Wii U Gamepad and Pro Controllers are glorious! Can replace GameCube controller

[R0Y]

Wiiu only supports one gamepad atm I believe. At least no games allow 2 or more. So I doubt using the gamepad would be most practical for playing at tournaments or friends houses

Yes, unless Smash 4 runs like DKC: TF and the screen is turned off unless in off-TV mode (to save battery and distraction.) Multiple gamepads like that, not receiving a video feed, could be interesting if they decide to implement it and Nintendo lets them, but it'd be purely for tournaments and friends that don't have pro or classic controllers and don't want to use wiimote/nunchuk.

For Smasher attending tournaments a Wii U Pro Controller would probably be best anyway in terms of size and being easier (and cheaper) to replace.

 

[ryuu seika]

You guys really don't "get" fighting games do you?

I guess not.

 

[D-idara]

The human error element is a big factor in fighting games.
You guys really don't "get" fighting games do you?

Human error can also be making a wrong decision, not your finger slipping because the game's designed as a double-fighting game, you've got to fight the controllers while you TRY to fight your opponent. Simplification of game mechanics often leads to a richer, more accessible game...even though I've seen people actually complain about the inputs on SF4 being a little more lenient...do these people just love their little 'elite' so much that they can't stand the game being simplified so people don't have to suffer through training to actually play the game?

That's what I've always loved about Smash, you can just grab the controller and start experimenting and you'll start to do amazing things after playing for a while, no need to check menus a thousand times or play only one character because every other character has a whole different set of weird, confusing commands. Saying that fighting games shouldn't simplify themselves...that's like saying Windows should go back to the MS-DOS interface. Take for example Mortal Kombat 9, that game takes a much-needed step in the right direction, it simplifies most of the special moves and adds a superbar that simplifies the game and gives it a layer of depth AT THE SAME TIME, because the depth depends on how you use your superbar, not if you can use it. As Ryuu said, you can just make attacks have slow startups to compensate for strength.

I've read a bit about buffering, but I think it's ridiculous to make people do the commands while another move is being executed, while also planning ahead their strategy and analyzing the opponent, the game becomes too cluttered and again, only a pompous, self-important 'elite' can enjoy the game...that doesn't sound like much fun for the ones that want to get into the game without any prior experience.

 

[lordvaati]

I hate to be that guy, but...

WHERE WAS THIS TOPIC TWO MONTHS AGO??? Would have taken a chunk out of a hell of a lot of the bickering back then.

 

[NickRiddle]

I've read a bit about buffering, but I think it's ridiculous to make people do the commands while another move is being executed, while also planning ahead their strategy and analyzing the opponent, the game becomes too cluttered and again, only a pompous, self-important 'elite' can enjoy the game...that doesn't sound like much fun for the ones that want to get into the game without any prior experience.

Brawl has buffering.

 

[Knight Dude]

I can't really say for sure which is truly better than the other. But I'm sure that they can both get the job done. The Gamecube controller is still one of my favorites to play any game on. Same for the PS2 controller. But I'm sure the Pro Controller is good enough on it's own. And to be honest, I'd be a little more exited to play on a different type of controller anyway.

 

[smashbro29]

Human error can also be making a wrong decision, not your finger slipping because the game's designed as a double-fighting game, you've got to fight the controllers while you TRY to fight your opponent. Simplification of game mechanics often leads to a richer, more accessible game...even though I've seen people actually complain about the inputs on SF4 being a little more lenient...do these people just love their little 'elite' so much that they can't stand the game being simplified so people don't have to suffer through training to actually play the game?

That's what I've always loved about Smash, you can just grab the controller and start experimenting and you'll start to do amazing things after playing for a while, no need to check menus a thousand times or play only one character because every other character has a whole different set of weird, confusing commands. Saying that fighting games shouldn't simplify themselves...that's like saying Windows should go back to the MS-DOS interface. Take for example Mortal Kombat 9, that game takes a much-needed step in the right direction, it simplifies most of the special moves and adds a superbar that simplifies the game and gives it a layer of depth AT THE SAME TIME, because the depth depends on how you use your superbar, not if you can use it. As Ryuu said, you can just make attacks have slow startups to compensate for strength.

I've read a bit about buffering, but I think it's ridiculous to make people do the commands while another move is being executed, while also planning ahead their strategy and analyzing the opponent, the game becomes too cluttered and again, only a pompous, self-important 'elite' can enjoy the game...that doesn't sound like much fun for the ones that want to get into the game without any prior experience.

I'm not gonna derail it further but you really really don't understand fighting games.

On topic: New controllers are better for most popular game types not so much Smash, especially the left analog not even close to how good it was on Gamecube.

 

[D-idara]

I'm not gonna derail it further but you really really don't understand fighting games.

On topic: New controllers are better for most popular game types not so much Smash, especially the left analog not even close to how good it was on Gamecube.

Yes, I don't understand etilists.

And that's subjective.

 

[smashbro29]

Yes, I don't understand etilists.

And that's subjective.

I'm not great at fighting games by the way.

No it isn't the gamecube has a bigger stick with a gate that locks into the directions actually used by smash.

 

[ryuu seika]

Brawl has buffering.

I know. It doesn't really help things.
If you can't perform a move immediately, it simply adds another commitment to the chain that's already preventing you from reacting to your opponent.

I can see how, in a game like SF where the entry time often forces a chess like mindset, buffering might be beneficial since you get to execute your next move quicker. In a game like Smash, however, where you would otherwise have time to react to attacks more readily, it seems detrimental. It requires thinking ahead, locks you into an attack that can easily turn out to be sub optimal due to the play speed and can be pulled off accidentally if you fail to cancel a move.

