Wolf's Metagame Discussion

[ArcPoint]

Alrighty, I feel like having another one of them metagame discussion threads.

Basically we're gonna be talking about Wolf's current and potential future metagame.

Metagame being as defined by the Smash Wiki: In a general sense, the term metagame refers to trends within how that game is played by its players, or a subset of its players. At any time, certain characters, strategies, tactics, tricks, skills, etc. may be popular. The metagame tends to evolve over time, as players adapt to it in order to gain an advantage, and then others adapt to these adaptations, and so on.
For example, if Tactic A is popular within a gaming community, some players may choose to use Tactic B for the advantages it offers over Tactic A, even though Tactic B may be considered a poor choice in most other circumstances. Likewise, Tactic C, while usually strong, may be avoided because of its vulnerabilities to Tactic A. Eventually Tactic A may become less prominent as more players adapt to it. Tactic C may come back into vogue as a result, or an entirely new effective tactic may be discovered.

So yeah, first strategy I wanna talk about is the "Wall of pain" or the "Bair wall" that people so frequently used way back in the day.

Discuss.

 

[tekkie]

"Bair wall"

^wolf's metagame. everything else is a mixup option

 

[Arrows]

Good if used right. If used wrong, quit wolf.

I think that the bair wall is his amazing approach option, because if done perfectly, the only char that can shield grab him is olimar. It's just too good, the range, priority, damage etc.

Now we've found other ways of approaching, but I still think that the wall is the best one.

 

[Ishiey]

Actually, nobody can shieldgrab a properly done FF bair.

It's still very good, definitely. The reason it got "old" is because players relied on it too much and didn't mix it up enough. It was either bair > bair or bair > AD 90%+ of the time. Not saying that there's anything wrong with either of those, but it's just too predictable after a while, of course people will find a way to counter it.

You can string multiple attacks together, zone with it, kill (if fresh), and deplete the opponent's shield with the Wall, there are probably other things that I forgot. The main point is, it can do everything, but sadly your opponent likely has a way to counter everything too, hence the importance of mixing it up.

I'm tired and failing atm, so I'll leave it at that for now, but there's a LOT more to be said. Please only make serious comments in here though, k? Let's try to get the most out of a real metagame discussion >__>

 

[ArcPoint]

Yeah, the bair wall thingy is a great spacing strategy. For some reason people always feel the need to shield that first bair. Even though it can't hit 70% of the cast lol. When they're in their shield it limits movement...so it gives you control. Really great thing until they figure it out.

 

[-Jumpman-]

This is the Dutch Wolf metagame. Vids from last weekend: http://www.filefront.com/14749213/Mr.R- ... inals.mp4/

Sorry for the lack of a youtube link. Critisize, be inspired etc.

 

[castorpollux]

downloading it right now. I'm excited to see it

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Can someone PLEASE upload that to YouTube? My computer can't update, for now, to the higher versions of realplayer and windows media, so I can't view anything. >_<

 

[castorpollux]

yeah i'll upload it to youtube if its okay with jumpman

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Yeah, I realized after speaking with Ish that I could stream it, but even that was choppy, unfortunately. Thanks Castor.

 

[Ishiey]

I didn't really see anything too interesting or unique, but it reminded me somewhat of Jumpman's Wolf, sorta.

I love looking cool at least as much as the next guy, but... that's not always what's effective, clearly. T used a LOT of bair walling and safe spacing. True, he made his fair share of mistakes and has his bad habits, but what works, works.

I saw lots of fair kills, but those... probably shouldn't've worked as well as they did (yes, shouldn't've). Once Mr R found out how to avoid midair fair kills, he was living to high %s, especially because T's bair was sooooo stale.

I think that might be the main problem with too much bair wall, actually. Staling bair that much when you need to kill can be a SERIOUS problem against good oppoents.

 

[castorpollux]

well, just stop bairing once tehy reach 100% then once they reach 130-140 ur bair should kill them

 

[-Jumpman-]

Sure go ahead JJ, they have to be uploaded anyway.

 

[castorpollux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CQnvavlMWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Cw0A0tNX0


Uploaded


**Edit**

His bair game is very good. Very well spaced and very clean. I dont think he should've used aerials when Marth missed the up Bs though. Otherwise, I like this Wolf a lot

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mr.R is one of the best players in the EU and also one of the best Marth's overall. There's a really good set of him vs Marcbri's Falco on youtube that I'd recommend watching if you want to see how he plays. I think he could've done better vs T but it doesn't really matter because T played well.

T has a good Wolf, I've seen him play on CiB but I don't think he's the best Wolf in the EU. It's hard to tell but imo it's either Semifer or Starwolf (what a creative name -_-) but I also hear a lot of good things about King from France. In general Wolf is considered a B-Tier character in europe and he's also usually in the B-Rank of the european character rankings (which are a lot more balanced than US rankings - we have no M2K, who can single handedly screw a whole metagame ). He's also A-Tier in japan ...

