WITH VID---Boomerang, Arrow Cancel LOCK.

[mackman]

no, no, it's not teching, I'm talking about at the end of the lock, when you're going to up-b or smash or wahtever. i tried to find where it was i saw it, but they said that if the person getting locked tries to do anything too soon, than the game causes them to do a slow get-up. if they wait until the right time, then they have all the possible get-up options.

 

[SuSa]

Oh, I see...

You're not timing the arrow correctly, it should FORCE a getup, even with no input (I noticed this when facing my friend gfx98 recently... I tried to lay there to throw off his second BAL, and my Snake stood up -_- even with my hands off my controller)

When you try to arrow lock / jab lock (or any other 'weak' hit I've noticed....) you have to time it in their 'flop' correctly, otherwise it doesn't lock them.

Get what I'm saying?

 

[mackman]

yeah, i get what you're saying, but i think you're misunderstanding what i'm saying. i'm talking about any type of lock, jab lock, arrow lock, whatever. i found where it was that i saw it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191323&page=13. Blubba_Pinecone said it. Once they stop bouncing, they have all the options to get up that they normally do. It's just that usually they mess up and initiate the slow get-up.

 

[Kiyoo]

What a good find sir, truly used for epic win.

 

[SuSa]

yeah, i get what you're saying, but i think you're misunderstanding what i'm saying. i'm talking about any type of lock, jab lock, arrow lock, whatever. i found where it was that i saw it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191323&page=13. Blubba_Pinecone said it. Once they stop bouncing, they have all the options to get up that they normally do. It's just that usually they mess up and initiate the slow get-up.

Someone's doing it wrong.

I've never -never- in all my times of correctly performing a lock, have had anything but a FORCED GETUP.

THEY DONT TOUCH THE CONTROLLER, and they do the getup animation. So what mistake can they make? What 'buffering' can they do? NONE. I can even -unplug- the controller, and get the same results.


Just letting you know this. Human error, theres you're problem.

 

[mackman]

do they touch the controller at any time after the last time they get hit? i don't know, i'm just going off of what other players have said. If they don't touch the controller at all at any point after the last hit, and they still are forced to do the slow get-up, then you're right. However, a couple of people way more experienced than I am have seen them roll away even though the people locking them presumably did everything right.

Edit: I mean, just do it in training. 9 times out of 10, they will do the slow get up immediately. However, occasionally they wait for a while, and then get up. Trust me, I'm hitting them while they're in the "bouncing" or tumbling animation.

 

[SuSa]

do they touch the controller at any time after the last time they get hit? i don't know, i'm just going off of what other players have said. If they don't touch the controller at all at any point after the last hit, and they still are forced to do the slow get-up, then you're right. However, a couple of people way more experienced than I am have seen them roll away even though the people locking them presumably did everything right.

Edit: I mean, just do it in training. 9 times out of 10, they will do the slow get up immediately. However, occasionally they wait for a while, and then get up. Trust me, I'm hitting them while they're in the "bouncing" or tumbling animation.

You can be off by .2 seconds and have it not luck, FYI.

The stage angel also plays a difference, if it's going upwards, you don't have time to arrow lock. Going down, and they can escape.

Like I said, I can -unplug their controller-, nudge them to the center of FD using Link, then BACL them, and watch them stand up immediatly. Other times, nothing happens even though I could have -sworn- I had timed it right.



Thing to test-

Do STALE ARROWS/JABS cause the "no-lock"? Maybe if the arrow is stale (shoot in 7 times in vs.) then try to BACL, I think it -does- lock, but I may be wrong =p

(considering the BACL isn't like a jab lock.. because you -let- them get up, unlike in a traditional jab lock.)

 

[mackman]

all right... i thought as long as you hit them in the tumbling animation, then it would lock. it certainly looks that way, as they keep bouncing as long as you keep hitting them. i'm in training, so stale moves isn't a factor. I'm on FD, so angle doesn't come into it. Just boomerang to a couple of jabs, and even though it looks the same, sometimes the results are different.
However, it appears you've thought of everything. I didn't realize the margin for error was so small. I apologize for wasting your time and admit my defeat.

 

[SuSa]

.2 seconds was a made up example.

I actually haven't tested the exact physics of a jab lock, nor the timing precisely by -frame- which is all that would matter.


