wolf isn't that bad. Rob I don't get to play often enough to really know.
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Worst matchups.
- Thread starter Bl00dless
- Start date
Stryker
Smash Journeyman
HELP! Please?
I'm getting bodied by a a friend playing wolf who loses every other matchup to me, but god damn its such a hard matchup.
Miss grab, get destroyed. Fsmash and Running atttack go through shield.
I found that side b is a good tool for spacing, as it's kind of the right space that he needs to be in as well. My laser just get reflected, so I can't pull fully charged ones very often.
The worst part is this guy rolls like noones business, but I'm just too bad at the game to take advantage of it
It's frustrating when you're so bad you can't take advantage of worse players.
I'm getting bodied by a a friend playing wolf who loses every other matchup to me, but god damn its such a hard matchup.
Miss grab, get destroyed. Fsmash and Running atttack go through shield.
I found that side b is a good tool for spacing, as it's kind of the right space that he needs to be in as well. My laser just get reflected, so I can't pull fully charged ones very often.
The worst part is this guy rolls like noones business, but I'm just too bad at the game to take advantage of it
It's frustrating when you're so bad you can't take advantage of worse players.
BILL?
Smash Apprentice
If he rolls predictably, chase after him with a grab. You won't miss too much once you get the hang of it, just react to the start of the roll and space it so the grab should hit him in the ending animation of the roll, before he can dodge. (Rolls aren't invincible for the whole animation)
Roll away = dash grab
Roll behind=pivot grab or pivot dsmash.
Side B or dash attack can also work to chase a roll.
Try using more uncharged paralyzer and dashing right when the shot comes out. If you hit, you can hit him with an Uair or Nair. If you don't think you should attack, just dash back (dash dance) or wavedash backwards. (Plenty of tips on this in the ZSS boards)
If he fsmashes thru your shield, try something like short hop bair out of shield. Her shield grab is pretty bad so avoid using that often.
Roll away = dash grab
Roll behind=pivot grab or pivot dsmash.
Side B or dash attack can also work to chase a roll.
Try using more uncharged paralyzer and dashing right when the shot comes out. If you hit, you can hit him with an Uair or Nair. If you don't think you should attack, just dash back (dash dance) or wavedash backwards. (Plenty of tips on this in the ZSS boards)
If he fsmashes thru your shield, try something like short hop bair out of shield. Her shield grab is pretty bad so avoid using that often.
Myst007_teh_newb
Smash Journeyman
Little tidbits about the spacey matchup from my experiences:
Against spacies and particularly against shine pressure I find that Up-B OoS has actually helped fairly well. Unless they're spacing their shines well, you can get an Up-B OoS if they try to shine-grab or nair-shine-nair. Aside from that, I find that smart paralyzers into nairs/uairs is the best way to get something going out of neutral.
Starting combos from a fresh stock is tough. Because her grab is pretty poor, you either gotta go hard and try for those reads to get something started or just play a dumb poke game until your dtilt or a quick shffl'd uair can pop them up (Which is about 40% iirc). Seriously, bair pokes save the day until you can get spacies to a % where you can actually combo them.
Platforms are crucial for getting combos started early, I think. Anytime your opponent puts himself/herself above you, you have so many options to keep them there. Low % you can usmash juggle. ZSS's run speed is great, so they actually can't out-DI your movement if you can react to it I believe. Once a little bit of % is tacked on, ZSS has two juggle options: nair and uair. They serve very similar purposes, but cover different angles. Uair covers the above and in front angle while nair covers the above and slightly behind angle. If you're smart about positioning these moves, you should be able to cover almost all DI options your opponent takes. Once you hit that perfect %, your juggles should always be able to carry spacies offstage. And tack on ~50% every time. And the best part is that if they try to retreat to platforms, ZSS has so much coverage with her platform chasing options that you're still good to go.
You gotta work a lot in the matchup, but once you get past that initial hump, I feel ZSS has a combo game that can very reliably carry offstage and set up for ezpz edge guarding situations. Wolf especially should be a free edge guard most of the time. Dsmash to cover the sweet spot option and react to their angle. Sometimes ledge jump bairs can do wonders if you're comfortable with intercepting spacies. Also down-b divekick will force spacies to recover with side-B lest they want to get gimped super easy-like.
