I've recently run into an issue against a player that I train with regularly. I am finding it borderline impossible to deal with ZSS the way that he plays her. So which characters do you guys who play her feel give her the hardest time? Thanks in advance for any advice.
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Worst matchups.
- Thread starter Bl00dless
- Start date
BILL?
Smash Apprentice
Firstly, could you perhaps explain the ZSS play style that your training partner uses against you?
It would also help to know what characters you main and/or play against his ZSS.
But to actually answer your question:
Falco and Fox. The gameplay vs ZSS is about the same with either of them.
There's lots of info on these characters in the ZSS matchup thread, as well as in the Falco MU threads.
The short version: (i probably left some important things out)
Laser camping puts lots of shield pressure on ZSS, forcing her to approach. Keep out of "medium range" (i.e. about the range of her side B) as she has lots of good options at medium range. Instead, get in close for set ups and when the time comes you can kill her pretty early with uthrow>Uair or Usmash.
It would also help to know what characters you main and/or play against his ZSS.
But to actually answer your question:
Falco and Fox. The gameplay vs ZSS is about the same with either of them.
There's lots of info on these characters in the ZSS matchup thread, as well as in the Falco MU threads.
The short version: (i probably left some important things out)
Laser camping puts lots of shield pressure on ZSS, forcing her to approach. Keep out of "medium range" (i.e. about the range of her side B) as she has lots of good options at medium range. Instead, get in close for set ups and when the time comes you can kill her pretty early with uthrow>Uair or Usmash.
BILL?
Smash Apprentice
I should add that while Falco (and Fox) are probably ZSS's worst MU's, your mileage may vary (partly depending on how good you are with space animals).
HeadofHudet
Smash Cadet
I wonder if anyone knows how to handle the peach-matchup. I tried camping her at somewhere between long-, and midrange (I'm originally a brawl falco mainer), but she can just as well camp with turnips. Stun gun goes through her turnips, but she can easily shield it. I can bait her into getting grabbed that way, but her turnip counter-camping makes that hard, and add that turnip counter-camping can get REALLY ugly if she's lucky, I have troubles finding openings. All I can do is punish her in the air from below and space dsmash/side b reads well if I'm lucky with her decisions. In general, I'd like to know if anyone knows big dos and don'ts here.
I've picked up a few things on how to make it hard for peach to gimp ZSS, but my biggest problem is gaining my momentum back, or at least neutralize peach's. Her nair can execute and juggle from any option I do from the ledge and it beats all of ZSS aerials (from the ledge). What do I do?
Edit: I just realized that I wrote this in the wrong thread >_>
I've picked up a few things on how to make it hard for peach to gimp ZSS, but my biggest problem is gaining my momentum back, or at least neutralize peach's. Her nair can execute and juggle from any option I do from the ledge and it beats all of ZSS aerials (from the ledge). What do I do?
Edit: I just realized that I wrote this in the wrong thread >_>
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Wolf, Fox, Falco, Falcon, Sheik, Rob in that relative order are very VERY VEEEERY difficult match ups.
BILL?
Smash Apprentice
I despise ROB.
Also, Diddy is annoying as heck. So hard to zone him, and it can be frustrating just to keep up a combo when those damned bananas are everywhere.
Also, Diddy is annoying as heck. So hard to zone him, and it can be frustrating just to keep up a combo when those damned bananas are everywhere.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
puff = tuff. i have no idea how to challenge her in the air.
Uair all day. Specifically, if you dash cancel a baby Paralyzer from the correct range, she has to float above it to advance, and when she's at that height, a properly spaced uair beats everything she has. Since Paralyzer has laser priority, that means she has to do something about it. She can't just barrel through it with an attack to control space. She has to block it, or jump over it. Basically, your entire goal is to get her into the air, and then keep her there with uair.
Uair, uair, uair. Once Jiggs throws out a SH bair, she can do one of three things; 1. Empty land, but she has to give up horizontal space to do this safely, 2. land with a bair, which has landing lag that can be punished with dash dancing, and 3. DJ bair, which gives you an opportunity to get under Jiggs with a uair. Basically you have to challenge Jiggs by out spacing her, then using uair to get her above you.
R.O.B., Fox, and Sheik are the only match ups I really fear. Lucas and Squirtle are just foreign to me.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
IMO falcon isn't actually that bad, I actually think luigi and squirtle (only a really good squirtle with all the adv tech) can wreck a ZSS player.
Play a good Falcon. Please, I dare you. Enjoy being touch of deathed at 0%.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Lol, when ZSS and falco play truth or dare, he always picks dair.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I honestly don't mind Falcon. I acknowledge I'm likely bad at it, but like spacies, I feel like the only time I get hit was my fault, and that Falcon honestly can't do much to me if I don't mess up in neutral.
Spacies are still the hardest imo. I have gotten decent enough at the ROB matchup and created some anti ROB tech for specific situations.