Example of what I need to test-

Unlock - Frame's 0-36 (fake example) of boomerang knockback
Lock - Frame's 37-49 (more fakeness) of boomerang knockback
unlock - frame's 49 to ending (even more fakeness) of boomerang knockback

I'm pretty sure the knockback is faster then 49 frames in the first place =p but I think you can understand what I mean by that testing.

Unfortunately, even if I did any testing, by the time I finished I would probably have had to get off my mom's laptop, and would not be able to post it until I'm ungrounded.

The margin of error may be as large as 2 seconds, or as small as 0.02 seconds ( if it was the latter however, you would very very rarely see any jab lock that lasts more then a single jab or two )


Also, unless you use the several boomerang-induced methods of knocking someone down towards you (I'll be updating my old old topic about this, including some testing of animations that cause this), you can't jab lock them from a boomerang throw, because they do not land close enough to you. You can use an arrow, because it's faster and locks them in near -perfect timing- when you're continuing a BAL/BACL lock, rather then going for a follow-up or jab lock from the second BAL/BACL (as far as I've tested, it is impossible to jab lock from the first BAL/BACL, you must use a second grounded BAL to actually lock them)



EDIT:

Also, you did not waste my time. You brought up several new things I can test, and posted the question that others may not have asked. There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid evidence.

Example of stupid evidence:

"That Samus only lost to your Link because Samus is a bad character" < real comment on one of my vids on youtube.

My reply:

Bad evidence.

1. Samus is higher on the tier list, therefore a 'better' character by your standards (assumption)

2. Samus has many advantages over Link, especially offstage where something as 'worthless' to most Samus mains, can gimp us at basically any %. (down-b)

 

[mackman]

just to clarify, it is possible to jab lock from a boomerang without pulling them towards you, as long as they are close enough to begin with. Legan does it all the time. I do the same, except I pivot-boost to them instead of just walking, so I know I'm at least keeping the lock going. Whether it gets more complicated, I don't know. Example:
Link hits Ganon with a boomerang. Ganon fails to tech.
If Link hits Ganon anywhere within frames 1-100 of the bouncing animation, the bouncing animation will start over (jab lock).
I don't know, however, if there's something more, like...
If Link hits Ganon in frames 35-75 of tumbling, it forces a slow get-up.
If Link hits Ganon in Frames 1-34 or 76-100, it doesn't necessarily force slow get-up.
If that's teh case, then you're probably right. If not, then I don't know.

 

[sasook]

Someone's doing it wrong.

I've never -never- in all my times of correctly performing a lock, have had anything but a FORCED GETUP.

THEY DONT TOUCH THE CONTROLLER, and they do the getup animation. So what mistake can they make? What 'buffering' can they do? NONE. I can even -unplug- the controller, and get the same results.


Just letting you know this. Human error, theres you're problem.

I didn't really read the rest of your/mackman's discussion after this, but I just wanna say, I believe Blubba. Mostly because it's happened to me. What I mean is:

*knocks down opponent*
*jabs to engage floppy motion*
*starts to charge fsmash for punish*
*waits for the opponent to do forced getup while charging*
*watches opponent roll away without getting up as if they had never been jabbed to begin with*

^that.......is quite annoying. lol

So yeah, it's possible, just really hard. 9/10 times, you'll get the charged upb/fsmash/whatever.

 

[SuSa]

just to clarify, it is possible to jab lock from a boomerang without pulling them towards you, as long as they are close enough to begin with. Legan does it all the time. I do the same, except I pivot-boost to them instead of just walking, so I know I'm at least keeping the lock going. Whether it gets more complicated, I don't know. Example:
Link hits Ganon with a boomerang. Ganon fails to tech.
If Link hits Ganon anywhere within frames 1-100 of the bouncing animation, the bouncing animation will start over (jab lock).
I don't know, however, if there's something more, like...
If Link hits Ganon in frames 35-75 of tumbling, it forces a slow get-up.
If Link hits Ganon in Frames 1-34 or 76-100, it doesn't necessarily force slow get-up.
If that's teh case, then you're probably right. If not, then I don't know.

1 problem.

The boomerang knockback is set, so you would have to be a set distance from them to be 'close enough'..... so unless you're in-their-face close, but far enough for it to not pass through them, you won't be able to walk or pivot boost >jab in time to lock them.