And if they're at kill % in neutral, you gotta just start fishing for those set-ups. Either start camping and spacing with full-charge blasters and Side-B or try to poke with bairs and dtilts.
I hate the spacey matchups, but they're definitely doable, I think. Run around with lasers and don't go to FD. Platforms help her so much with getting things going that going FD just hamstrings her so much. Pick stages with high ceilings, close sides, or good platform coverage. Personally I like BF, FoD, Yoshi's and WW. They help ZSS get her game going quick and kinda choke out spacies from running circles around you.
It's a volatile matchup for sure, but just play it smart, go for that smart, safe pressure with bairs and blasters in neutral, and when you get punish opportunities, punish HARD. That's what zss is good at and it's important to always be as safe as possible when playing against spacies.
Against spacies and particularly against shine pressure I find that Up-B OoS has actually helped fairly well. Unless they're spacing their shines well, you can get an Up-B OoS if they try to shine-grab or nair-shine-nair. Aside from that, I find that smart paralyzers into nairs/uairs is the best way to get something going out of neutral.
Starting combos from a fresh stock is tough. Because her grab is pretty poor, you either gotta go hard and try for those reads to get something started or just play a dumb poke game until your dtilt or a quick shffl'd uair can pop them up (Which is about 40% iirc). Seriously, bair pokes save the day until you can get spacies to a % where you can actually combo them.
Platforms are crucial for getting combos started early, I think. Anytime your opponent puts himself/herself above you, you have so many options to keep them there. Low % you can usmash juggle. ZSS's run speed is great, so they actually can't out-DI your movement if you can react to it I believe. Once a little bit of % is tacked on, ZSS has two juggle options: nair and uair. They serve very similar purposes, but cover different angles. Uair covers the above and in front angle while nair covers the above and slightly behind angle. If you're smart about positioning these moves, you should be able to cover almost all DI options your opponent takes. Once you hit that perfect %, your juggles should always be able to carry spacies offstage. And tack on ~50% every time. And the best part is that if they try to retreat to platforms, ZSS has so much coverage with her platform chasing options that you're still good to go.
You gotta work a lot in the matchup, but once you get past that initial hump, I feel ZSS has a combo game that can very reliably carry offstage and set up for ezpz edge guarding situations. Wolf especially should be a free edge guard most of the time. Dsmash to cover the sweet spot option and react to their angle. Sometimes ledge jump bairs can do wonders if you're comfortable with intercepting spacies. Also down-b divekick will force spacies to recover with side-B lest they want to get gimped super easy-like.
And if they're at kill % in neutral, you gotta just start fishing for those set-ups. Either start camping and spacing with full-charge blasters and Side-B or try to poke with bairs and dtilts.
I hate the spacey matchups, but they're definitely doable, I think. Run around with lasers and don't go to FD. Platforms help her so much with getting things going that going FD just hamstrings her so much. Pick stages with high ceilings, close sides, or good platform coverage. Personally I like BF, FoD, Yoshi's and WW. They help ZSS get her game going quick and kinda choke out spacies from running circles around you.
It's a volatile matchup for sure, but just play it smart, go for that smart, safe pressure with bairs and blasters in neutral, and when you get punish opportunities, punish HARD. That's what zss is good at and it's important to always be as safe as possible when playing against spacies.
herbmaster%
my dankchu is 420XX
I experienced the ZSS side-b/ up-b pillar madness this week. You guys have supplied me the answer: go falco. My falco was doing ok, but I kept putting my pikachu out there to get plasma'd. BTW, i think Modesty is a wonderful name for someone who mains Ness.
I wouldn't say I like Zard against ZSS. He's got range, sure, and he's certainly not the slowest character, but he's just way too big. I can see him getting tagged by a lot of things smaller and more mobile characters wouldn't have to worry about, and getting punished harder for those tags.
Phuriate
Smash Rookie
From personal experience as a ZSS main i'd say I have trouble with
Kirby, Diddy, Squirtle, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Falcon, Mario, Sonic and Pikachu (If they know how to do quick attack pressure)
Every other MU I feel is usually even give or in ZSS's favour.
