Women-Only Smash Tournaments?

[|RK|]

Don't crucify me or anything yet.

But the other day, I was looking at /r/smashbros, and someone had mentioned something about women tending to play female characters. Someone had mentioned something about Officer Jenny, and I decided to check out YouTube videos. The only things I could find, though, were exhibition matches. A similar story lead to me looking up supergirlkels, but I ended up only finding 3DS matches. Recently, in the "notable players for each character" thread, I saw Officer Jenny listed as retired. Remembering players like milktea and whatnot at the Invitational, I was wondering why we don't really see these players much.

So my thought was "would women-only Smash tournaments get women to consistently show up to tournaments and play?" Would more women have an interest in something like that? For other sports, I'm aware that there are many women that will choose the women's tournament over the mixed tournament every time. Some of this is due to the fact that the women's tournament in these sports have been going on for a some time. They'll choose to practice against other women and they'll choose to become victorious over other women.

Most of the time, Smash tournaments will occasionally have a couple of women, but that's it. If we were to start holding regular women-only Smash tournaments (and that's for any and all Smash games), it could do a couple of positive things (this is of course, all hinged upon women showing up in the first place). One, more people involved in the Smash scene. Two, it would give women that are reticent to show up to Smash tournaments consistent competitive practice. Three, women may then choose to show up to the mixed Smash tournaments more often as well.

What do you guys think about this idea?

(And now, feel free to cast me into oblivion, suggest a better place for me to post this, etc.)

 

[HeroMystic]

This isn't a foreign concept. Starcraft has done this a number of times, and I'm sure other FGCs have too.

The issue is, logically speaking, there shouldn't be a reason for doing this. We actually have plenty of female competitors in our scene. There's just few that are at the level of Officer Jenny or Nyani and the rest are dominantly male. That's just how it is.

The real problem is we should stop treating it like a phenomenon whenever we see a girl playing a game. That puts them off more than anything else.

 

[OmegaSorin]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing this. I know quite a number of female smash players who focus on going to the 'smaller scenes' rather than the major tournaments for one reason or another. (Sexism, Bias, Ect).

A place where females can feel like they are actually taken seriously, such as a place that supports this idea, could help bring females onto the scene more often.

As HeroMystic said, there shouldn't be a reason to do this, but unfortunately there is because despite what we may 'think' Sexism and Bias towards female players -do- exist in every scene, and even if they don't that doesn't change all the horrible things other people have already put towards female gamers which makes a majority afraid to come forth.

So yeah, I think its a pretty good idea to put them in a scenario where they can feel comfortable and get a feel for the scene in general, and then as they build confidence strike out into the major tournies like Apex and such.

 

[WillLi]

I don't really think it'd would increase the number of women showing up to torunies. I'm not a woman so don't quote me on this, but if you made a women only tourney at first you might see a surge cause it'll be like "Well the smash community accepts women" but once the novelty wears off we'll be left with the same thing that's already there, even if the tourney continues, the only extra participants will be the ones that only go to that tourney anyway.

I would think the women not playing in tournies aren't going "Well there are so many guys, I don't want to participate" I mean there isn't really a difference between men and women in smash. With sports it's a little difference because of preconceived notions or physical bias.

Summary; might be a cool idea, but don't think it'll actually help increase the number of women playing overall.

 

[|RK|]

This isn't a foreign concept. Starcraft has done this a number of times, and I'm sure other FGCs have too.

The issue is, logically speaking, there shouldn't be a reason for doing this. We actually have plenty of female competitors in our scene. There's just few that are at the level of Officer Jenny or Nyani and the rest are dominantly male. That's just how it is.

The real problem is we should stop treating it like a phenomenon whenever we see a girl playing a game. That puts them off more than anything else.