I also noticed ftilt can lock (I failed a pivot boost jab, did an ftilt, and he got the forced standup... lol)


Also, like I stated. I need to do frame testing for what frames cause a -forced getup- (LOCK) and which frames don't ("UNLOCK")

I didn't really read the rest of your/mackman's discussion after this, but I just wanna say, I believe Blubba. Mostly because it's happened to me. What I mean is:

*knocks down opponent*
*jabs to engage floppy motion*
*starts to charge fsmash for punish*
*waits for the opponent to do forced getup while charging*
*watches opponent roll away without getting up as if they had never been jabbed to begin with*

^that.......is quite annoying. lol

So yeah, it's possible, just really hard. 9/10 times, you'll get the charged upb/fsmash/whatever.

You're timing for the jab lock was off. If you read our discussion, you would have read that fact.

 

[sasook]

No, no it wasn't a jab lock persay. It was one of those "1 time jab" so that I could force the animation. I understand that if you mess up the timing of the jab lock, it's possible to actually hit the guy back on his feet.

I'll try to get a replay up of what I mean, just gotta find it (I have it somewhere).

 

[SuSa]

You can also hit them on the ground and not have them lock, not just hit them back onto their feet.... you messed up the timing.


(eg; chances are you did it just a few frames too late, I'm almost sure before = they stand on feet, and after = no lock, but they stay grounded as if they were)


Also, whether it was 1 lock or 10 locks, makes little to no difference. You simply timed the first jab wrong.

 

[sasook]

Oh I see. Hmm, that's very possible indeed. I always thought as long as you jabbed them on the ground, they get the forced get up and what not. Didn't know there was a timing to the first one. *shrug*

This is why we need frame data lol

 

[SuSa]

I'm working on the frame data for this, gathering entire frame data is.... -_- boring... to say the least ( I half finished the Snake boards frame data, then gave up on that project. the Smash Researchers (or w/e) are gathering frame data on a lot of things, I can wait for them to gather the 'official' frame data for the stuff... lol)


But no, you can't jab lock them as long as they are on the ground, only during certain frames (of which I am unsure as, it may even be different for each character, hence why some characters are harder to jab lock then others).

 

[mackman]

wait... as long as you hit them in the bouncing animation, then the bouncing animation will start over, causing the jab lock. I thought we were confused about what causes the forced getup. Hitting them while they are bouncing with a jab will always cause them to keep bouncing, but will not always cause them to immediately get up after they finish bouncing. Right?

 

[SuSa]

No, it will not always cause them to bounce again. What you're not realzing is hitting during certain frames of the bounce is what actually locks them.

If you miss those frames, it may not lock, or it may cause them to be in the 'auto standing position'.

A jab -lock- will FORCE a normal get up, no matter what input they use. A MISTIMED jab 'lock' will allow them to do any of their normal get ups, at the time they choose.

 

[Altaz Link]

One of the best technique. I always end up doing a up B after the force get up.

 

[SuSa]

If you have room, its smarted to BAL if they don't tech.

Unless up-B would kill, I go for a DAC or a grab.

 

[sasook]

Havokk, I found that replay I was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwDDSaG4M3M

At 2:04, watch closely. Only my first jab hits (second misses), so I decide to charge an fsmash instead. But he rolls away.

 

[Ich Bin Awesome]

I watched closely.

Do I have to be Havokk to answer?

You hit Luigi too late so you never got the jab lock started. In order to catch him in the jab lock correctly your opponent still needs to be bouncing. Look at the vid and notice how his character already settled before you got him with the jab.

 

[SuSa]

What Ich said.

Even then, it's not exactly when their bouncing, it's only during a certain amount of frames during the 'bounce'.... I still need to get around to testing that, but its a pain because I need to do frame counting for like 1,000 jab locks, and see the latest I was able to get a successful jab lock, and the soonest.... and what frames you can't jab lock on.... etc.... the timings going to be difficult, the task is going to be tedious, the data is going to be pretty useless overall (since you can't exactly count frames...) and the frames may even chance per character <_> in which I'd have to do frame testing for every single character..

Second though, no frame testing....... unless someone wants me to do it on just ONE character to prove my theory of "unlock, lock, unlock"....