I secondary Fox to deal with the above MU's and because I like my technical stuff =D
Kirby, Diddy, Squirtle, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Falcon, Mario, Sonic and Pikachu (If they know how to do quick attack pressure)
Every other MU I feel is usually even give or in ZSS's favour.
I secondary Fox to deal with the above MU's and because I like my technical stuff =D
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Giygacoal
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2011
- Messages
- 1,651
Best: Probably Wolf.
Worst: Charizard. She is very likely Charizard's worst matchup.
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Foo
Smash Lord
@
Phuriate
I agree with most of those, but I'd have to disagree with Falcon for sure. I can't say I've played enough against competent Diddys or Pikachus, but I know the falcon matchup is pretty good for ZZS. you laser forces him into the air (where he usually is anyway) and shffl nair will out space all of his aerials and you combo him easily. If you don't get read like a book and play more defensively, you can ruin his diagonal approach with nair and combo him pretty well out of it too. He doesn't have any options to approach you on the ground since you have lasers and down smash and he can't do anything if he's above you as well. The only problem is that zero suit can be combo'd pretty well by falcon, but with good DI and down-b timing, you can get out of a lot of combos. Pit should also be in htere as well. SO MANY JUMPS T-T
Phuriate
I agree with most of those, but I'd have to disagree with Falcon for sure. I can't say I've played enough against competent Diddys or Pikachus, but I know the falcon matchup is pretty good for ZZS. you laser forces him into the air (where he usually is anyway) and shffl nair will out space all of his aerials and you combo him easily. If you don't get read like a book and play more defensively, you can ruin his diagonal approach with nair and combo him pretty well out of it too. He doesn't have any options to approach you on the ground since you have lasers and down smash and he can't do anything if he's above you as well. The only problem is that zero suit can be combo'd pretty well by falcon, but with good DI and down-b timing, you can get out of a lot of combos. Pit should also be in htere as well. SO MANY JUMPS T-T
Phuriate
Smash Rookie
Maybe you're right, I possibly need more experience with the MU to work out how to deal with it effectively. My main gripe with the MU is his speed, getting him off ZSS is very tricky once he gets in (it's not really hard for him to get in either) and he not only combos her and pressures her hard, but he ruins her tether game...if he holds ledge he can react and knee her during her tether jump animation which is pretty brutal.@
Foo
Smash Lord
He actually does have a lot of trouble getting in. Like I said, nair beats out all of his aerials. He has to outplay you (for just a moment) to get in. Once he does get in, you are a good combo weight, but you have good tools to escape. It's also REALLY REALLY REALLY easy to gimp him. If you get him off stage, just nair him if he recovers high and downsmash him if he recovers low. His up B cannot sweet spot and does not hit stage at all. As for him gimping you, work on DIng upwards and towards stage. If you do this, you will have the option of recovering high unless you get hit REALLY far away. This is also a good way to avoid dying off the side early.
I haven't had the chance to test it, but I've heard that dropping off of tether and you start moving up on your tether (you only have a couple frames to do this) you still get your double jump back, so you can fake him out. I have never done or seen this, but I've heard casters say you can and that Oro?! was doing it a bunch.
Stryker
Smash Journeyman
If you know he is going to try to knee you, hold back when zipping up, and she will do that ledge jump, but then fall back to ledge. It should avoid the knee and put you on ledge, but if the CF decides to ledge hog and not knee, you will fall to your death
Phuriate
Smash Rookie
Pretty grim 50/50 I must say...Also the Falcon I keep getting pitted against isn't just a Falcon...he's one of the best melee Falcon's in Europe. I'm also pretty sure he's reacting to me popping up. He can also do exactly the same thing with up air to beat that mixup and reset the situation =/
leekslap
Smash Ace
Would Bowser be a tough MU for ZSS? I know Bowser gets combo'd to oblivion by pretty much anyone but ZSS's attacks are so weak it just makes me wanna CC/armor through all of of it. I say this because ZSS hurts my soul whenever I play her as Link so I switch to Bowser and its less painful. I am slowly realizing how nonviable Bowser is but he's so much fun! Although I might just switch back to Falcon or Ganon or Mario to deal with ZSS. Thoughts?