There shouldn't be a reason; you're right. And certainly, we shouldn't treat it as a phenomenon when we see a girl playing a game. But that's simply not the world we live in right now. So women-only tournaments are a suggestion for how to improve things for women. No, most women aren't at the level of Officer Jenny or Nyani. At the same time, we should consider why that is. We all know that playing at tournaments are crucial to improvement. But if women don't feel comfortable at these tournaments, they don't show up, and they don't get that valuable experience. Women tune in, they don't see other women at tournaments, and they don't try to get into Smash in the first place. One thing leads to another.

I don't really think it'd would increase the number of women showing up to torunies. I'm not a woman so don't quote me on this, but if you made a women only tourney at first you might see a surge cause it'll be like "Well the smash community accepts women" but once the novelty wears off we'll be left with the same thing that's already there, even if the tourney continues, the only extra participants will be the ones that only go to that tourney anyway.

I would think the women not playing in tournies aren't going "Well there are so many guys, I don't want to participate" I mean there isn't really a difference between men and women in smash. With sports it's a little difference because of preconceived notions or physical bias.

Summary; might be a cool idea, but don't think it'll actually help increase the number of women playing overall.

That's certainly a possibility. But the idea is that we attract women that will actually enjoy Smash, and give them a space in which they can do that. If women aren't showing up because they see Smash as a guy thing or because they feel uncomfortable at tournaments, giving them consistent places to play would mean that more women would show up. It's not about the novelty, and we're not interested in people that don't want to play. That goes for mixed tournaments too.

The logistics wouldn't be super difficult, either. A TO could either make a woman's tournament on it's own, or run a women's event before/after the men's event, put them as part of the same event but on different days, etc.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I doubt there's enough female players around to do this

 

[popsofctown]

I think women only smash tournaments would be more like a WNFL than a WNBA, that is to say, my own personal interpretation of trends is that few women are in fighting games because women have a tendency to prefer enjoying other genres of video game. There's definitely some other factors going on, but I think they are secondary. So I think you won't really get a large snowball of female participation as result of such initiatives, while I think if you did the same thing for FPS's or MOBA's it might have a powerful effect.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

There's a weird social stigma of female competitive gamers. There certainly are female gamers out there, and I'm positive that they're better at me than gaming. However, even regular male competitive gamers have trouble being seen as stars. Even Korea and China, which has esports celebrities and are the epicenters of major competitive games like League of Legends or Starcraft 2, the majority of people in those counties sees gaming as a waste of time.

Honestly, it's not about having more female competitors. It's about changing the perception of what gaming is in general. Most parents are worried for their children's future, so when they see something as unstable as competitive gaming, of course they'll feel concerned about it. And that goes for society in general.

 

[|RK|]

I doubt there's enough female players around to do this

I think women only smash tournaments would be more like a WNFL than a WNBA, that is to say, my own personal interpretation of trends is that few women are in fighting games because women have a tendency to prefer enjoying other genres of video game. There's definitely some other factors going on, but I think they are secondary. So I think you won't really get a large snowball of female participation as result of such initiatives, while I think if you did the same thing for FPS's or MOBA's it might have a powerful effect.

These are possibilities, certainly. But I don't like the idea of assuming these things before we've even given it a genuine try. Particularly for a fighting game as unique as Smash.

 

[Sodo]

No reasonable person should care about the gender of a fellow Smasher. The question is: can they play? That also goes for sexual orientation, race/ethnicity/national origin, etc. In my opinion, holding a "Women Only" tournament would only serve to fracture the community. If women want to play, they'll come and play. Just like any male would.

 

[|RK|]

No reasonable person should care about the gender of a fellow Smasher. The question is: can they play? That also goes for sexual orientation, race/ethnicity/national origin, etc. In my opinion, holding a "Women Only" tournament would only serve to fracture the community. If women want to play, they'll come and play. Just like any male would.

No one should care, certainly. But for a variety of reasons, that's just not the world that we live in.

Secondly... we have five games in this series (six if you count the 3DS version), but the agent that would cause fracture is a women's event? I find that reasoning strange.

 

[popsofctown]

These are possibilities, certainly. But I don't like the idea of assuming these things before we've even given it a genuine try. Particularly for a fighting game as unique as Smash.

