nice wavedash. He can use his speed to tech chase and chaingrab. All of this, combined with cool hair, makes Marth one of Yoshi's worst matchups. All yoshi has is eggs, which can be broken or dodged, a DJC, which helps alot, but not nearly enough to defeat MArth, and Yoshi's edgeguarding skillz, which wont do anything if marth takes all your stocks first

PLEASE HELP ME!

 

[Ripple]

step 1: Lose

step 2: stop playing yoshi!

 

[Deleted member]

Ive got step 1 down. Actually i dont, i just dont use Yoshi when fighting Marth (or shiek or peach,) Step 2... you gotta be kidding. Yoshi is teh uber pwnage, w/ his eggz and cool sounds, and he comes in pink!

 

[Ripple]

watch some of fumi's vids. ece but only if he's not within tiping range. play it safe and play defensively. I learned this the hard way when I played tink in a tournament, I got him down to 2 live though.

oh yeah, don't djc as much

 

[Deleted member]

UMmm whenever i ECE, marth dtilts me and kills me before i can get up. I try to be defensive, but like i said, he camps, so once he hits me, im pretty much dead. DJC is prettty much the only thing i can do, unless u tell me what i should do.

 

[Shiri]

I like this matchup and it's pretty fun.

I don't suggest playing it unless it's on your counterpick stage or random.

Marth is gay, this needs repeating. Marth is a homosexual homofreak. He's gayer than Sheik in prison, and he loves it.

There's just one problem with this matchup now in mid 2007 compared to like...late 2005 early 2006. There are no Marth players anymore--they've all switched to Fox. The ones that are left play him the only way he should be played. Very intelligently and very gaygaygaygay. Yes, I just made that word up. I call it a Marthism.

Expect lots of forward air camping, lots of grabs, and lots of CC to grab/smash techniques. How do you stop it? Well, Marth is so gay, that it's out of the game's capacity to allow it to be "stopped," but you can prevent this from coming about by maintaining a very fast, lagless, high pressure ground game.

One thing I think works is playing this match as if you were Sheik. Your main focus, if you choose to play this way, relies mainly on locking Marth in his shield. The one part about him that makes this not-so-hard to do is that he has a very unreliable jab. Many Marths at all levels of play still abuse his back roll because it's like his panic button. Sometimes, they just don't have another way out. Especially if they know that YOU know that your jab beats their grabs 100% of the time.

I'd put more here, but I'm really hungry. Like, I want to eat my keyboard.

Hmmm...


sa98vdcv-

 

[Deleted member]

I like this matchup and it's pretty fun.

I don't suggest playing it unless it's on your counterpick stage or random.

Marth is gay, this needs repeating. Marth is a homosexual homofreak. He's gayer than Sheik in prison, and he loves it.

There's just one problem with this matchup now in mid 2007 compared to like...late 2005 early 2006. There are no Marth players anymore--they've all switched to Fox. The ones that are left play him the only way he should be played. Very intelligently and very gaygaygaygay. Yes, I just made that word up. I call it a Marthism.

Expect lots of forward air camping, lots of grabs, and lots of CC to grab/smash techniques. How do you stop it? Well, Marth is so gay, that it's out of the game's capacity to allow it to be "stopped," but you can prevent this from coming about by maintaining a very fast, lagless, high pressure ground game.

One thing I think works is playing this match as if you were Sheik. Your main focus, if you choose to play this way, relies mainly on locking Marth in his shield. The one part about him that makes this not-so-hard to do is that he has a very unreliable jab. Many Marths at all levels of play still abuse his back roll because it's like his panic button. Sometimes, they just don't have another way out. Especially if they know that YOU know that your jab beats their grabs 100% of the time.

I'd put more here, but I'm really hungry. Like, I want to eat my keyboard.