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Roche_CL
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2006
- Messages
- 410
I find link REALLY hard with ZSS, don't know why you find the matchup easier with bowser. ZSS struggles so much with spammers, and link's punishes her so bad. I have 2 friends who play Link, and i can beat em with my emergency Fox (which is sloppy and just have good fundamentals, not technical at all) and can't win with my ZSS -_-.
Maybe is just me, thoughts?
Maybe is just me, thoughts?
leekslap
Smash Ace
Well it's because ZSS neutral special goes straight through my projectiles, she outranges me and her mobilty allows her to evade projectiles alot easier so maybe it's just you idk. Link doesn't really have bad MUs aside from Falco, ZSS or Olimar so maybe switch to Falco sometime for the MU.
Foo
Smash Lord
So... how on earth does a Zero Suit player deal with sonic without being 10x better than them? In tournament, I ran into a player I had beaten the previous time fairly easily. The first time, she played marth and I beat her before I even learned any tech skill or tech chasing or anything, I was trash.
However, this time she picked up sonic. I watched her marth in melee, and she looked a little better, but not nearly as improved as I was. However, her sonic wrecked me. It felt like there was nothing I could do. Just down-b to more down-b to more down-b to more and more and more down-b. If I got hit by one, I was combo'd into nair and then had to avoid the spring gimp. She even beat my friend who is significantly better than I am.
So, how the hell do you deal with sonic? I've been thinking about the games for a long time now, but I can't think of anything other than upsmash out of shield since up-b out of shield didn't work. halp
However, this time she picked up sonic. I watched her marth in melee, and she looked a little better, but not nearly as improved as I was. However, her sonic wrecked me. It felt like there was nothing I could do. Just down-b to more down-b to more down-b to more and more and more down-b. If I got hit by one, I was combo'd into nair and then had to avoid the spring gimp. She even beat my friend who is significantly better than I am.
So, how the hell do you deal with sonic? I've been thinking about the games for a long time now, but I can't think of anything other than upsmash out of shield since up-b out of shield didn't work. halp
Oro?!
Smash Hero
If you just shoot a laser then Sonic can't charge downB. Be adamant with it that you will not approach if Sonic is just charging. You can slowly advance with laser too while Sonic is charging downB. You really can't punish it oos so just roll or wd away. This was my basic gameplan back when Sonic was considered broken in 2.5. There is a really old set of me vs Sethlon where he beats me, but ZSS was much worse back then (nair clanked, her throws had no follow ups, and dsmash did not stun on missed tech at low percent because it didn't cause enough KB to tumble) and Sonic was uhhhh, maybe the best character in the game? Maybe even current Mewtwo status or higher?
So yeah, here is a really outdated video of what I did vs Sonic
Edit: So yeah this was also when ZSS had only been released for 1 month so this is like early stuff that is mostly bad lol.
So yeah, here is a really outdated video of what I did vs Sonic
Edit: So yeah this was also when ZSS had only been released for 1 month so this is like early stuff that is mostly bad lol.
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Foo
Smash Lord
Yeah, I've watched that set xD. You and Sethlon are actually my favorite players, so looked it up lol. Was a little disappointed that sethlon was on sonic. I've actually watched several games where you play against a sonic, but all I can I can derive from them is "be much better than your opponent." I tried shutting her down with lasers in the sets we played, but she would just jump over them or charge from a platform and I couldn't get another laser out because sonic speed.
Are you sure there are no good ways to punish sonic moves? Also, is there some specific way you are supposed to DI out of his combos, or is it guaranteed?
I am just so sick of Sonic. I think the PM devs should make him like his modern games and have him suck lol
Oro?!
Smash Hero
If you get hit by downB, you are most likely getting naired. You can try to CC the downB at low percents, but that really only matters if they try to nair. If they just keep rolling around, you can't CC the multihit rolls.
Sadly, you kind of just have to force Sonic onto that platform game or keep him grounded with lasers. Once he is in the air, you have to read how he will approach and correctly position yourself and choose the right aerial to beat his approach. Don't get too overzealous and over commit to any option. Just try to hold center stage and intercept when he tries to run past you.
