Wii U Omega Stage Differences

[The_Jiggernaut]

I literally went through every stage on my own to see how the undersides were and found out in a match that some walls could not be wall jumped and checked those on my own before finding this thread. It didn't even take close to a day to figure this out. What I did not know about was grass traction or flat stage hitboxes. Neither of which are hard to memorize after finding out about it.

Good to know how you found that out. The super-analytical method (still taking several hours, if not an entire day) seems to really work for you, but is it something you'd honestly expect every other player to do? There were still some missed details even then. I agree that the important and choice details aren't hard to memorize after you find out about them, so let's make the "finding out" process as simple as possible.

For my part, I had no idea about some Omegas like Kalos not allowing wall jumps, but I also use Rosalina who can't wall jump in the first place. I've also never noticed grass traction having an impact but I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for there in the first place.

(BTW, does normal Kalos let you wall jump?)

Yeah, I basically only play Jigglypuff (who can' t wall jump) so I would have never found out about the lack of wall jumping in a timely manner. Grass basically messes up AT's like jump canceling and glide tossing. I don't think it messes with basic moves at all.

Why do people not like the original FD?

Sure, there's that really bright transition that makes everything less predictable, but it only happens every once in a while and really testes your reading skills.

I imagine someone big in the smash community got burned by it once and made a strong statement against standard FD. Also, we DO have options to switch to that are more or less identical, so it's not as big of a thing to do if we, say, didn't have Omega stages.

In regards to your last paragraph: This is something I suggested earlier and I have no qualms with it as long as we can still select any Omega stage in the game. Here was suggested Omega stages list for reference:

Omega Stage List (9) - Information

Garden of Hope - Straight walls down to the bottom blast zone
Luigi's Mansion - Indented walls under stage
Bridge of Eldin - Wall is comprised of 2 straight walls above and below a curved guiding lip
Kalos Pokemon League - Guiding lip guides recoveries to ledge
Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Floating stage, Small guiding lip, limited wall jump area
Norfair - Floating stage, guiding lip
Temple - Floating stage, flat wall above narrow guiding lip
Lylat Cruise - Floating stage, no guiding lip, no wall cling/jump
Omega Palutena's - Floating, large guiding lip, wall jump and cling, like FD

I'm good with the list suggested by @ Cornstalk . I'd sort of like to consolidate the list to 5 since I doubt Norfair and Temple (for example) have enough difference in them to change a match. But then again, if they're just suggested, there's no drawback to having as many as there are differences. Might be easier for people to go for it if it's smaller, I guess...

I think this is the best system right now, but it sort of becomes an issue of pull within the community. It's very important to have the stages visible, but some people might not care because they already happen to know. So, does anyone have a suggestion on how to get people to put the Recommended Omegas on our stage lists?

 

[smashbro29]

Here's the system: FD is legal.

Want an omega? Ask your opponent. They say no? Try another or just go to FD.

I say this because FD is the "default omega" and these others are slight variants on it, making them separate gives characters that play well on FD more opportunites to get their stage even if it is ever so slightly different it's the same blastzones and length.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

That doesn't solve the problem of people not knowing what the differences are. Making them separate only has that issue if banning FD doesn't ban all Omegas. If we keep that rule in, stating what Omegas are different and how allows people to ask for Omegas and allows the other person to agree without feeling like they're about to be blindsided.

 

[smashbro29]

That doesn't solve the problem of people not knowing what the differences are. Making them separate only has that issue if banning FD doesn't ban all Omegas. If we keep that rule in, stating what Omegas are different and how allows people to ask for Omegas and allows the other person to agree without feeling like they're about to be blindsided.

FD=Omega, they only come in if they decide on FD.

They are different but they're extremely similar. They can't be their own stages.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

So I take it you've never heard of Lylat Omega? Play a match as Megaman on it and then play one on Final Destination right after. I think you will disagree with the statement that they are all too similar to be their own stages. Especially when Smashville and Town and city are considered different stages.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

While I'm perfectly willing to agree that the various Omegas have small quirks and differences that impact offstage play, I'm not convinced that any of them are enough to warrant separating them into categories except as an academic exercise. Odds are, if someone is picking FD/Omega they're picking it for the lack of platforms first and foremost. The shape of the stage underneath the ledge is secondary and frankly I don't give a toss about whether it's floating or has a wall or a lip or doing the freaking hula.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Town and City and Smashville are considered different stages because they are different stages? lol

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

While I'm perfectly willing to agree that the various Omegas have small quirks and differences that impact offstage play, I'm not convinced that any of them are enough to warrant separating them into categories except as an academic exercise. Odds are, if someone is picking FD/Omega they're picking it for the lack of platforms first and foremost. The shape of the stage underneath the ledge is secondary and frankly I don't give a toss about whether it's floating or has a wall or a lip or doing the freaking hula.