Edit: There are a lot of things that I'll implement into my play sooner or later that I found to be effective. I hope I'll get to beat some of our better players or place high in tourney. I need to travel more - getting top3 in locals doesn't mean much -_-

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Like JJ said, very good bair game. I noticed very little use of the UpB, kills with fair, NO upsmashes, lots of unsafe blaster (followed by fair), and a couple other things. Overall, I liked the Wolf, but it's game could be improved upon by quite a number of things.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Against the poster above me, usmash is far to unsafe against marth. If you start a dacus against an aerial marth (especially mr r) you're gonna get punished. T just played very safe, which is very smart against mr r.

Mr.R is one of the best players in the EU and also one of the best Marth's overall. There's a really good set of him vs Marcbri's Falco on youtube that I'd recommend watching if you want to see how he plays. I think he could've done better vs T but it doesn't really matter because T played well.

Tbh man, the mr r vs marcbri match was not all mr r could do, he wrecks more *** than that. No offense to marcbri ofc, hes a solid falco.

T has a good Wolf, I've seen him play on CiB but I don't think he's the best Wolf in the EU. It's hard to tell but imo it's either Semifer or Starwolf (what a creative name -_-) but I also hear a lot of good things about King from France. In general Wolf is considered a B-Tier character in europe and he's also usually in the B-Rank of the european character rankings (which are a lot more balanced than US rankings - we have no M2K, who can single handedly screw a whole metagame ). He's also A-Tier in japan ...

Europe doesn't have a tier list, what the *** are you talking about? If you'd ask the dutchies wolf is a-tier just because of Gaki/Moreno. And I really doubt that semifer is better, while good, he's not better then T. I played starwolf a small bit too at cib and he's certainly no better then T.

Edit: There are a lot of things that I'll implement into my play sooner or later that I found to be effective. I hope I'll get to beat some of our better players or place high in tourney. I need to travel more - getting top3 in locals doesn't mean much -_-

Yeah gheb, come to winter tourney in holland so I can prove ya wrong.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Against the poster above me, usmash is far to unsafe against marth. If you start a dacus against an aerial marth (especially mr r) you're gonna get punished. T just played very safe, which is very smart against mr r.

Honestly, anyone can punish dacus if they see it coming, but I wasn't necessarily talking about dacus, just upsmash plainly. But that was also wrong. haha I was looking at the match generally, not MU specific. But I don't think an upsmash here or there would hurt. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Not trying to defend T or something, I'm very doubtful of his skills at the moment myself. But I think his spacing is very good apart from his repetitive patterns.

 

[Laem]

xonar sooo hostile xD. T here btw, just to let u know all input is appreciated. Feel like there's 1 thing i gotta say though, unsafe blasters are often unintentional (input fail >.<). Luckily, its not always that bad.

Also, semifer is not a better player than me (i lol'ed when i broke his shield with warlock punch) ah well i better stop hating now

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

xonar sooo hostile xD. T here btw, just to let u know all input is appreciated. Feel like there's 1 thing i gotta say though, unsafe blasters are often unintentional (input fail >.<). Luckily, its not always that bad.

Also, semifer is not a better player than me (i lol'ed when i broke his shield with warlock punch) ah well i better stop hating now

Hostile? Just giving my opinion and some facts.
No jens.

Giggidy.

 

[Ishiey]

T, what input were you trying to do with all those blasters? Just out of curiosity, because I really can't imagine what you meant to do x_x


Also, let's try not to get too caught up in the video, if anyone wants to talk more in-depth about it in the video thread. Not saying you can't discuss it, but make sure it relates to Wolf's metagame and not just the video.

 

[Laem]

i sometimes accidentily press B when c sticking (and i use c-stick more than the A button, lol)
other than this there's of course the reverse b fail which made me side b at the beginning of match 1 xD

also, i was suprised in the first place that my vid was discussed in this thread instead of the wolf critique >.<

 

[Ishiey]

Ah lol, yeah I see now, that makes sense. You really should get used to avoiding that mishap, it was one of the biggest flaws you had

Okay, I'm done talking about the vid lol. Back to the bair wall, how many people still try to shieldgrab you after the second one when you're out of range? It's a bad habit that a friend of mine has, and it makes for such an easy dsmash kill...

 

[MidnightAsaph]

People I play seem to think it's over. And as I've said before, only once I think, it's effective after the first bair (that hits) to bair once at the top, fall behind opponent a fair. It sounds stupid, but it actually works, and it really gets that damage in there.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dutchies...as biased as ever

Spoiler

j/k

Tbh man, the mr r vs marcbri match was not all mr r could do, he wrecks more *** than that. No offense to marcbri ofc, hes a solid falco.