I follow.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Trying to compare this to sports is the wrong way of thinking about it. For physical sports, there is a legitimate reason why men and women have separate leagues: biologically, men have a much higher strength potential than women. This means that if an average man and an average woman train the same amount, the man will be stronger than the woman. When you create separate leagues for women and men, it will cause more women to want to play, because it is no longer unfair.

For Smash, it's a bit different. At least to my knowledge, there is no biological difference between men and women in regards to video game skill; an average man and an average woman should have the same skill level with the same amount of training. So why aren't there more women playing Smash? It's a social stigma. It has nothing to do with it being unfair, it is simply the fact that it is not considered socially acceptable for women to be avid video game players. Creating a women's tournament will not remove this social stigma in the same way that creating a women's sports league will remove the biological strength gap.

In other words, creating a women's tournament will not necessarily encourage more women to play.

 

[|RK|]

Trying to compare this to sports is the wrong way of thinking about it. For physical sports, there is a legitimate reason why men and women have separate leagues: biologically, men have a much higher strength potential than women. This means that if an average man and an average woman train the same amount, the man will be stronger than the woman. When you create separate leagues for women and men, it will cause more women to want to play, because it is no longer unfair.

For Smash, it's a bit different. At least to my knowledge, there is no biological difference between men and women in regards to video game skill; an average man and an average woman should have the same skill level with the same amount of training. So why aren't there more women playing Smash? It's a social stigma. It has nothing to do with it being unfair, it is simply the fact that it is not considered socially acceptable for women to be avid video game players. Creating a women's tournament will not remove this social stigma in the same way that creating a women's sports league will remove the biological strength gap.

In other words, creating a women's tournament will not necessarily encourage more women to play.

I'm fully aware of the reasoning behind separating men and women's sports. The idea is to create a space where women will be more comfortable playing. It will also potentially attract more women to Smash by showing other women that women do play. As I mention in the OP, it will give those women a chance to practice at tournaments, and hopefully enter into the mixed events. It's built around breaking down the social stigma that you mention.

Chess still has separate men and women's tournaments despite the fact that there is no biological basis for a difference in intelligence between men and women.

 

[Sodo]

No one should care, certainly. But for a variety of reasons, that's just not the world that we live in.

Secondly... we have five games in this series (six if you count the 3DS version), but the agent that would cause fracture is a women's event? I find that reasoning strange.

You are misinterpreting what I'm saying. There's no reason to hold a "Women's Only" tournament when there's plenty of tournaments for women to play in now. Why should we separate the already small minority when everyone should be treated equally? You may as well have a "Gays Only" or "Asians Only" tournament. See what I'm saying?

 

[digiholic]

You are misinterpreting what I'm saying. There's no reason to hold a "Women's Only" tournament when there's plenty of tournaments for women to play in now. Why should we separate the already small minority when everyone should be treated equally? You may as well have a "Gays Only" or "Asians Only" tournament. See what I'm saying?

Right. Having a Women's Only tournament implicitly says that women can't compete in the normal tournaments, which just isn't true. It's a matter of proportion, there's a lot more men in competitive gaming than women, which is a huge societal issue that isn't going to be solved by creating a Women's League. It'll be solved by major systemic overhaul of the way the entire medium operates over the next few years.

 

[|RK|]

You are misinterpreting what I'm saying. There's no reason to hold a "Women's Only" tournament when there's plenty of tournaments for women to play in now. Why should we separate the already small minority when everyone should be treated equally? You may as well have a "Gays Only" or "Asians Only" tournament. See what I'm saying?

I know exactly what you're saying, and my response stands. The fact is that women don't tend to compete in tournaments as they are now. Not in any significant numbers. People tend to speak of how people should be treated equally when they're already. The idea of a Women's Only tournament is, again, to create a space where women will feel more comfortable competing, and where more women can be drawn to play the game.

Right. Having a Women's Only tournament implicitly says that women can't compete in the normal tournaments, which just isn't true. It's a matter of proportion, there's a lot more men in competitive gaming than women, which is a huge societal issue that isn't going to be solved by creating a Women's League. It'll be solved by major systemic overhaul of the way the entire medium operates over the next few years.