While it's fine to say that you don't care what Omega someone picks against you, I find it weird that you claim that people don't counterpick Omegas for any reason other than the fact that it has no platforms. I'm explicitly saying I counterpick based on more than that, and I know several others who do as well. Like, if there was an Omega Lylat with platforms, I would pick the hell out of that.

What characters do you play? That would give some insight on your stance, I think

Town and City and Smashville are considered different stages because they are different stages? lol

um, yeah. That's kinda my point. Different stages are, in fact, different stages. Therefore, since a stage with walls going all the way to the blastzone, and a stage with no walls at all are, by description, different stages... then they should be considered different stages.

It's super arbitrary to not consider those stages different because of a mere omega label.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

While it's fine to say that you don't care what Omega someone picks against you, I find it weird that you claim that people don't counterpick Omegas for any reason other than the fact that it has no platforms. I'm explicitly saying I counterpick based on more than that, and I know several others who do as well. Like, if there was an Omega Lylat with platforms, I would pick the hell out of that.

What characters do you play? That would give some insight on your stance, I think

Mostly Rosalina, with a side of Shulk, Robin, Peach, and Ness in varying amounts. But mostly Rosalina.

Sorry I missed you saying that, it was super late when I replied and I didn't feel up to reviewing the whole thread.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

No problem. I'm sure I'm pretty late too by now. Good to know who you play. So for an example like Rosalina on stages like Omega Pilot Wings or Omega Lylat, do you not find it difficult to aim at the ledges using your upB? This is less for the sake of the debate and more just something I'd like to know. I did a lot of practice matches against Rosalina today, and I'm fairly interested in playing as her. Is it possible to learn to aim her accurately enough sweetspot even these difficult ledges?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

No problem. I'm sure I'm pretty late too by now. Good to know who you play. So for an example like Rosalina on stages like Omega Pilot Wings or Omega Lylat, do you not find it difficult to aim at the ledges using your upB? This is less for the sake of the debate and more just something I'd like to know. I did a lot of practice matches against Rosalina today, and I'm fairly interested in playing as her. Is it possible to learn to aim her accurately enough sweetspot even these difficult ledges?

My "competitive" experience is mostly For Glory but we're talking recoveries so whatever. To actually answer your question, no, I don't recall any real issues. (Although I mix up sweetspots with long range shots to land onstage, it goes absurdly far if you angle it sideways.)

Instead of trying to talk about angling Launch Star with words, I'll demonstrate with this image of a custom stage I made. P1 spawns in the middle over the little block and if they're Rosalina, they can reach the left ledge of all three platforms simply by using Launch Star from that spot. Top one is a backward angle (be careful not to B-reverse by accident), middle one is without any angling, and the rightmost one is a forward angle.

Spoiler

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

My "competitive" experience is mostly For Glory but we're talking recoveries so whatever. To actually answer your question, no, I don't recall any real issues. (Although I mix up sweetspots with long range shots to land onstage, it goes absurdly far if you angle it sideways.)

Instead of trying to talk about angling Launch Star with words, I'll demonstrate with this image of a custom stage I made. P1 spawns in the middle over the little block and if they're Rosalina, they can reach the left ledge of all three platforms simply by using Launch Star from that spot. Top one is a backward angle (be careful not to B-reverse by accident), middle one is without any angling, and the rightmost one is a forward angle.

Ah, yeah. So her upB is pretty ridiculous. Now since yesterday, I have had vs Rosalina practice and I can confirm that using it onto the stage is a solid option. According to the stage you made, it's really absurd actually. Though if you compare something like FD to a stage with difficult to sweetspot ledges like Omega Lylat, you have the option of aiming at the underside of the stage to recover on FD, along with the options you have on both of sweetspotting the ledge and recovering onstage.

