Delta-cod
Smash Hero
The following double post is Shiri approved.
Ness
Let’s break this down into sections.
Long Range: Yoshi wins. It’s mostly going to be intelligently placed eggs to pressure Ness into an approaching. Ness can reflect with the bat, but at long range Yoshi should have another egg out to take the reflected egg. All in all, Ness is forced to approach, whether it be by taking to the air or advancing while power shielding.
Mid Range: Here’s where it gets tricky. Ness can get PKF in at this range, which is what you don’t want to get hit by. You can’t attack Ness by the air, it doesn’t work. His Fair can beat any attack you aerial you throw at him. He can do rising aerials, SH two aerials, and do a bunch of tricks with his air movement. He can also use PKT for a mindgame at this range. Don’t get hit by PKT2, it can end a stock early. With good DI, you can survive it BARELY at 50% if you get hit by the strong part. It will end your life. You can cancel PKT by hitting the head of the bolt, or you can just hit Ness. Be wary, however, of getting tricked into going after Ness and getting PKT2’d in the face. A lot of mindgames are going on at midrange. Yoshi’s goal is to land a grab or some sort of hit as Ness lands. A Grab will lead into a guaranteed Usmash/uair on release, which is a good 20%, as well as putting Ness above you, which is an advantage to Yoshi.
Close Range: Yoshi wants to use a lot of jabs and quick attacks to get Ness out of his face. Pivot Grabs can work here, as well. Neither of the two characters have a particularly strong ground game, but I’d say that Yoshi’s is better than Ness’s. If Ness shields an attack, he can Nair OOS, which will knock you away. Ness has poor range on his tilts and jab, and Yoshi’s jab is by far better than most of Ness’s ground game. Neither character really wants to be at a neutral position at this range, and the only real time this range will come into play is when someone is going for a follow up after landing an aerial or grab.
Air Game: Ness ***** Yoshi in the air. He outranges and outprioritizes. The only time Yoshi really wants to take to the air is to do a SH Nair over a ground PKF, or to uair a falling Ness. Otherwise, stay grounded.
Ground Game: Yoshi wins the ground game. Ness has his jabs and tilts which have little range and priority. His dtilt can trip you and set you up for a smash. His utilt pops you into the air for a chase. His Up and Down Smashes each have their uses, and there are a lot of tricks with them. If you see a Ness charging his YoYo, wait for him to activate it and go in for the grab. Ness’s Fsmash packs a punch, and PKF can set you up for it. However, you can easily DI out of PKF and DJ away, removing the threat. Ness will use PKF to space you away so he can return to the air, since he doesn’t like being on the ground much.
Offstage Game: When you’re recovering as Yoshi, MAKE SURE TO RECOVER HIGH. Recovering low gives Ness an easy opportunity for a spike. Also, be VERY careful using eggs to recover at mid/low heights. Ness CAN spike you while you’re doing this, whether it be from coming above or doing a rising dair. If you’re going to ECE, do it EXTREMELY cautiously. On the ledge is NOT the place to be against Ness, he can and will punish you. Ness can use pretty much any aerial to kill you off stage, and can even fair wall you far back. A PKT bolt will knock you out of your DJ at around 110%, and the spike as low as 50%, probably lower. Make sure to air dodge properly so as to not get gimped.
Similarly, when you knock Ness off, he’s a lot more difficult to gimp than you’d expect. If you knock him high in the air, you’re better off pelting him with eggs, since he can aerial you on his way down. He can Fair you if you try to gimp him, which will beat any aerial you throw out. He can spike you as well, so be cautious. Nair can knock you back to the stage, and Bair can hit in front of Ness as well as sweet spot. In order to gimp Ness, you’re going to need to hit him not very high. You want to wait until he begins to run out of time to recover. Most of the time he won’t need to use PKT unless you hit him out again. If possible, hit him in between aerials or Egg him out of his DJ to force him to use PKT. When going to gimp PKT, use a nair or go for the spike, just make sure you don’t begin too late, or you will get PKT2’d and die at a low percent. If both characters are recovering correctly, very few gimps should occur.
Killing: Ness can kill with a good amount of moves. Uair, Nair, Sweetspotted Bair, Dair, Fsmash, PKT2, and Bthrow can all kill. PKT2 relies heavily on mindgames, but it can be shielded. Do note, however, that PKT2 does massive shield damage, so your shield needs to be in very good condition to take the hit. A Shattered Shield will most likely end in your death. A sweetspotted bair will be hard to land if Yoshi plays defensively. Uair shouldn’t happen often because you don’t WANT to be above Ness, and a Fast Falled Air Dodge, can take care of any threat of that. A lot of Ness’s KO moves need a set up or for you to screw up to get hit. Bthrow will kill at around 140% with good DI.