No offense, but this "major systemic overhaul" you speak of is mostly empty. It's not an action; it's an expectation (or really a hope) that things change on their own without any work put towards it. That over the years, the natural course of things will bring more women in. That rarely (never?) works in terms of bringing in any change.

As for the other thing- as I've stated many times already, the reasoning is not because women are unable to compete with men. It is because they don't.

 

[Sodo]

I know exactly what you're saying, and my response stands. The fact is that women don't tend to compete in tournaments as they are now. Not in any significant numbers. People tend to speak of how people should be treated equally when they're already. The idea of a Women's Only tournament is, again, to create a space where women will feel more comfortable competing, and where more women can be drawn to play the game.

If anyone isn't comfortable competing then they shouldn't be entering a tournament. I see what you're trying to say but I have to fundamentally disagree. Like Digiholic said, there's just a disproportionate amount of males in competitive gaming. Yeah, there are a lot of girls that play but it's hardly a fraction of how many males do.

The last thing competitive female gamers need is to feel further separated from their male counterparts. We are a competitive gaming community, which means anyone of any walk of life is welcome to play if they think they can win. I don't think opening up a side tournament based on gender alone will help promote that ideology.

 

[|RK|]

If anyone isn't comfortable competing then they shouldn't be entering a tournament. I see what you're trying to say but I have to fundamentally disagree. Like Digiholic said, there's just a disproportionate amount of males in competitive gaming. Yeah, there are a lot of girls that play but it's hardly a fraction of how many males do.

The last thing competitive female gamers need is to feel further separated from their male counterparts. We are a competitive gaming community, which means anyone of any walk of life is welcome to play if they think they can win. I don't think opening up a side tournament based on gender alone will help promote that ideology.

I've seen this argument many times as reasoning to do nothing. Every social stigma, every bias has some reasoning behind it. We know that gaming has been devoid of women for a long time, and we know that when women show up to many gaming events, they are harassed, belittled, etc. There is history behind any trend. Your solution is to treat everything as equal, and hope that the years of mistreatment by the gaming community will go away on its own. That does not work.

There are more men in gaming period, and it has been that way because of the idea that gaming is a boys' club. Going from not welcoming to women to "oh, you can participate now" will not attract more women to competitive gaming.

Women are already separated from men so much so that they don't play these games. Opening up a women's tournament as an extra event offers them another route to competitive Smash. A route where they will feel more comfortable.

 

[Sodo]

I've seen this argument many times as reasoning to do nothing. Every social stigma, every bias has some reasoning behind it. We know that gaming has been devoid of women for a long time, and we know that when women show up to many gaming events, they are harassed, belittled, etc. There is history behind any trend. Your solution is to treat everything as equal, and hope that the years of mistreatment by the gaming community will go away on its own. That does not work.

I'm curious. How will the bullying, harassment, etc change because we offer a "Women Only" tournament? We live in an age and play a game where we, thankfully, don't have to separate our competitors. So why would we?

Obviously we both agree that anyone who performs these hurtful actions shouldn't be allowed to attend events. That's an entirely different issue, but the Smash community seems to be pretty good at plucking the bad eggs from what I've seen thus far. I know that in my community (MD/VA), anyone that harassed a female Smasher (or a male Smasher, for that matter) would be harshly reprimanded and potentially banished.

But I fail to see how this tournament is going to make female gamers more inclined to show up. Even if they did, I feel like the ones who have been playing for years already would be insulted at the thought of playing in a separate tournament from their friends and fellow competitors.

Although we disagree, the thought behind it is admirable and I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

 

[|RK|]

I'm curious. How will the bullying, harassment, etc change because we offer a "Women Only" tournament? We live in an age and play a game where we, thankfully, don't have to separate our competitors. So why would we?