Hmmm...


sa98vdcv-

My jab beats his grab!? Well i dont know how to play shiek at all, so could you put a few more details. But anyways, so far, this has helped alot. What attacks do u suggest using for a low lag high pressure ground game? dtilt? ftilt? Going aeriel dont work, cuz Marths air game is gay, and i dont know how to get close enough to marth to do anything. If i do get close, he grabs, then continues to camp while still showing off his gay tiara. Anyways, i love playing as marth because, well he is so gay! Even though i play as him, he is so gay, that i dont know how yoshi can stop him (i love saying gay! It makes me feel straight). Well thanks so far (but if you dont put more ill kill u!).

 

[Deleted member]

Please Help Me People! Every Moment, I Am Getting Pwned By A Gay Marth!

 

[Deleted member]

And btw, i just said these things so i could become a journeyman. WOOOO JOURNEYMAN!

 

[Shiri]

Terrible.

I'll put more tomorrow, I just had to interject.

But basically, Sheik v. Marth is Sheik forcing Marth in his shield or off a ledge.

And high pressure low lag means very VERY low DJC neutral airs, lots of jabs, and maybe a tilt or two. Not very much more. At least that's how I see it. Others might have a different way to put the pressure on.

 

[Deleted member]

One of my friends marth sux (he just playes him when i need practice), but i beat him today w/ teh yoshi. WOOO! Btw, how do u get outta teh ken combo well?

 

[Ripple]

jump right before the dair, then air dodge to safety, you may have a chance to edge guard

 

[Deleted member]

jump right before the dair, then air dodge to safety, you may have a chance to edge guard

Kewl thank you very much. Take that jon stewart!

 

[The |Egg| Sniper]

One of my friends marth sux (he just playes him when i need practice), but i beat him today w/ teh yoshi. WOOO! Btw, how do u get outta teh ken combo well?

A better question is how did you get into the Ken combo? You should be able to DJ through his slashes leading to the edge. If you don't, take the before said post. Try to airdodge towards the ground out of it, then counterattack.

 

[rmusgrave]

I put pressure on with d-tilt, crouch cancelling and dash attacks. As soon as Marth goes aerial and I have space I dash attack. If I don't have space I crouch and prepare to f-smash or d-tilt. Approaching Marth is always difficult, but Marth is a nice character to combo and his recovery is easily d-tilt gimped.

Overall you will lose this matchup though, it requires serious control of Yoshi to be able to take out Marth.

I can't speak for Shiri's antiMarth advice, as my jab/tilt game doesn't compare to what I've seen of his.

 

[Shiri]

Bringer and everyone, I should say this.

The only reason I'm so confident about my Marth advice is because the people I've been playing with for the past three years have gone out of their way on practically every possible occasion to gay me and make me feel like my character doesn't exist. Through most of it, I can still win pretty convincingly. It is for this reason that I give all this advice with confidence--it has been gay tested and homo approved.

My advice may seem unnecessarily focused on one or two areas using only one or two techniques, but that's what fights come down to many times when people play specifically to counter you. Many times I have to go the safest route with the least possible chances for vulnerability while maximizing my chances for landing a successful combo or KO. Maybe I actually shouldn't give my advice on this matchup since it's actually starting to seem only applicable to me and maybe a few others--I doubt everyone fights super gay Marths.

Did I just say that?

 

[Deleted member]

Overall you will lose this matchup though, it requires serious control of Yoshi to be able to take out Marth.

.

Are you saying I don't have control of Yoshi. *Plays friends pichu and gets ******. Lol jk, I probably dont have serious control over Yoshi (w/e that means ) And Shiri, im pretty sure most of the marths i play r gaytastic (in a bad way). You arent alone.

 

[Shiri]

Not saying, "Oh, pity me, I get gayed all day,"...

...but just saying maybe not everyone is used to that playstyle.

Forward air camping is tricky to get around.

 

[rmusgrave]

For those of us that aren't used to that playstyle but would expect to come across it at some point -

Can you give us some examples of what you would do in certain situations? I like situational advice personally, as my smash game = situational knowledge and adaptation where possible. Things like Marth is dash dancing and I expect him to grab so I do X (obviously a bad example but I'm trying to be brief because I have homework to get done).

Shiri - the antiMarth expert?

 

[Shiri]

Shiri = expert at fail.

Hmm, some situations. Let's see...