Yoshi has a much easier time killing Ness in this MU, as well as racking up damage. If Yoshi gets one grab in on Ness, assuming he doesn’t ground break it, it’s an easy 20%. If you get a GR > USmash on Ness while he’s at 0%, he can FF a Fair on you as you recover from End Lag. Past that percent, you can try for another grab on landing for another 20-ish percent. Ness can beat a Pivot Grab with a falling Fair, so stay to close to him as he’s falling if you want to regrab. Also, if Ness does a dair and retreats it, you can try and dash grab his landing, but odds are he’ll be too far away. If you see Ness doing a dair, you can Usmash or Uair him to keep him up. Mix it up depending on how the Ness is reacting to get in a lot of extra damage. When Ness is at kill percents, about 110-120, you can Grab Release, into an uair for the kill.
Stages: In general, platformed stages are better for Ness, while more open stages favor Yoshi.
For Neutrals, you’ll want to strike Yoshi’s Island. It’s too cramped and messes with your camp game too much, which is what you need to use to get the grabs in on Ness. Also, Ness can take advantage of the platform for SH Aerials, which will be VERY hard to get by due to the moving platform. You’ll also not want to play on Battlefield. While the platforms don’t prevent any of the release goodies, they give Ness more options to not get grabbed. Final Destination and Smashville are very good stages for Yoshi to play on against Ness.
Counterpicks: Pick any flat stage with little obstructions. Smashville/FD are good for this. Pictochat too if it’s allowed. The pokemon stages may also work, though some of the transformations will favor Ness.
Bans
Rainbow Cruise: The Ship doesn’t really have enough space for Yoshi to camp his way around Ness’s aerials. The Second Part is all aerial pretty much, and since Ness destroys Yoshi in the air, you’ll pretty much be getting beat here. The third part is probably the best part for Yoshi, but even then it’s not very good. Honestly, when I played here with a Ness main I’d been beating consistently, I got 3 stocked.
Halberd: If Rainbow Cruise isn’t legal, than Halberd should be your next ban. The platform allows Ness to shield the Grab Release follow ups, essentially taking away what makes this MU easier for Yoshi.
Ban: RC/Halberd
Preferred Neutrals: FD/SV
CP: FD/SV/Picto/Pokemon Stadiums
Summary of Summary: The match up is all about the two players. Yoshi will wreck Ness if Ness gets grabbed. However, Ness has good spacing tools and options to prevent himself from getting grabbed. The match up is even, with a slight (or greater) advantage either way depending on stage choice.
Fun Fact: Yoshi’s Dash Grab hops him over grounded PKF
Ness
Let’s break this down into sections.
Long Range: Yoshi wins. It’s mostly going to be intelligently placed eggs to pressure Ness into an approaching. Ness can reflect with the bat, but at long range Yoshi should have another egg out to take the reflected egg. All in all, Ness is forced to approach, whether it be by taking to the air or advancing while power shielding.
Mid Range: Here’s where it gets tricky. Ness can get PKF in at this range, which is what you don’t want to get hit by. You can’t attack Ness by the air, it doesn’t work. His Fair can beat any attack you aerial you throw at him. He can do rising aerials, SH two aerials, and do a bunch of tricks with his air movement. He can also use PKT for a mindgame at this range. Don’t get hit by PKT2, it can end a stock early. With good DI, you can survive it BARELY at 50% if you get hit by the strong part. It will end your life. You can cancel PKT by hitting the head of the bolt, or you can just hit Ness. Be wary, however, of getting tricked into going after Ness and getting PKT2’d in the face. A lot of mindgames are going on at midrange. Yoshi’s goal is to land a grab or some sort of hit as Ness lands. A Grab will lead into a guaranteed Usmash/uair on release, which is a good 20%, as well as putting Ness above you, which is an advantage to Yoshi.
Close Range: Yoshi wants to use a lot of jabs and quick attacks to get Ness out of his face. Pivot Grabs can work here, as well. Neither of the two characters have a particularly strong ground game, but I’d say that Yoshi’s is better than Ness’s. If Ness shields an attack, he can Nair OOS, which will knock you away. Ness has poor range on his tilts and jab, and Yoshi’s jab is by far better than most of Ness’s ground game. Neither character really wants to be at a neutral position at this range, and the only real time this range will come into play is when someone is going for a follow up after landing an aerial or grab.
Air Game: Ness ***** Yoshi in the air. He outranges and outprioritizes. The only time Yoshi really wants to take to the air is to do a SH Nair over a ground PKF, or to uair a falling Ness. Otherwise, stay grounded.
Ground Game: Yoshi wins the ground game. Ness has his jabs and tilts which have little range and priority. His dtilt can trip you and set you up for a smash. His utilt pops you into the air for a chase. His Up and Down Smashes each have their uses, and there are a lot of tricks with them. If you see a Ness charging his YoYo, wait for him to activate it and go in for the grab. Ness’s Fsmash packs a punch, and PKF can set you up for it. However, you can easily DI out of PKF and DJ away, removing the threat. Ness will use PKF to space you away so he can return to the air, since he doesn’t like being on the ground much.