No johns.

Europe doesn't have a tier list, what the *** are you talking about? If you'd ask the dutchies wolf is a-tier just because of Gaki/Moreno.

I'm basing this:

- on the european character rankings list, where Wolf is either B-Tier or at worst top of C-Tier
- on the opinions of european brawl players. I went to TNOT2 and neither there nor at CiB people thought of Wolf as a C-Tier character

Besides I never said that there's an european tier list. European tourney results and the opinion of the players imply that Wolf is considered at least B-Tier.

Yeah gheb, come to winter tourney in holland so I can prove ya wrong.

I'm trying to convinve Luigi_player to come along with me. But then again I'd feel bad about taking him along because he'll snatch all your money

Also, semifer is not a better player than me (i lol'ed when i broke his shield with warlock punch) ah well i better stop hating now

I never said he's a better player than you but I think his Wolf is better. You're a lot better in doubles no doubt and you're D3 is really good too so in overall skill I'd agree your better than him

Just giving my opinion and some facts.

More of the former though.

 

[Semifer]

xonar sooo hostile xD. T here btw, just to let u know all input is appreciated. Feel like there's 1 thing i gotta say though, unsafe blasters are often unintentional (input fail >.<). Luckily, its not always that bad.

Also, semifer is not a better player than me (i lol'ed when i broke his shield with warlock punch) ah well i better stop hating now

That's not a reason for saying you are better than me, otherwise I could say I'm better because I zero to death'd you after that stock, and I suck @LT, lol.
Nevertheless I think you're a better player than me, maybe not exspecially your Wolf, but overall^^.

 

[ArcPoint]

Now now guys...this isn't a European Regional thread (However interesting this might be)...this is a place for us to discuss Wolf's metagame. Although, we managed to get another pretty good Wolf from the EU to join us hopefully =)

Back to the bair wall. It seemed that T's (Or Laem's?) use of it was good, but then predictable. I noticed Mr. R was starting to powershield bairs, and that meant he knew what was coming and when it was coming sometimes.

For those who don't quite know how to react to it, it seems like they kinda turtle in their shield a lot more. Even when I just full hop - no attack - people will start shielding, and that does wonders for me. Because then they're stuck in that position, and I have a ton of airspace that I can cover with Wolf.

 

[Healer]

bair wall, ha, I don't do that enough! I find it makes me to predictable and i can't execute it with short characters, so I just do retreat fairs and occasional bairs (but that is why i'm only decent and not good lol)

 

[Arrows]

For short characters I do, FH, bair, DJ, Nair, bair.

 

[ArcPoint]

For any character in the game I full hop, for any character in the game I bair, for any character in the game I double jump, same with Nair and bair.

I'm confused as to what you were trying to say there.

 

[Arrows]

Lol lol what i meant was
Do this, followed by this, followed by etc.

 

[ArcPoint]

As a general rule, no two moves in a row is guaranteed, it can be escaped if they do an option that you're not covering. The few hitstun combos are obviously the exception to the "general" rule.

So I mean, if almost nothing is guaranteed, why bother with "strings" of moves is MY personal opinion.

However, certain moves are just magnets for certain reactions, even the smarter players who vary their reactions based on the situation. For example a FF Bair on a shield will...depending on how good the spacing (barely out of grab range for example, or if you abuse the sliding mechanic) it will bait a grab, of which you can punish directly with a Fsmash, or indirectly with something else. But yeah, it's rather difficult to bait them into anything, because a good player will mix up their reactions.

 

[Arrows]

Meh it worked against Kprime a couple times yesterday.

I guess it's particularly good on wifi cause imo, I can't hit ******* with bair on wifi for some reason, I always end up missing them, so this helps.

I'll see what else I can do with this later.

 

[Apollo$]

Meh it worked against Kprime a couple times yesterday.

I guess it's particularly good on wifi cause imo, I can't hit ******* with bair on wifi for some reason, I always end up missing them, so this helps.

I'll see what else I can do with this later.

You gotta fast fall it, brah

 

[Ishiey]

I've seen a lot of people use FH bair > fair crossover. It's a pretty good idea, if their shield is down enough you can shieldpoke at the top corner, and if not then you get to take out even more shield. Doesn't seem like people punish it that often if well spaced either, my guess is that they're not used to seeing people lag fair, idk. Thoughts?

 

[Seagull Joe]

For short characters I do, FH, bair, DJ, Nair, bair.

 

[Vista]

hi wolfies

 

[Seagull Joe]

hi wolfies

Hey Vista. Where you been? I see you go to tourneys in Washington. I know a guy named FLA who attends tourneys there.

 

[Ishiey]

We have the social thread, y'know >_>

Please try to keep this thread on topic.