Xyro's quick rundown of MUs (7 months in)

[Xyro77]

Before I begin, what you are about to read is MY OPINION on how I feel Samus does vs the rest of the cast. This is based off of videos and my offline/online experience as a Samus main and TO. Most all of these MUs will probably change as each character grows over the years but for now this is what I think.

My grading scale is as follows:

1. Both players are of high skill and know the MU.

2. I do not grade MU with numbers like 60:40 or 80:20....etc I grade with
"heavy disadvantage"
"disadvantage"
"slight disadvantage"
"even"
"slight advantage"
"advantage"
"heavy advantage"

3. While checking out the list, read it as "Samus has a *insert adv/disadv here* vs ABC"


vs slight advantage
vsslight advantage
vs heavy disadvantage
vs slight advantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight advantage
vsdisadvantage
vs slight advantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs heavy disadvantage
vs advantage
vsdisadvantage
vs disadvantage
vsslight advantage
vsslight advantage
vsslight disadvantage
vsdisadvantage
vs even
vs disadvantage
vsunknown
vs slight advantage
vs disadvantage
vsdisadvantage
vseven
vsdisadvantage
vsslight disadvantage
vseven
vsslight disadvantage
vsslight advantage
vs slight disadvantage
vsdisadvantage
vsslight disadvantage
vseven
vsslight disadvantage
vs advantage
vs disadvantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs disadvantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs disadvantage
vs heavy disadvantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs disadvantage
vs even
vs even
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight advantage
vsdisadvantage
vs slight advantage
vs disadvantage

 

[KayJay]

Samus vs. Toon Link even? Samus forces TLink to approach, it's so easy to power shield his projectiles while charging up our Beam so he always has to approach which is good for Samus, but bad for Tlink.

I think we are one of Yoshi's hardest matchup honestly just because we are one of the few characters who totally beat his up B spacing (Zair destroys the egg and hits Yoshi). It sounds cocky but I think we have a slight advantage over Yoshi, at least its not a disadvantage.

And I think vs. Luigi it's even. We are floaty, he won't chaingrab us as long as we don't make a mistake. At high % he can't dthrow kill combo us when we DI. He's so slow we can alwas space to charge our beam to a point where the beam beats the fireballs. Bomb's are actually safe in this matchup because he's just too slow to punish it. IMO it's even, (my sparing partner mains Luigi).

 

[Afro Smash]

My opinions, stars denote difference in opinion

vs slight advantage
vsslight advantage
vs Even*
vs slight advantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight advantage
vsslight disadvantage*
vs Advantage*
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight disadvantage
vs heavy disadvantage
vs advantage
vs slight disadvantage*
vs disadvantage
vsslight advantage
vsslight advantage
vsslight disadvantage
vsdisadvantage
vs even
vs slight disadvantage*
vsunknown
vs slight advantage
vs slight disadvantage*
vsheavy disadvantage*
vs slight advantage*
vsslight disadvantage*
vsslight disadvantage
vseven
vsdisadvantage
vsslight disadvantage
vseven
vsslight disadvantage
vs slight advantage*
vs heavy disadvantage*
vs slight disadvantage
vs Even*
vs Even*
vs Even*
vs slight disadvantage*
vs Even*
vs disadvantage
vs slight advantage*
vs even
vs slight disadvantage
vs slight advantage
vsslight disadvantage*
vs slight advantage
vs disadvantage

 

[DungeonMaster]

Interesting, Xyro you have 12 positive and 32 negative. Any chance you could post some video of your playstyle? Or send me some clips/replays and I post them for you if you haven't sprung for a capture card?

Afrosmash you have 14 positive and 23 negative.

My own list, from for glory XP only keep in mind, more a snapshot of internet skill, I have 21 positive with 14 negative:

Spoiler

vs Even
vsEven
vs Even
vs Slight advantage
vs Even
vs Heavy advantage
vsSlight disadvantage
vs Heavy advantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight advantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Heavy advantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Even
vsAdvantage
vsAdvantage
vsAdvantage
vsEven
vs Advantage
vs Advantage
vs???
vs Slight advantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vsSlight disadvantage
vs Slight advantage
vsAdvantage
vsEven
vsHeavy advantage
vsDisadvantage
vsSlight disadvantage
vsEven
vsHeavy advantage
vs Slight advantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Advantage
vs Advantage
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Advantage
vs Even
vs Slight advantage
vs Even
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Even
vs Even
vs Slight advantage
vs Disadvantage

 

[Afro Smash]

Heavy advantage in the Pac match up, what makes you say that?