Obviously we both agree that anyone who performs these hurtful actions shouldn't be allowed to attend events. That's an entirely different issue, but the Smash community seems to be pretty good at plucking the bad eggs from what I've seen thus far. I know that in my community (MD/VA), anyone that harassed a female Smasher (or a male Smasher, for that matter) would be harshly reprimanded and potentially banished.

But I fail to see how this tournament is going to make female gamers more inclined to show up. Even if they did, I feel like the ones who have been playing for years already would be insulted at the thought of playing in a separate tournament from their friends and fellow competitors.

Although we disagree, the thought behind it is admirable and I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

Indeed - I prefer that you decided to engage, though I disagree with you. I respect that.

You're right - people that harass other Smashers would rightfully be called out. But because there are so few female Smashers, just being unwilling to accept harassment won't change anything. The idea is to give women that already play Smash a comfortable space to play, sure. But it's also for the benefit of women that don't play Smash yet. There are women who would be willing to play, but simply haven't seen a reason to yet. So we want to attract them by showing them a significant number of women regularly playing. That's one of the best ways to show that women are welcome.

Certainly, there are likely some women that would be insulted by the idea of playing in a separate competition. But the thing is that they don't have to. The separation I'm vying for isn't men's division and women's division. It's mixed (the tournaments that we're all used to) and women's. Because we hope that women will play in the mixed division, too. I imagine that at a large tournament, like say EVO, women may go one day for the mixed event, and another for the women's event. We're not barring any women out - we just want an extra space that allows them to comfortably compete and a space that consistently features women such that we can attract more women to competitive Smash.

 

[Sodo]

Original post.

I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor.

 

[WillLi]

There are a few problems with this cropping up I'm seeing. This is being based on the idea that women do not compete in tournies because "They do not feel comfortable there." But is that actually the case? Was there a poll or something taken that stated that was why they do not compete. And if that is the case, was that uncomfortable environment there because the existence of males? Or the competitive nature of the event? Or something else entirely? If it's not specifically because they're uncomfortable gaming with the guys, then the whole reasoning falls apart as a whole.

Now ever if the reasoning stands, there would still be other problems that arise, and this is in essence something that irritates me about some people who claim to be shooting for gender equality but are not. If you make a women's only tourney, you -have- to make a guy's only tourney to correspond to every women's only. Otherwise women have more tourneies they can go to then guys and thus you have given them an advantage. You don't seem to bee intentionally shooting for that, but it's something many people don't think about but fall into.

The simple fact is that unfortunately as long as someone's race or gender or sexual orientation is something you have to consider for anything like a job, tourney, whatever, then there will never be true equality. Do I like this fact? No, but unfortunately that's just how it is. The more you try to force people to see some kind of equality or change social standards the more you're actually attempting to make things advantageous for your side, rather than making it equal.

Summary: Equality comes from being 'blind' to people's gender/ethnicity/sexuality, not by shoving awareness of it in people's faces.

 

[Warlock*G]

Whatever might work, go for it. If it doesn't work after all, go for something else.

 

[|RK|]

There are a few problems with this cropping up I'm seeing. This is being based on the idea that women do not compete in tournies because "They do not feel comfortable there." But is that actually the case? Was there a poll or something taken that stated that was why they do not compete. And if that is the case, was that uncomfortable environment there because the existence of males? Or the competitive nature of the event? Or something else entirely? If it's not specifically because they're uncomfortable gaming with the guys, then the whole reasoning falls apart as a whole.

Now ever if the reasoning stands, there would still be other problems that arise, and this is in essence something that irritates me about some people who claim to be shooting for gender equality but are not. If you make a women's only tourney, you -have- to make a guy's only tourney to correspond to every women's only. Otherwise women have more tourneies they can go to then guys and thus you have given them an advantage. You don't seem to bee intentionally shooting for that, but it's something many people don't think about but fall into.

The simple fact is that unfortunately as long as someone's race or gender or sexual orientation is something you have to consider for anything like a job, tourney, whatever, then there will never be true equality. Do I like this fact? No, but unfortunately that's just how it is. The more you try to force people to see some kind of equality or change social standards the more you're actually attempting to make things advantageous for your side, rather than making it equal.