Dash camping: For the dash dances that really abuse Marth's range, I guess the main point is not to spotdodge, as that's really what all Marths wait for. I like to wait until they do the dash away, then wavedash in just as they're turning around to dash my way again. At that point, depending on distance, I'll either jab or forward tilt, tends to stop them cold. I try my best not to downsmash as whenever Marth gets hit, he tries to CC and shield, which leads to grabs, which isn't good. If they're doing the really short dash dances, it can be tricker. One wrong move nets them a forward smash tip, which is what short dash camping is mainly geared towards (as opposed to long dash dances, which are looking for free grabs). Wavedashing back and using Egg Lay or DJCing backwards and tossing an egg behind you are decent cover, but Marth tends to recover faster than you if he clanks with an egg, so it's only useful if they don't see it in time.

Forward air camping - Tricky. The immediate answer to this is "CC," but it's not always beneficial. Forward air camping that also retreats is dangerous because Yoshi can't CC forward air tip at maybe 40%? I forget the exact number, but it's something super-low like that. So, here's what I like to do. When Marth forward air camps, he does one forward air while he's rising and then another one while he's falling, preferably out of a short hop. Advancing into this technique while he's falling is bad, because you'll have to dodge or shield, which gives him time to grab or something else equally gay. If you run in and CC on the falling hit, Marth usually has time to adjust his aerial control to pull as far back as possible in order to tip. With that said, you want to go in while he's rising. You can run in and slide under the attack with a spotdodge (thank God for slipperiness) or quickly shield and let go (supershielding comes in very handy here as you can just wavedash out). At this point, chances are you have successfully penetrated Marth's personal space and he's in the lag (minimal lag, but lag nonetheless) of an attack, so you're at the advantage for a few moments. If you did a spotdodge, chances are you'll only have time to tie his next forward air as it comes down (boo @ the vertical range on this move) with an up tilt. If you supershielded and wavedashed out, you can beat his descent with a DJC up aerial or you can really push your luck and go for an upsmash. One last thing you can do that's risky is to roll behind him. The timing for this is tricky--you have to judge when the Marth player will cross that point of no return, so to speak, and make that conscious decision that their next move will be a forward air and stick with it. If you roll to early, they'll still be watching you and decide to back air, which is easily one of the best moves in the game (I honestly don't know why Marths don't camp this move more). If you roll too late, you'll either get hit out of your roll or grabbed after they land. Remember, there are still two frames of vulnerability before you can go into a spotdodge, and Marth's grab is plenty gay enough to take advantage of that. Anyway, after rolling, I think the safest things to go into are a down tilt or jabs. Forward smash or grab would be awesome here, but they honestly take way too long. If they get their shields up, you can molest them from behind--trust me when I tell you, Marth is uncomfortable enough in his shield...if you're behind him, that takes them to a new level of discomfort. Pick at him with really low DJC neutral airs and jabs. Expect after the first four or five taps (if that many), that they will roll, and most likely roll behind you.

Neutral air spam leading into forward smash: This is simple, really. If you're at really low percents, you can just run in and CC the neutral air as close to Marth as you can (this is harder to tip and most Marths don't control their air control as well with this move as they do with forward air--they tend to let their momentum take them when using this move) and down tilt and then see where that leads you. For the more fun, rewarding, and challenging part of this technique. Get hit by it the first few times. Learn to see when and why they try to lead into forward smash--that's what you want to focus on. Of course, if you can do this without getting hit, then more power to you. After you've learned what makes their C-sTick (get it? LOL), then what I like to do is start up a slow and deliberate dash dance of my own--medium range, low speed. I basically wander just short of their neutral air distance to try to spot their lead-in. Once they come in and they set up for forward smash, (I stole this out of one of Fumi's videos, I can't front) I roll in (there is a hitbox on Marth's knee, so be careful) and up tilt. If you up tilt Marth when he's at ten percent before the tilt, you can do that awesome up tilt, triple DJC up air, full jump forward air to reverse DJC forward combo for like a billion percent. I've actually done it all once and have gotten all but the last reverse DJC forward air a good many times.