Are you saying that losing the option of recovering lower isn't that important because you have at least two options to mix up?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Ah, yeah. So her upB is pretty ridiculous. Now since yesterday, I have had vs Rosalina practice and I can confirm that using it onto the stage is a solid option. According to the stage you made, it's really absurd actually. Though if you compare something like FD to a stage with difficult to sweetspot ledges like Omega Lylat, you have the option of aiming at the underside of the stage to recover on FD, along with the options you have on both of sweetspotting the ledge and recovering onstage.

Are you saying that losing the option of recovering lower isn't that important because you have at least two options to mix up?

Basically yes. Although it's true that properly sweetspotting the ledge from any given angle is harder on Omega Lylat because its ledges are unbelievably rude, it's also true that Rosalina has a minimum of three different angles to choose from, more if you can reliably use in-between angles. (I can't. I'm also not even certain they exist but I'm assuming they do.) Then there's the onstage option. The net result is that I don't really care about Lylat's ledges beyond the obvious "don't get sloppy."

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Interesting, good to know. I guess my only thought past that is what about characters that don't have a good on-stage recovery and also have to be very precise about the angles of their recoveries? (If any indeed exist) Do you feel this issue is more of a problem for them?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Interesting, good to know. I guess my only thought past that is what about characters that don't have a good on-stage recovery and also have to be very precise about the angles of their recoveries? (If any indeed exist) Do you feel this issue is more of a problem for them?

Characters like Marth come to mind, where their recovery doesn't really sweetspot without precise placement. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of experience with that sort of thing, the closest is Shulk but Jump Monado does a lot to help him out.

Something of note: Due to how they work, Zelda and Palutena (but not Sheik for some reason) can teleport straight up into the underside of Lylat Omega's ledge and can still get nudged over enough to grab it. I think it's due to how the game pushes you along if you teleport into a solid angled surface; the underside is slightly angled but is just missing whatever property lets players smoothly ride it like a wall.

 

[Masonomace]

Ω Kalos Pokemon League finally is able to walljump & wallcling on. So now it is no longer a Rude wall stage.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Xanadu has an all omegas except pyrosphere rule. What's messed up about pyrosphere omega?

 

[EnGarde]

Not sure where is the best place to drop this, but just wanted to share that Omega Castle Seige has a visual obstruction that can be manipulated by wall cling characters. Here is a demonstration video.

 

[Objekshin]

Ω Kalos Pokemon League finally is able to walljump & wallcling on. So now it is no longer a Rude wall stage.

Not sure about that. Last time I was on Kalos, I tried Wall jumping with mario. I ended up looking like a fool because nothing happened.

It might have changed though.

 

[Cornstalk]

Not sure about that. Last time I was on Kalos, I tried Wall jumping with mario. I ended up looking like a fool because nothing happened.

It might have changed though.

Wall jumping & sticking now work on Omega Kalos Pokemon League.

Main topic has been updated with a few corrections/readability changes. Omega DLC stages have also been added.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wall jumping & sticking now work on Omega Kalos Pokemon League.

Main topic has been updated with a few corrections/readability changes. Omega DLC stages have also been added.

Reviewing the OP, Mario Galaxy is technically a floating stage (there's a tiny gap between the bottom and the blast zone) but is simply too big for anyone to make it under and back to the opposite ledge. Some characters like Jigglypuff and Peach can make it under and part of the way back up though.

 

[divade]

Reviewing the OP, Mario Galaxy is technically a floating stage (there's a tiny gap between the bottom and the blast zone) but is simply too big for anyone to make it under and back to the opposite ledge. Some characters like Jigglypuff and Peach can make it under and part of the way back up though.

Villager can easily, it's possible but not practical for bowser jr.
I'd like to see a catagory that shows what stages make lucas, ness an some other characters slide on the wall, and get shot away from the ledge grab section, causing them to SD.
(Edit: i'll start a list)
Peach's castle
mario maker
dreamland
Norfair (more likely than usual in a real match)
Temple (Easily avoidable)
Lylat
Boxing ring (on the weird edge halfway down. this messes with many offstage situations)
"Reverse stairs" have an easily avoided killing slope
more in the future

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Not sure if this is worth posting but the recommended ruleset now has a post on specific omega stages. I'm not sure what that means for xanadu with omega palutena's temple, but if someone wants to counterpick an omega the three options are Suzaku Castle, Wily Castle and Midgar.