 

[Fluidityt]

Interesting, Xyro you have 12 positive and 32 negative. Any chance you could post some video of your playstyle? Or send me some clips/replays and I post them for you if you haven't sprung for a capture card?

Afrosmash you have 14 positive and 23 negative.

My own list, from for glory XP only keep in mind, more a snapshot of internet skill, I have 21 positive with 14 negative:

Much love DM, but myself having recently moved out from FG, my entire opinion of Samus has changed dramatically since hitting up Anther's and going to tournament.

 

[SpandexBullets]

vs extreme disadvantage

Like, to the point where you should just give up your main and play Luigi or Shiek instead, or just spectate.

Samus is floaty, tall, has no return to stage options, no anti-air options, laggy ground options and very crap frame data on all her aerials.
Luigi beats Samus in every single way; great shield to resist projectiles, the best down-throw combos in the game (at any percent), guarenteed kill set-ups regardless of DI as low as 84%, a projectile designed to catch out floaty characters, lagless immediate aerials to break combos, superior specials, a kill throw, almost unpunishably lagless Smash attacks, etc.

Having played Luigi for about 2 weeks with another who knows all of his combo and kill percents, Samus does not stand a chance. A good Luigi will body a great Samus 99 times out of 100. If he had a sword, he'd be Metaknight.
Sorry, I love playing as Samus, but if you're facing Luigi, pull out a Shiek/WFT/Greninja/ZSS.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Also, vs Falcon is an advantage, if you do your aerials and projectiles right.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Heavy advantage in the Pac match up, what makes you say that?

I find our basic melee and aerials works extremely well against pac. He essentially can't shield grab, his combo game is limited to a few gimmicks which work poorly on Samus, he gets comboed easily, he hits and it's like 8 damage, Samus hits and it's 20+. He needs to charge his projectile, which gives us time to charge ours. Samus has a pile of attacks that deal enough damage to send the hydrant in our favour. Up-air needles in at just precisely the wrong angle for his air-to-ground game. He has trouble killing, Samus is a super heavy-weight. You get multiple chances to kill him out of his recovery. Basically Samus can be very aggressive vs. pac man.

@ Fluidityt Yeah I have that preface in there because I'm sure it swings differently in tournament. I feel Sakurai and his team balance the game looking at For-glory stats and I am unfortunately not helping the case for fixing some of the glaring issues. Or perhaps judging from the f-tilt change maybe it's a magic 8 ball they use.

 

[leiraD]

vs extreme disadvantage

Like, to the point where you should just give up your main and play Luigi or Shiek instead, or just spectate.

Samus is floaty, tall, has no return to stage options, no anti-air options, laggy ground options and very crap frame data on all her aerials.
Luigi beats Samus in every single way; great shield to resist projectiles, the best down-throw combos in the game (at any percent), guarenteed kill set-ups regardless of DI as low as 84%, a projectile designed to catch out floaty characters, lagless immediate aerials to break combos, superior specials, a kill throw, almost unpunishably lagless Smash attacks, etc.

Having played Luigi for about 2 weeks with another who knows all of his combo and kill percents, Samus does not stand a chance. A good Luigi will body a great Samus 99 times out of 100. If he had a sword, he'd be Metaknight.
Sorry, I love playing as Samus, but if you're facing Luigi, pull out a Shiek/WFT/Greninja/ZSS.

Esam is picking up Samus specifically to counter Luigi match-ups because he feels that Samus handily beats Luigi. I tend to agree. KayJay seems to think along the same vein and I do as well. Since Esam's one the top players in the world, and KayJay is arguably one of the best Samus', I think its a valid point.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Esam is picking up Samus specifically to counter Luigi match-ups because he feels that Samus handily beats Luigi. I tend to agree. KayJay seems to think along the same vein and I do as well. Since Esam's one the top players in the world, and KayJay is arguably one of the best Samus', I think its a valid point.

Have you seen Esam's Samus? It's a dream.
Look him up, there's about 15 matches of him with Pikachu and Samus vs a Zero clothes Samus

 

[leiraD]

I was just with him at a tournament last week. I saw. It needs work, but he's a highly skilled player and I'm excited to see what he'll be able to do with her.

 

[AgentM]

I know I'm still pretty new to the game, but at this point I've been playing as Samus for about 100 hours now, so whether that's comparable to you guys or not, just wanted to state my experience level before I share my opinion, should you choose to disregard it. Like DungeonMaster, my experience is mostly limited to For Glory, so take that for what you will.