That's all I can think of for now--one of the ways I like to fight Marth is just to remember that it's okay to trade with him for the most part. Even with tippers, Marth doesn't outlast Yoshi for too long, especially if your DI is sick and your recovery games are good (and if you don't let up on the pressure). Just don't be afraid of Marth hitting you as long you know you'll box him right across his face in return.

Wow, all that typing made me hungry.

 

[rmusgrave]

<3 Shiri. Thanks heaps =)

 

[Rob_Gambino]

Ripple, are you going to MSOP?

 

[Ripple]

yes I am. I'm looking forward to having a yoshi ditto if you go

 

[Rob_Gambino]

I wish I was going. My carpool kicked me out, cuz I would have had to leave at 7:30 to be able to make it to work by 9 PM. Maybe there's still time to convince them, lolz.

 

[Ripple]

I can't be a lone yoshi, if you need a ride pm me. I might be able to pick you up depending on where you live. I'm going to a h3 tournament the day before and its about 5 hours away but I may be able to take. but I'm going for sure hopefully I can record some of my yoshi games on my laptop

 

[Rob_Gambino]

I live about 2 and a half of hours south of Charleston. I'd have to get on 57 in either marion or benton which would make the trip a little shorter. Anywayz, I doubt you'd come pick me up cuz it'd add 2 hours to your trip. Getting a ride there is not a problem, but I have to leave at like 7:30 cuz I have work.

 

[Deleted member]

Shiri, do u have any vids of yourself, just so we can see how u handle marths (also, ur modest, but i think ur better than u say). I may get some vids of myself up sometime soon, but there is a big wildfire in San Diego(where i live), so i cant get together w/ my friends atm.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

fun dittos ripple. It's been awhile since I got to play some, so I know I enjoyed it.

 

[Shiri]

I have a few videos, but none of them are against Marth.

Nobody plays that matchup against me in tourney anymore. :_:

Most of them are versus Peach (since I suck against Peach/since it's easier to win with Peach/since downsmash is just a good move in general) and a few others. I also have quite a few with Samus and some with Sheik. Notice the character selection. >_>;

Er...I have a video thread in here somewhere. If I find it, I'll edit it with the link. It might be on page three or four or something. Hah, found it.

P.S. - Rob and Ripple should heed my totally inconsiderate and undeniably unreasonable demand for them to go to VLS next month for hot Yoshi dittos and team action.

P.P.S. - If you ever seen me play in tournament, you'd realize that the "I suck" and "maybe someone better can answer this" lines are not in modesty, I'm really not that good.

 

[Ripple]

I almost won too, you have a very nice yoshi, even beat my fox

 

[Deleted member]

I have a few videos, but none of them are against Marth.

Nobody plays that matchup against me in tourney anymore. :_:

Most of them are versus Peach (since I suck against Peach/since it's easier to win with Peach/since downsmash is just a good move in general) and a few others. I also have quite a few with Samus and some with Sheik. Notice the character selection. >_>;

Er...I have a video thread in here somewhere. If I find it, I'll edit it with the link. It might be on page three or four or something. Hah, found it.

P.S. - Rob and Ripple should heed my totally inconsiderate and undeniably unreasonable demand for them to go to VLS next month for hot Yoshi dittos and team action.

P.P.S. - If you ever seen me play in tournament, you'd realize that the "I suck" and "maybe someone better can answer this" lines are not in modesty, I'm really not that good.

Dang Shiri, not bad (though i wish i could see your anti marth tips in action). I do think you are being modest. Anyways, on topic, how do u stop marth from edguarding you. If you are above the edge at all you get a tipped fsmash, and if you are below the edge u get dtilt gimped. I usually airdodge, but after a few airdodges it get predictable and they just wait for me to airdodge, then fsmash. Btw, may i bump your video thread Shiri, cuz people deserve to see you owning/getting owned. peace :61:

 

[Shiri]

Marth edgeguarding is tricky.