Summary: Equality comes from being 'blind' to people's gender/ethnicity/sexuality, not by shoving awareness of it in people's faces.

We already know that gaming is often treated as a boys' club. In general, women are often harassed in these spaces, and therefore become reticent to enter them. The same is true of gaming journalism, STEM fields, etc. This is well documented.

Secondly... you'll note that I've responded to your type of reasoning already. "Let's wait it out" is not a solution. If you're aware that things are currently unequal, how do you believe that ignoring that is the best way to go? Equality absolutely does not come from being blind. To quote Superman ( :D ) "I wonder if being colorblind... also makes you just blind." Apply that to gender for the purposes of this topic.

The more tournies to go to thing isn't really something that I expect to be an issue at all. It's interesting... people are most concerned with equality when it preserves the status quo, and ignores the marginalized. What's wrong with giving this a shot?

 

[WillLi]

We already know that gaming is often treated as a boys' club. In general, women are often harassed in these spaces, and therefore become reticent to enter them. The same is true of gaming journalism, STEM fields, etc. This is well documented.

Secondly... you'll note that I've responded to your type of reasoning already. "Let's wait it out" is not a solution. If you're aware that things are currently unequal, how do you believe that ignoring that is the best way to go? Equality absolutely does not come from being blind. To quote Superman ( :D ) "I wonder if being colorblind... also makes you just blind." Apply that to gender for the purposes of this topic.

The more tournies to go to thing isn't really something that I expect to be an issue at all. It's interesting... people are most concerned with equality when it preserves the status quo, and ignores the marginalized. What's wrong with giving this a shot?

You kind of danced around the issue here. My reasoning is not "wait and see". I know "Wait and see" wont do anything. But look out at the world. Did black history month or businesses being required to hire a certain percent of ethnic minorities fix anything? No, instead we have people saying "You only got hired because you're in the minority and it looks good on paper." or "Why isn't there a white history month?" Or claims of racism against the majorities because the special treatment that borderlines favoritism and coddling of the minorities.

When money is on the line, more tournies is a big deal too, because that's more experience in the tournament atmosphere. It wont make a difference to long time tourney goers. But if a guy and a girl got into smash at the same time, at the same place and had the same ability to go to tournies, the girl would get so much more tourney experience and adjust to the atmosphere quicker before the big tournies, cause she has more she can go to. So when the big tourney comes around, the girl knows how to handle mental fatigue better, how to deal with distractions better, even the little things of just knowing the flow of a tourney better and knowing when to take a bathroom brake so you're not holding it in last game of a set. When you play for -money- all that makes a difference.

I don't like the status quo as it is, yeah there should be more girl gamers going public with it, and it'd be great for see a 50-50 gender ratio at tournies. But the simple fact is giving one side something specifically for then when the other side does not have something of equal value is not fostering equality. That's simply bolstering one side, not making things equal.

If you want women to feel comfortable then put effort into that, not into separating them. Crack down on the behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable, and remove all gender based comments together. No shouting "Man up" from the audience when someone tries to stall out the clock. No saying "That was a ballsy move". Ect.

It sounds nitpicky but if you're saying they're uncomfortable because of gender related comments, then you get rid of the gender related comments, and not just the ones against the girls, but against the guy's too. The actual idea that "Girls being with just girls will get rid of the problem of girl gamer hate" is in itself sexist. What's to stop girls who hate gaming from picketing the venue with "Girl Gamers make women look bad" signs? Nothing really

Edit: So to be clear, Girls in gaming? Cool, I'd love to see more. Girl tournament? Sure, if there's a guy only one too. If people don't think that supports their cause then they're not really shooting for equality, but rather simply favoring the girls. Is that wrong? No, we're each entitled to an opinion, but don't call it something that it's not.

 

[Ignoth]

I doubt there's enough female players around to do this

There are probably more than you'd think. The female players I know are hesitant to go to social gatherings for reasons other people have mentioned. They'll play online, sure, but even then they typically choose gender neutral gamer tags.