When I make these matchups in my head, I really only consider the occasions on which I faced someone familiar with the character at the same (or greater) skill level than me. I also throw out all the times I beat people because they roll across the whole damn stage...

Under these conditions, I'm only confident the following matchups are favorable for Samus (sorry for the random order):
vs Heavy advantage
vs Advantage
vs Advantage
vs Advantage
vsAdvantage
vsAdvantage
vsAdvantage
vs Slight advantage
vsSlight advantage
vs Slight advantage
vs Slight advantage

And I believe the following matchups to be fairly even:

vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even

So that means I think every other matchup is some degree of unfavorable:

vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vsHeavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage

Call me crazy, or call me a scrub, but here's some rationale.

The short version is... most people on For Glory are really bad... I'm not trying to be elitist or condescending, but more often than not I find the players on For Glory are of the variety that roll across the stage, that throw out random or repetitive moves without really learning from their mistakes. I do not believe that is a true representation of the character match up. That being said, here are some specifics for some of the match ups I disagree with.


: A good Falcon is faster than Samus, will be in Samus's face all the time, can mix up better than Samus, and can kill at earlier %s than Samus.
: A competent Diddy can punish Samus far more than the other way around. For what it's worth, I've only ever come across a single legit Diddy on FG, but I'm fairly sure anyone at a competitive level would be able to utterly annihilate Samus.
and : When played well, both of these guys are played similarly: make a wall, spam projectiles, go in for the kill at high %s. Grown tree, gyroid before it starts moving, pocket, trick shot, clay shooting, and the gunmen all neutralize your projectiles and can be spammed faster than anything Samus can, forcing you to approach which usually leads to getting punished.

: A good Little Mac will never give you a chance to charge, or even let you land on the stage, which forces you to use your aerial game and/or grabs, which are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, which you eventually will, because his dash makes him such a small, fast target that Samus will struggle to hit. If you can get him off the stage or in the air, there's a chance, but a competent Little Mac won't let that happen.

, , : Fast, giant, sword hitboxes completely wreck Samus... Any amount of spacing knowledge on their part will allow them to interrupt any attempt to attack, and can gimp you out of screw attack really easily...

and : They have so many safe options it's not even funny. Quite good at baiting and then punishing. Spin dash has so many options before and after it hits that it's almost impossible to predict, and then even if you do, 75% the time there's no way to punish it. Meanwhile Shiek can pluck you out of many of your moves just with her f-air. Trying to grab competent players of these characters is a pain; they'll either stay airborne or out of range the entire time, and have an eternity to punish you if you miss.

: I have Link at slight disadvantage because his safe aerials last longer than Samus's "safe" aerials. Straight on, his d-air beats Samus's u-air. His bombs beat Samus's charge shot. He can KO you earlier than you can KO him, and his sword attacks hurt a lot... A Link with good game sense will at the very least be able to keep up with you, and put on some very threatening pressure.

: Before reading this thread I tended to believe Samus was at a slight disadvantage against Luigi, but I think I'll take a look at Esam before I jump to conclusions.

Again... the vast majority of people I encounter on For Glory are not capable of playing these characters to their fullest potential. I've only come across a handful of exemplary players of each character. But there's always the occasional competent player against which, despite trying my hardest, make Samus's shortcomings all the more clear. Those are the situations for which I base my opinions off of.

...But who knows, maybe I'm just really bad. If you think I'm off base on anything, or have any incorrect information, please let me know.

 

[AgentM]

Have you seen Esam's Samus? It's a dream.
Look him up, there's about 15 matches of him with Pikachu and Samus vs a Zero clothes Samus

Are there any videos out there against someone else maybe? His Samus is good but that ZSS let him get away with murder... Missed so many chances to punish.

 

[Hapajin]

I don't know many of the matchups as well as most of you folks here, but I think Ike is a bit underestimated vs Samus. It seems like he can safely pressure Samus with aerials while Samus lacks many safe moves on Ike. With either laggy or weak KO options, Ike can punish hard, and with his long sword length, Samus' floatiness doesn't help her get out of all his combos. Samus' projectiles help, but since she can't spam like in Brawl or Melee, Ike can approach easier, especially on stages with platforms.
I'd probably put this matchup at slight advantage for Ike personally.