If you're recovering from below, down tilt does not gimp unless it tips, and I've honestly never been knocked out of my DJ from a tip down tilt before, so I wouldn't know the percentage to break, but it would have to be at least 80%, making an educated guess. It can gimp if you plan to egg to grab the edge, but Marth ALWAYS ducks before doing his down tilt waaaaaaaay ahead of time, so it won't be any big surprise. Forward smash can also hit below the stage just a bit. Forward smash tip stops Yoshi cold at 60%, so if they're at the edge, try to ride up the stage and DJ through the weaker part of the sword. If they're at tip length from the edge, then try to pull back as you reach the edge or you can aim for the walltech, which can be tough (but very possible).

Recovering from high (or recovering when your DJ takes you high above the stage) can also be kinda tricky. Most gay Marths will simply follow the direction of your DJ. If you're recovering from the left and go high and right, they'll simply walk under you, waiting for a chance to forward smash you out. Others will simply try to forward smash or neutral B (which is actually kinda dangerous). You don't have to worry about aerials, even tipped ones, until your damage is just ridiculous, so just focus mainly on avoiding early tippers with forward smash and the B moves.

Dancing Blade edgeguards are rare, but the ending strokes are all very potent, so do watch out. Reverse up tilt is super homo, but nobody does that thankfully.

So two things to conclude this. First, if you DJ through a sword attack that's not a multiple hit attack (like neutral air) and it has suitable lag (forward air, forward smash, NOT DOWN TILT), then cancel your jump after you get hit with a neutral air to create space and to tack on some damage. Trading isn't bad in this matchup. Also, really really gay Marths will grab you out of your DJ. Watch out for this. It's a very deadly technique, especially down tilt to grab. It *****.

I guess the point here is that you need to find out where they're most comfortable edgeguarding you and trying to abuse the weaknesses of that particular position. Marth doesn't edgeguard too easily in this matchup, but it can seem like you run out of options really quick when, in fact, it's Marth countering your recovery game instead of you countering his edgeguarding game. Stay positive and stay alert, jump through weak sword attacks, do lots of math inside your head so you know when it's safe to attempt certain recoveries, and last, but not least, don't cancel your jump early for any reason. This last tip should be pretty self-explanatory.

You can bump the thread, if you like. Bringer's a good mod, so I doubt he'll mind. [/speaks-on-Bringer's-behalf]

I'm going to try my hardest to get videos from VLS next month so I have some recent material of my play and I'll try my best to have it against good people so you guys can see for yourself what works and what doesn't. Not all of my stuff works on everyone, it's just how I've learned to play against the people I've played during my travels.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth edgeguarding is tricky.

If you're recovering from below, down tilt does not gimp unless it tips, and I've honestly never been knocked out of my DJ from a tip down tilt before, so I wouldn't know the percentage to break, but it would have to be at least 80%, making an educated guess. It can gimp if you plan to egg to grab the edge, but Marth ALWAYS ducks before doing his down tilt waaaaaaaay ahead of time, so it won't be any big surprise. Forward smash can also hit below the stage just a bit. Forward smash tip stops Yoshi cold at 60%, so if they're at the edge, try to ride up the stage and DJ through the weaker part of the sword. If they're at tip length from the edge, then try to pull back as you reach the edge or you can aim for the walltech, which can be tough (but very possible).

Recovering from high (or recovering when your DJ takes you high above the stage) can also be kinda tricky. Most gay Marths will simply follow the direction of your DJ. If you're recovering from the left and go high and right, they'll simply walk under you, waiting for a chance to forward smash you out. Others will simply try to forward smash or neutral B (which is actually kinda dangerous). You don't have to worry about aerials, even tipped ones, until your damage is just ridiculous, so just focus mainly on avoiding early tippers with forward smash and the B moves.

Dancing Blade edgeguards are rare, but the ending strokes are all very potent, so do watch out. Reverse up tilt is super homo, but nobody does that thankfully.