Offstage Game: When you’re recovering as Yoshi, MAKE SURE TO RECOVER HIGH. Recovering low gives Ness an easy opportunity for a spike. Also, be VERY careful using eggs to recover at mid/low heights. Ness CAN spike you while you’re doing this, whether it be from coming above or doing a rising dair. If you’re going to ECE, do it EXTREMELY cautiously. On the ledge is NOT the place to be against Ness, he can and will punish you. Ness can use pretty much any aerial to kill you off stage, and can even fair wall you far back. A PKT bolt will knock you out of your DJ at around 110%, and the spike as low as 50%, probably lower. Make sure to air dodge properly so as to not get gimped.
Similarly, when you knock Ness off, he’s a lot more difficult to gimp than you’d expect. If you knock him high in the air, you’re better off pelting him with eggs, since he can aerial you on his way down. He can Fair you if you try to gimp him, which will beat any aerial you throw out. He can spike you as well, so be cautious. Nair can knock you back to the stage, and Bair can hit in front of Ness as well as sweet spot. In order to gimp Ness, you’re going to need to hit him not very high. You want to wait until he begins to run out of time to recover. Most of the time he won’t need to use PKT unless you hit him out again. If possible, hit him in between aerials or Egg him out of his DJ to force him to use PKT. When going to gimp PKT, use a nair or go for the spike, just make sure you don’t begin too late, or you will get PKT2’d and die at a low percent. If both characters are recovering correctly, very few gimps should occur.
Killing: Ness can kill with a good amount of moves. Uair, Nair, Sweetspotted Bair, Dair, Fsmash, PKT2, and Bthrow can all kill. PKT2 relies heavily on mindgames, but it can be shielded. Do note, however, that PKT2 does massive shield damage, so your shield needs to be in very good condition to take the hit. A Shattered Shield will most likely end in your death. A sweetspotted bair will be hard to land if Yoshi plays defensively. Uair shouldn’t happen often because you don’t WANT to be above Ness, and a Fast Falled Air Dodge, can take care of any threat of that. A lot of Ness’s KO moves need a set up or for you to screw up to get hit. Bthrow will kill at around 140% with good DI.
Yoshi has a much easier time killing Ness in this MU, as well as racking up damage. If Yoshi gets one grab in on Ness, assuming he doesn’t ground break it, it’s an easy 20%. If you get a GR > USmash on Ness while he’s at 0%, he can FF a Fair on you as you recover from End Lag. Past that percent, you can try for another grab on landing for another 20-ish percent. Ness can beat a Pivot Grab with a falling Fair, so stay to close to him as he’s falling if you want to regrab. Also, if Ness does a dair and retreats it, you can try and dash grab his landing, but odds are he’ll be too far away. If you see Ness doing a dair, you can Usmash or Uair him to keep him up. Mix it up depending on how the Ness is reacting to get in a lot of extra damage. When Ness is at kill percents, about 110-120, you can Grab Release, into an uair for the kill.
Stages: In general, platformed stages are better for Ness, while more open stages favor Yoshi.
For Neutrals, you’ll want to strike Yoshi’s Island. It’s too cramped and messes with your camp game too much, which is what you need to use to get the grabs in on Ness. Also, Ness can take advantage of the platform for SH Aerials, which will be VERY hard to get by due to the moving platform. You’ll also not want to play on Battlefield. While the platforms don’t prevent any of the release goodies, they give Ness more options to not get grabbed. Final Destination and Smashville are very good stages for Yoshi to play on against Ness.
Counterpicks: Pick any flat stage with little obstructions. Smashville/FD are good for this. Pictochat too if it’s allowed. The pokemon stages may also work, though some of the transformations will favor Ness.
Bans
Rainbow Cruise: The Ship doesn’t really have enough space for Yoshi to camp his way around Ness’s aerials. The Second Part is all aerial pretty much, and since Ness destroys Yoshi in the air, you’ll pretty much be getting beat here. The third part is probably the best part for Yoshi, but even then it’s not very good. Honestly, when I played here with a Ness main I’d been beating consistently, I got 3 stocked.
Halberd: If Rainbow Cruise isn’t legal, than Halberd should be your next ban. The platform allows Ness to shield the Grab Release follow ups, essentially taking away what makes this MU easier for Yoshi.
Ban: RC/Halberd
Preferred Neutrals: FD/SV
CP: FD/SV/Picto/Pokemon Stadiums
Summary of Summary: The match up is all about the two players. Yoshi will wreck Ness if Ness gets grabbed. However, Ness has good spacing tools and options to prevent himself from getting grabbed. The match up is even, with a slight (or greater) advantage either way depending on stage choice.
Fun Fact: Yoshi’s Dash Grab hops him over grounded PKF
Victory is your destiny.