 

[AgentM]

I don't know many of the matchups as well as most of you folks here, but I think Ike is a bit underestimated vs Samus. It seems like he can safely pressure Samus with aerials while Samus lacks many safe moves on Ike. With either laggy or weak KO options, Ike can punish hard, and with his long sword length, Samus' floatiness doesn't help her get out of all his combos. Samus' projectiles help, but since she can't spam like in Brawl or Melee, Ike can approach easier, especially on stages with platforms.
I'd probably put this matchup at slight advantage for Ike personally.

I'll definitely admit to not having much experience with the Ike matchup. I've only ever come across one competent Ike. The first two games he destroyed me, but after I caught on to Ike's options I consistently beat him. So, idk.

 

[Afro Smash]

There's 2 great Ikes in the skype group if you ever join (or have joined already), SM and Robin, if you want to practice vs great ikes i suggest pm'ing them

 

[KenMeister]

I know I'm still pretty new to the game, but at this point I've been playing as Samus for about 100 hours now, so whether that's comparable to you guys or not, just wanted to state my experience level before I share my opinion, should you choose to disregard it. Like DungeonMaster, my experience is mostly limited to For Glory, so take that for what you will.

When I make these matchups in my head, I really only consider the occasions on which I faced someone familiar with the character at the same (or greater) skill level than me. I also throw out all the times I beat people because they roll across the whole damn stage...

Under these conditions, I'm only confident the following matchups are favorable for Samus (sorry for the random order):
vs Heavy advantage
vs Advantage
vs Advantage
vs Advantage
vsAdvantage
vsAdvantage
vsAdvantage
vs Slight advantage
vsSlight advantage
vs Slight advantage
vs Slight advantage

And I believe the following matchups to be fairly even:

vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even
vs Even

So that means I think every other matchup is some degree of unfavorable:

vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Slight disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vs Disadvantage
vsHeavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage
vs Heavy disadvantage

Call me crazy, or call me a scrub, but here's some rationale.

The short version is... most people on For Glory are really bad... I'm not trying to be elitist or condescending, but more often than not I find the players on For Glory are of the variety that roll across the stage, that throw out random or repetitive moves without really learning from their mistakes. I do not believe that is a true representation of the character match up. That being said, here are some specifics for some of the match ups I disagree with.


: A good Falcon is faster than Samus, will be in Samus's face all the time, can mix up better than Samus, and can kill at earlier %s than Samus.
: A competent Diddy can punish Samus far more than the other way around. For what it's worth, I've only ever come across a single legit Diddy on FG, but I'm fairly sure anyone at a competitive level would be able to utterly annihilate Samus.
and : When played well, both of these guys are played similarly: make a wall, spam projectiles, go in for the kill at high %s. Grown tree, gyroid before it starts moving, pocket, trick shot, clay shooting, and the gunmen all neutralize your projectiles and can be spammed faster than anything Samus can, forcing you to approach which usually leads to getting punished.

: A good Little Mac will never give you a chance to charge, or even let you land on the stage, which forces you to use your aerial game and/or grabs, which are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, which you eventually will, because his dash makes him such a small, fast target that Samus will struggle to hit. If you can get him off the stage or in the air, there's a chance, but a competent Little Mac won't let that happen.

, , : Fast, giant, sword hitboxes completely wreck Samus... Any amount of spacing knowledge on their part will allow them to interrupt any attempt to attack, and can gimp you out of screw attack really easily...

and : They have so many safe options it's not even funny. Quite good at baiting and then punishing. Spin dash has so many options before and after it hits that it's almost impossible to predict, and then even if you do, 75% the time there's no way to punish it. Meanwhile Shiek can pluck you out of many of your moves just with her f-air. Trying to grab competent players of these characters is a pain; they'll either stay airborne or out of range the entire time, and have an eternity to punish you if you miss.

: I have Link at slight disadvantage because his safe aerials last longer than Samus's "safe" aerials. Straight on, his d-air beats Samus's u-air. His bombs beat Samus's charge shot. He can KO you earlier than you can KO him, and his sword attacks hurt a lot... A Link with good game sense will at the very least be able to keep up with you, and put on some very threatening pressure.

: Before reading this thread I tended to believe Samus was at a slight disadvantage against Luigi, but I think I'll take a look at Esam before I jump to conclusions.

Again... the vast majority of people I encounter on For Glory are not capable of playing these characters to their fullest potential. I've only come across a handful of exemplary players of each character. But there's always the occasional competent player against which, despite trying my hardest, make Samus's shortcomings all the more clear. Those are the situations for which I base my opinions off of.