Other than that, never let Sonic get any uair strings going. Uair-Spring-Uair can kill earlier than Fox Uthrow-Uair depending on stage. You can SDI them similarly to Foxes, but it's harder to get out of actually.
Due to spring gimps, I would try to go to walled non-Yoshi's Story stages. Yoshi's is great as long as you are okay with Randall sometimes not allowing you to tether the ledge. Other than that it would probably be the best stage for ZSS in a lot of matchups.
Sadly, you kind of just have to force Sonic onto that platform game or keep him grounded with lasers. Once he is in the air, you have to read how he will approach and correctly position yourself and choose the right aerial to beat his approach. Don't get too overzealous and over commit to any option. Just try to hold center stage and intercept when he tries to run past you.
Other than that, never let Sonic get any uair strings going. Uair-Spring-Uair can kill earlier than Fox Uthrow-Uair depending on stage. You can SDI them similarly to Foxes, but it's harder to get out of actually.
Due to spring gimps, I would try to go to walled non-Yoshi's Story stages. Yoshi's is great as long as you are okay with Randall sometimes not allowing you to tether the ledge. Other than that it would probably be the best stage for ZSS in a lot of matchups.
_Chrome
Smash Ace
What do you guys think of the ZSS vs Samus matchup?
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AZ_Spellbound
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 12, 2014
- Messages
- 275
Fox, Falco, and Peach give me problems
ted dorosheff
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2015
- Messages
- 82
still waiting to hear about how OP's friend plays ZSS...
Roxas215
Smash Lord
I really thought it was in samus favor. But im learning its not really. Just like most of zss mus we just have to work ALOT harder then the other player.
Once zss gets in samus is in trouble. But we cant kill her and samus outwalls zss imo. Its 55/45 samus favor or even imo. If zss lands the first kill it's alot easier.
Spacies/Falcon/Kirby/Peach are zss worst mus imo,.
GHOST4700
Smash Apprentice
Sheik annoys me so much. What's everyone's opinion on the MU?
Foo
Smash Lord
It's about 70-30
I think shiek/zss is closer to 55/45 or 60/40 shiek favor. holding down beats shieks throw mix ups and down+away in general beats most of her combo game. ZSS has a super solid combo game of her own on sheik and super solid edgeguards.
Myst007_teh_newb
Smash Journeyman
I think the matchup is close to around 55-45 Sheik's favor. Sheik's offstage edge guarding game against ZSS can be almost completely circumvented just by dropping hella low. Her reel-in punish isn't that great, either, as she essentially just gets fair, which can be teched. So that sorta lets ZSS get away from one of Sheik's more deadly aspects. Needle gimps are cute, but infinite down-b sorta makes it irrelevant. It's not terribly difficult to get in on Sheik, either, as you really only have to watch out for her throwing out those huge, fast hitboxes. Once you're in, you're golden. She's got very little mobility of her own, so it's tough for her to play around you. You can CC a lot of stuff and get things started with dtilt, though Sheik can do the exact same thing to you. Sheik's recovery is so bad that getting her off stage is essentially the stock. Especially with ZSS's bair, you can really do a lot of damage just keeping her off of the stage.
I'd say that it's slightly in Sheik's favor if only because her combos are brutal on ZSS and her nair/fair will do a good job of walling you out if you space incorrectly. Sheik also gets huge conversions off of grabs, but that's part of the package. On the flipside, ZSS can dtilt into combo, utilt into combo, etc and force tons of edge guard situations when you inevitably carry them off stage and fair/uair them.
Running in like an idiot makes the matchup 80-20 or something, but careful dash dancing and maneuvering will push things closer to even.
I'd say that it's slightly in Sheik's favor if only because her combos are brutal on ZSS and her nair/fair will do a good job of walling you out if you space incorrectly. Sheik also gets huge conversions off of grabs, but that's part of the package. On the flipside, ZSS can dtilt into combo, utilt into combo, etc and force tons of edge guard situations when you inevitably carry them off stage and fair/uair them.
Running in like an idiot makes the matchup 80-20 or something, but careful dash dancing and maneuvering will push things closer to even.
100% agree with this. I've got a lot of Shiek practice, and can vouch.