Spacies are still the hardest imo. I have gotten decent enough at the ROB matchup and created some anti ROB tech for specific situations.
deadjames
Smash Lord
I'm pretty well versed in the ZSS MU from Luigi's point of view and I completely disagree, Luigi can't approach and gets completely outspaced. ZSS is one of his worst MUs imo.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
hmm, now that I think about it, you're right, I have no idea why I picked luigi.
what is "cg"?
Chain-Grab. Or so I would presume.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Yeah ROB can chain grab with dthrow starting at 0, much like Mario. Not sure how high either really goes though...
Teh-Shlurpie
Smash Journeyman
I have an extremely limited player pool to experience from but what are peoples thoughts on Wario?
the only Wario player I have access to I only see at tournaments and I struggle against, could just be that I'm bad at the MU though
the only Wario player I have access to I only see at tournaments and I struggle against, could just be that I'm bad at the MU though
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I feel like it's fairly even, maybe slightly ZSS favor. I have never felt hopeless against Wario except when uthrow would combo into uair and kill at like 80% in 2.6. Now with a weaker waft game and a couple of minor nerfs, it definitely feels a bit easier. For reference, the Warios I am basing this off of would be Reflex and Strong Bad. Vro as well, but I would hardly consider how he played Wario to be "conventional" lol.
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Man I want to play whatever non-existent version of PM where U-Throw -> U-Air KO'd at 80% you're talking about Kyle, that sounds like fun.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
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Man you know that stage ceiling is whack LOL
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Of course, but it's just that % range you feel you are at risk of dying. It's like vs Jiggs as a spacie, you are aware that one throw from 0% is your stock.
Saying I died at 100% is politically correct. It's not reflecting what it feels like in the matchup though.
Saying I died at 100% is politically correct. It's not reflecting what it feels like in the matchup though.
Teh-Shlurpie
Smash Journeyman
Cheers for the input.
if you feel its an even matchup i won't need to put much time into it.
Time to focus on Snake,Fox,Falco.
if you feel its an even matchup i won't need to put much time into it.
Time to focus on Snake,Fox,Falco.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
How does ZSS do against Marth/Roy. I keep encountering this matchup and I don't do that well. Is it a bad matchup or is there a trick to playing it well?
Oro?!
Smash Hero
It's fairly even I feel for both. Marth is the only character I did an extensive write up on during 2.5 http://smashboards.com/threads/zss-matchup-discussion-outdated.335020/
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
hmm, it would seem you recommend dreamland for the marth matchup, where does that put it in the stage viability for ZSS? Prior in the stage discussion thread you said it was a bad pick.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Well it's more the fact that Dreamland is by far Marth's worst stage in Melee. There are probably worse stages for him in PM like Skyloft/Skyworld among others. I still don't like dreamland very much on the whole, but that is likely because of kills being hard to come by against characters who generally like the stage, or characters that can outmaneuver you and kill you at low %'s regardless of stage like Fox generally are better there.
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BILL?
Smash Apprentice
I've kinda come around to not liking dreamland as much for zss, takes a while to get kills which can be frustrating. But vs Marth, it's good partly because he doesn't get the stupid Utilt>tipper Fsmash through platforms like he does on YS or BF.
Roy is harder to deal with than Marth. Both of their pressure is pretty annoying to deal with but zss can handle both of them with her spacing although roy is harder to gimp than marth due to the buffs roy received to his recovery. It is definitely easier to down smash marth's up b than roy's. As for spacies, they are pretty annoying but zss can gimp them so easily. I can't really say what matchup is the hardest for zss because I haven't played against all of the cast yet.
BladeOFLucas
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2013
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- 249
What's funny is that a lot of people always complain how good ZSS is, but then you guys talk about the characters that are really annoying for you. Do you think that ZSS has more terrible matchups than most, or fewer?
pinkdeaf1
Smash Ace
Pikachus which stay close, fire off thunder jolts to pressure shields, and punish shielding are my bane as Zero Suit.
Pure Royalty
Smash Cadet
zero suit has her downfalls, her weight is like marth in ssbm, great for getting combo'd. and she has a hard time killing. fox falco and falcon have no problem comboing you. (maybe wolf but I haven't faced a good one) unfortunately I do not know a lot about the matchups since ive only faced fox falco falcon lucario mewtwo dk Yoshi and toon link. (most of my smash friends play strictly ssbm or only a little pm with their melee mains so I don't know the new MUs) I'd go with fox falco or faclon, both shouldn't have a big problem dealing with zss.
After much deliberation, the only match ups as ZSS I particularly dislike are Peach, and Falco.
Modesty
Smash Apprentice
I've struggled with pit and wolf/fox a lot. ROB can be frustrating, but not impossible imo. Falco makes me want to pull my hair out though. Pretty much anyone with a spammable projectile is gonna be annoying.