 

[Pyr]

What sort of TO is allowing open harassment of female gamers without punishing offenders?... Or Harassment in general?

Answer: Bad ones.

Let me play devil's advocate a little bit so I keep myself out of a gender debate.

If female players don't feel comfortable attending a smash tourny or scene, it's a management problem AND a scene problem. This has all the best intentions, but it's not a solution to a bigger issue. It might even cause bigger problems in the harassment area.

That, and there aren't many females in Smash in the first place. Less then the overall average for other games. I've been to a lot of tournies and fests and I'd say that females are rarer then 3 Luigi miss-fires in a row. Not because they were harassed out of them or anything like that. Female presence just isn't there, and has never been there, at high/top levels. At low to mid levels it gets better, but is still low.

If it isn't a harassment problem or a fear problem or a comfort problem, the problem could be simple: there just isn't a female interest in this game. And that's ok. Sometimes, a game misses a demographic. It's very common.

In short, if there is an issue of any sort of negativity towards female players that keeps them from attending anything, a female-only tournament won't fix anything major. If it's not an issue of negativity, it could just be the demographic is small. If there is an issue with uncomfortably, harassment, or abuse, it's got to be tackled at the source.

 

[Timbers]

OP is a good ****ing post and we should really look to make this a reality.

instead we have people saying "You only got hired because you're in the minority and it looks good on paper." or "Why isn't there a white history month?" Or claims of racism against the majorities because the special treatment that borderlines favoritism and coddling of the minorities.

and these people are absolutely wrong and are a constant stain on our society.

Girl tournament? Sure, if there's a guy only one too. If people don't think that supports their cause then they're not really shooting for equality, but rather simply favoring the girls. Is that wrong? No, we're each entitled to an opinion, but don't call it something that it's not.

This sounds incredibly privileged. WE ALREADY HAVE male only tournaments. Just because this isn't plastered on rulesets, doesn't hide the fact that there is a large social stigma in gaming against women. It is incredibly easy to feel singled out as a woman trying to attend a gaming social of 100 people and all of them are men. Women are often objectified and looked on as "joke gamers" in competitive gaming. If you've been to tournaments, you'll see this. Even guys' girlfriends get the constant "omg insert-male-gamer you're so lucky you have a girl gamer as desu kawaii gf."

There are many "bad" players at tournaments, but being a bad female gamer is likely seen as reinforcing a stereotype that women are bad at videogames, and keeps women out of these situations. This is also very much noticeable at tournaments, and very much so in Twitch chats.

These stigmas are also very real in the medical field against men. Male nurses or dental hygienists in particular are quickly considered to be weak men, or homosexual (which in this context, being "weak" and "homosexual" go hand in hand). When you are the odd one out in any social setting or professional field, you are much more easily targeted than if you amongst similar individuals. Why must anyone subject themselves to these belligerent opinions?

This is why female only tournaments or smashfests or whatever become a great idea. It creates a safe place for women to do what they enjoy doing and come together around a hobby that they love. It's true that these groups will likely not see as much participation as men, but that's primarily due to the root of this problem being much deeper than just Smash, or fighting games, or even videogames in particular. There is a strong point of contention in regards to women in the tech industry. "Brogammers" still flourish (unfortunately) in tech companies, and notably so in the gaming industry. Do you want to know of a similar example of female-only fighting game settings that actually work very well? Look at women in tech. There are women only codeschools, hackathons, conferences etc. that look to educate and indulge groups of women in tech and are able to come together without constantly addressing the misrepresentation and lack of representation in general of women in tech.

These projects do VERY well to bring women together, and help integrate groups of likeminded and talented individuals, that happen to be female, into their professional field. Much can be said of a similar outcome for videogames (Smash), and will help build a more diverse and accepting Smash community.

What sort of TO is allowing open harassment of female gamers without punishing offenders?... Or Harassment in general?

[...]