...But who knows, maybe I'm just really bad. If you think I'm off base on anything, or have any incorrect information, please let me know.

No offense but I really just don't see how Samus has any sort of advantage over Mega Man.....like at all. I can agree with the other advantages though, but I don't really see her shutting down anyone hard enough for her to have a heavy advantageous matchup.

 

[leiraD]

No offense but I really just don't see how Samus has any sort of advantage over Mega Man.....like at all. I can agree with the other advantages though, but I don't really see her shutting down anyone hard enough for her to have a heavy advantageous matchup.

I think maybe Sammy has a heavy advantage against DK, but its the only one I can think of.

 

[KenMeister]

I think maybe Sammy has a heavy advantage against DK, but its the only one I can think of.

DK is like the best heavy in the game, I think you're underestimating him a bit too much.

 

[Squaddle]

most of you put the vs matchup as slightly favorable to samus... whats the reasoning behind that? Nayru's love shuts down most of samus's pressure options and the brief invulnerability it gives makes punishing a bit difficult, sure you can bait it out, but at equal footing I think her longer range, decent aerials, and fantastic reflector give Zelda a slight advantage on us if anything.

 

[Afro Smash]

DK is good, but how is he supposed to get around Zair and Up B Oos though? Bowser is fast enough to get in, Ganon is kinda the same as DK but has down b and side b, dedede has multiple jumps with fastfall to mix up his approach, DK has... I guess good shield damage?

As for the Zelda MU again Zair > Nayru's, if they're using it on the approach its end lag is punishable, not sure how she has longer range than us? Zair/F Tilt/Charge Shot give us the range advantage, but there was recently a discussion on Zelda boards MU thread if you wanna see some more opinions

 

[KenMeister]

DK is good, but how is he supposed to get around Zair and Up B Oos though? Bowser is fast enough to get in, Ganon is kinda the same as DK but has down b and side b, dedede has multiple jumps with fastfall to mix up his approach, DK has... I guess good shield damage?

As for the Zelda MU again Zair > Nayru's, if they're using it on the approach its end lag is punishable, not sure how she has longer range than us? Zair/F Tilt/Charge Shot give us the range advantage, but there was recently a discussion on Zelda boards MU thread if you wanna see some more opinions

Zair isn't that difficult for competent DKs to get past just by the virtue of his good dash>shield alone. And why should DK fall for OoS anyway? His main bread and butter is RAR bair and grab anyway, so if he spaces any of those well he won't get hit by UpB. Samus and Zelda seems evenish to mostly because of Zeldas better footsies, but Samus's better trapping and juggling ability.

 

[Afro Smash]

It's not easy for them to get through either, and that can just lead to easy conditioning for grabs. The only things DK has going for him in the MU are Up Air/Up Tilt juggles and having a kill throw to punish Samus' numerous laggy moves, however hes forced to approach all game and has linear predictable approaches, and even Nair and Bair aren't safe on shield unless they just do one Bair out of a SH and then retreat, which just gives Samus more space to zone

 

[Squaddle]

DK is good, but how is he supposed to get around Zair and Up B Oos though? Bowser is fast enough to get in, Ganon is kinda the same as DK but has down b and side b, dedede has multiple jumps with fastfall to mix up his approach, DK has... I guess good shield damage?

As for the Zelda MU again Zair > Nayru's, if they're using it on the approach its end lag is punishable, not sure how she has longer range than us? Zair/F Tilt/Charge Shot give us the range advantage, but there was recently a discussion on Zelda boards MU thread if you wanna see some more opinions

From experience her Bair/fair outranges our bair, same case with all her smashes vs ours. Zair can be a decent combo starter, sure, but its only a few percent at at a time and spamming it does get predictable. The key thing is that her reflector can shut down CS, one of samus's best kill options, forcing her to either use a tech chase (which is situational and takes silly percents to get now with the f-tilt nerf) or bait the nayru's love (but samus has bad startup/endlag with missiles and a good Zelda won't fall for easy bait).