So two things to conclude this. First, if you DJ through a sword attack that's not a multiple hit attack (like neutral air) and it has suitable lag (forward air, forward smash, NOT DOWN TILT), then cancel your jump after you get hit with a neutral air to create space and to tack on some damage. Trading isn't bad in this matchup. Also, really really gay Marths will grab you out of your DJ. Watch out for this. It's a very deadly technique, especially down tilt to grab. It *****.

I guess the point here is that you need to find out where they're most comfortable edgeguarding you and trying to abuse the weaknesses of that particular position. Marth doesn't edgeguard too easily in this matchup, but it can seem like you run out of options really quick when, in fact, it's Marth countering your recovery game instead of you countering his edgeguarding game. Stay positive and stay alert, jump through weak sword attacks, do lots of math inside your head so you know when it's safe to attempt certain recoveries, and last, but not least, don't cancel your jump early for any reason. This last tip should be pretty self-explanatory.

You can bump the thread, if you like. Bringer's a good mod, so I doubt he'll mind. [/speaks-on-Bringer's-behalf]

I'm going to try my hardest to get videos from VLS next month so I have some recent material of my play and I'll try my best to have it against good people so you guys can see for yourself what works and what doesn't. Not all of my stuff works on everyone, it's just how I've learned to play against the people I've played during my travels.

I love your page long posts lol. I was expecting a, maybe, 3 sentence post, but i guess i should expect this from you, in all of your marth knowledge. Thank you very much, this helps a ton.

 

[Shiri]

I really hope it helps, sometimes I'm worried I just take up space on these boards, LOL.

 

[YoshiBomb]

Idk If anyone said this already but Marth doesn't fair well if he is above you so try to keep him on platforms. theres my 2 cents

 

[Deleted member]

Idk If anyone said this already but Marth doesn't fair well if he is above you so try to keep him on platforms. theres my 2 cents

I guess, but he does have his dair, whhich is pretty strong.

 

[Shiri]

Marth doesn't fair well if he is above you

LOLLLLLLLLLLL! Get it? GET IT?!

 

[rmusgrave]

Just a quick point Shiri.

You said in an earlier post that one of the 'gay' things that your local Marths do on you is SH double f-air camping, whether on the spot or fading backwards. When I saw that I instantly thought Dash Attack. I know that back when I played Marth as a Peach counter I tried this, and after every rising f-air Peach would just dash attack me and I would really not have a good time after this.

I think I would have more trouble with simple SH camping, with fast falls and the occasional f-air if you wander too close. Especially since trying to approach a falling f-airing Marth is hard enough, if he l-cancels he can dash dance away or just shield and beat almost every punisher you could try.

I guess the way I have seen (and played as myself) campy Marths who try to take on an IC player is how I can see difficulties arising.

EDIT: Heh, smash puns. Think it was originally a typo?

EDIT2: Shiri and anyone else it may concern, I don't mind thread bumping as long as meaningful discussion takes place.

 

[Shiri]

Hmmm, interesting. o_o

I'm gonna try that out at VLS and see how it works.

Around what percents do you attempt this? I'd imagine if it's too low, they can just grab when they land from the stun.

 

[Deleted member]

Just a quick point Shiri.

You said in an earlier post that one of the 'gay' things that your local Marths do on you is SH double f-air camping, whether on the spot or fading backwards. When I saw that I instantly thought Dash Attack. I know that back when I played Marth as a Peach counter I tried this, and after every rising f-air Peach would just dash attack me and I would really not have a good time after this.

I think I would have more trouble with simple SH camping, with fast falls and the occasional f-air if you wander too close. Especially since trying to approach a falling f-airing Marth is hard enough, if he l-cancels he can dash dance away or just shield and beat almost every punisher you could try.

I guess the way I have seen (and played as myself) campy Marths who try to take on an IC player is how I can see difficulties arising.

EDIT: Heh, smash puns. Think it was originally a typo?

EDIT2: Shiri and anyone else it may concern, I don't mind thread bumping as long as meaningful discussion takes place.

Thats a good idea (or fact). I will try it! btw, i bumped shiris thread, because everyone deserves to see it, and some new people might want to critique the vids. Cant marths see this coming after u pull it on them a few times and maybe waveland if they are low enough, or fake u out?