If female players don't feel comfortable attending a smash tourny or scene, it's a management problem AND a scene problem. This has all the best intentions, but it's not a solution to a bigger issue. It might even cause bigger problems in the harassment area.

Addressing the issue of "harassment" is never black and white. No one is going to come out and say "damn girl nice boobs," but the thoughts are there. When you have the presence of anonymity on say, Twitch, a lot of those mere thoughts are much more outspoken. "omg a grill 10/10 would bang kappa" is hella common. Riding this off as simply "lol internet" is fine I guess, but doesn't change the fact that these thoughts exist, and choosing to not put yourself in a situation where having these thoughts about you be a very real thing is an obvious turnoff.

It's not a management problem (mostly) but more of just a general lack of comfort and feeling secluded. I don't think I'd be wrong at all to say that many men would not attend tournaments if their gender/sexual demographic did not align with their own. If tournaments were normally run by women and had a turnout rate of 99% women, men would much less likely attend for different reasons. Men get a lot of **** for losing to women in videogames (however this mostly circles back to women being bad at videogames, and if you lose to a female gamer then you are even worse). Men would also be perceived as "lol you play girl games."

I would also gamble that many men would not attend a smash tournament if 99% of those men were "out of the closet" homosexual.

EDIT: doublepost, but dont care lol. this is important.

 

[Sodo]

In short, if there is an issue of any sort of negativity towards female players that keeps them from attending anything, a female-only tournament won't fix anything major. If it's not an issue of negativity, it could just be the demographic is small. If there is an issue with uncomfortably, harassment, or abuse, it's got to be tackled at the source.

You've hit the nail on the head. I 100% agree with this entire statement.

 

[Pyr]

Addressing the issue of "harassment" is never black and white. No one is going to come out and say "damn girl nice boobs," but the thoughts are there. When you have the presence of anonymity on say, Twitch, a lot of those mere thoughts are much more outspoken. "omg a grill 10/10 would bang kappa" is hella common. Riding this off as simply "lol internet" is fine I guess, but doesn't change the fact that these thoughts exist, and choosing to not put yourself in a situation where having these thoughts about you be a very real thing is an obvious turnoff.

It's not a management problem (mostly) but more of just a general lack of comfort and feeling secluded. I don't think I'd be wrong at all to say that many men would not attend tournaments if their gender/sexual demographic did not align with their own. If tournaments were normally run by women and had a turnout rate of 99% women, men would much less likely attend for different reasons. Men get a lot of **** for losing to women in videogames (however this mostly circles back to women being bad at videogames, and if you lose to a female gamer then you are even worse). Men would also be perceived as "lol you play girl games."

I would also gamble that many men would not attend a smash tournament if 99% of those men were "out of the closet" homosexual.

EDIT: doublepost, but dont care lol. this is important.

It's not an internet problem. It's a community problem.

And you would be wrong in saying that, actually. In my experience, turnout isn't affected by the saturation of a demographic. Turnout usually matches that demographic at specific levels. And homosexuality doesn't play that big a role. If it did, my time at tournaments would be lesser overall.

Really, this isn't a social issue like you're making it out to be. It's a behavioral issue if it's present. A feel-good get-together won't change participation at all levels of play. I'm not against the idea, don't get me wrong. I'm just recognizing that the focus should be elsewhere.

 

[GSM_Dren]

I like the idea, and it has a good intention, but logistically would it work? Women-only tournaments invite any female gamer to come and test their skill against women, but how many entrants do you think would participate to actually make it a sizable tournament? Obviously this would be a main event kind of thing, so what would you expect the rest of the population to be doing in the meantime, be the audience or play friendlies? And at the end of it all, it seems like female gamers would be treated differently. "Hey you won the women-only tournament? -- Let's see how you do against guys!"

This is a community/scene issue, that definitely must be addressed worldwide; the stigma of female gamers not being able to compete on equal level as male gamers is a bad notion for every video game. Women-only tournaments may serve to help/hurt the issue, and we should find alternative ways as well to get female gamers to be more comfortable playing the game they love in a safe environment.