I kind of feel like they're mostly even but the presence of zelda's reflect just pushes her slightly ahead.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I used DK as a secondary in Brawl. There were a few things that kept him from being in the top, most particularly chain grabs, but in smash 4 he's a shadow of his former self (customs excluded). A lot of design decisions have gone against him, from changes to his hitboxes, his hurtbox, the arrival of actual true combos and tight strings, the massive power-up of counter moves, bad roll, etc... anyhow. Read the DK boards, it can be about as depressing a read as anything here.
There are still proponents, and I still play him regularly. That being said, he suffers horribly against Samus, Samus can just f-air and even if he tries to air-dodge the final hits of f-air will hit him even with good air manoeuvrability his hurtbox is that big. He's total combo food, up-air forever. His recovery can be spiked, CS into his recovery is almost too easy. His overall kill power is actually considerably worse than Samus'. I'm always shocked when I play him at how even with rage people are living vs. moves that I was simply convinced would kill. Anyhow, I stick by my guns, Samus actually had advantage in this matchup.

 

[Lucy_ya dawg]

I don't agree with samus vs Tl being even.

She lacks all the capabilities to match his speed, projectiles. kill power and how do you kill what you can't catch? or fight off for that matter.

Could someone elaborate on this mu? Because samus only got worse from brawl and toon link is slightly better at killing but he still has all the old moves that beat her in brawl. How does your character getting worse and my character getting better make the mu even?

 

[KenMeister]

I used DK as a secondary in Brawl. There were a few things that kept him from being in the top, most particularly chain grabs, but in smash 4 he's a shadow of his former self (customs excluded). A lot of design decisions have gone against him, from changes to his hitboxes, his hurtbox, the arrival of actual true combos and tight strings, the massive power-up of counter moves, bad roll, etc... anyhow. Read the DK boards, it can be about as depressing a read as anything here.
There are still proponents, and I still play him regularly. That being said, he suffers horribly against Samus, Samus can just f-air and even if he tries to air-dodge the final hits of f-air will hit him even with good air manoeuvrability his hurtbox is that big. He's total combo food, up-air forever. His recovery can be spiked, CS into his recovery is almost too easy. His overall kill power is actually considerably worse than Samus'. I'm always shocked when I play him at how even with rage people are living vs. moves that I was simply convinced would kill. Anyhow, I stick by my guns, Samus actually had advantage in this matchup.

Go watch AverageJoe's DK then. He places about as high as Boss and Seagull Joe do on a regular occassion. His frame data is also better than it was in previous games, and his nair is finally useful for once. I mean, I won't deny that the DK boards were pretty down for awhile, but things have picked up as of late, recently. Also, why do you suppose DK loses to Samus anyway? Let's be real here, in every game beforehand, DK has always had the upper hand over Samus due to his superior grab and juggle game, as well as his superior midrange game. This was true even in Melee, where Samus is considered a top 10 character. I don't see how it'd be much different here even with zair, because it didn't mean much even in Brawl, even when taking in account its campier atmosphere and the fact Samus had a stronger projectile game in general.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ KenMeister Actually I've watched Average Joe quite a bit online, he's a beast no doubt and very entertaining. I gave my my reasons in the above post, but to emphasize and reword the bigger points DK needs to get multiple hits in to get Samus up to kill percents and Samus needs fewer things to land, i.e. DK has no combos and Samus has tons. DK is in a very similar situation as Samus in that his moves do not have great priority, his hurtbox is huge and very close to his hitboxes. DK has a horizontal recovery and Samus has a horizontal kill shot projectile. They both die at roughly the same %. In the balance, it's pretty rough on him.

@ Lucy_ya dawg Samus didn't only get worse from brawl, she's a very different character and I would never, ever, go back. Even as most claim Samus being the worst in this game - she's definitely an overall improvement over brawl. The CS in brawl was a joke, it killed only at ridiculously high %. I definitely do not feel TL is better in this game vs brawl. He's not my main, and this thread is not the right place to discuss it, but that's my opinion. I don't know how many times I have popped out of the first hit of TLink f-smash that would have otherwise killed me. TL is faster but not *that* fast. His projectile spam gets negated by CS, z-air and he has very little reach and despite having a sword his priority is not amazing, Samus can f-tilt him out of pretty much any of his ground moves. His grab is nearly as bad as Samus'.

 

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I have to disagree with everyone saying that C. Falcon has advantage over Samus. I would say it's even, at the least. Samus has the tools maybe not to outspeed him but at least use his momentum against him. I also have to disagree with being at heavy disadvantage with both Fox and Sheik. I'd say it's either even, or at a perceivable disadvantage.

Samus vs Luigi is also pretty even. Either one can combo the other into the 50% range or higher. The biggest thing Samus has going for her in the MU is the ability to gimp Luigi easily. That's where I get most of my bomb gimps.