And that's subjective.

To a degree, yes, it is. However, do bear in mind that the C-stick was never meant to be the shortcut key many Nintendo games used it as. It was meant to be a camera control. In most cases, a quick, poorly controlled flick is not what one wants from a camera. As such, increasing head radius and with it grip seems like a logical step, even if it doesn't seem so ideal for us.
The placement, I don't really see any advantage to but that's probably just me.

 

[Erimir]

You guys really don't "get" fighting games do you?

Different people are better at different things. My fingers aren't fast enough for some fighting games.

I would appreciate a way to play that didn't rely on complicated inputs like that, and that's part of the reason why I love Smash, but most other fighting games are casual diversions at best.

I like to play Magic: The Gathering. If you're playing in real life, you have to keep track of a lot of things on the board, and sometimes do a lot of math to determine the best play. This is not a problem for me, but it is for some people. I do not begrudge the fact that when you play online, the computer keeps track of all that stuff for you and the focus is more purely on strategy and less about keeping track of the game state. I do appreciate that when I play in real life, I sometimes get an advantage over other players because they forget something that I remembered, but I'm not going to complain about how the computer is coddling them and I don't get those little advantages when I play online or say that they don't get the game.

If the core of the modern Street Fighter games is about sequences of inputs, then as far as I'm concerned it might as well be Dance Dance Revolution for your fingers. Which is fine if you like that, but it doesn't make me a baby if that's too hard for me (I'm guessing most people simply don't have fingers capable of playing like high-level SF players) and I'd rather play a game where the focus is on other aspects of the game. And I would appreciate being able to play without needing to perform those complicated inputs.

From my perspective, those inputs are like doing loads of arithmetic are for some Magic players. Things that prevent them from enjoying the game, rather than the point of the game.

 

[smashbro29]

Different people are better at different things. My fingers aren't fast enough for some fighting games.

I would appreciate a way to play that didn't rely on complicated inputs like that, and that's part of the reason why I love Smash, but most other fighting games are casual diversions at best.

I like to play Magic: The Gathering. If you're playing in real life, you have to keep track of a lot of things on the board, and sometimes do a lot of math to determine the best play. This is not a problem for me, but it is for some people. I do not begrudge the fact that when you play online, the computer keeps track of all that stuff for you and the focus is more purely on strategy and less about keeping track of the game state. I do appreciate that when I play in real life, I sometimes get an advantage over other players because they forget something that I remembered, but I'm not going to complain about how the computer is coddling them and I don't get those little advantages when I play online or say that they don't get the game.

If the core of the modern Street Fighter games is about sequences of inputs, then as far as I'm concerned it might as well be Dance Dance Revolution for your fingers. Which is fine if you like that, but it doesn't make me a baby if that's too hard for me (I'm guessing most people simply don't have fingers capable of playing like high-level SF players) and I'd rather play a game where the focus is on other aspects of the game. And I would appreciate being able to play without needing to perform those complicated inputs.

From my perspective, those inputs are like doing loads of arithmetic are for some Magic players. Things that prevent them from enjoying the game, rather than the point of the game.

I get where you're coming from with 1f links and that kinda thing.

He's complaining about QCF. That is basic.

 

[NickRiddle]

I know. It doesn't really help things.
If you can't perform a move immediately, it simply adds another commitment to the chain that's already preventing you from reacting to your opponent.

Or, you know, it allows you to input a followup or an option frame-perfectly out of a dodge, another attack, or shield pressure.
But, you're right, all of those things are bad.

 

[D-idara]

Implying that Fighting games shouldn't change to be more accessible.

 

[D-idara]

Double Post

 

[josh bones]

Fighting games have fighting in them. I understand

 

[DakotaBonez]

Analog triggers felt amazing, but seriously in a fighting game I'd prefer the digital triggers featured on the gamepad, also the 2nd Z button that the GCC lacked is a nice addition.

 

[JediLink]

Implying that Fighting games shouldn't change to be more accessible.

You know what you sound like?

"Riding a bicycle is too hard. It needs to be more accessible. Look at tricycles for example. They have three wheels, so you don't need to practice to ride them. That's how it should be. People who ride bikes are just stupid elitist pricks."

 

[gramkracka22]

You know what you sound like?

"Riding a bicycle is too hard. It needs to be more accessible. Look at tricycles for example. They have three wheels, so you don't need to practice to ride them. That's how it should be. People who ride bikes are just stupid elitist pricks."

This is the kind of stupid stuff d-iadra posts all the time. He thinks project m is insulting to brawl, has no right to be played at tournies, thinks we are elitists who can't move on from melee, believes everyone should play brawl, etc.

Definitely the cancer of this sub

 

[lordvaati]

Implying that Fighting games shouldn't change to be more accessible.

(s)he kinda has a point here, SF4 and MvC3 were respectively changed to be more accessible then their prior games, and Blazblue was pretty much made as a (kinda) easier version of Guilty Gear.

At the same time however while they were more approachable they also were still deep enough to attract a competitive audience as well. And if SSB4 came do that, I see no issue.

 

[Deap]

The Controller Pro is great for games in general but i would like to try it on smash first and then give my review about it before saying that this controller is good for smash.

 

[D-idara]

Smash 4 should do what Mortal Kombat 9 did, add depth while keeping things as simple as humanly possible. And no, riding a bycicle isn't that hard, using the Shoryuken command in the heat of battle is.

 

[CRASHiC]

(s)he kinda has a point here, SF4 and MvC3 were respectively changed to be more accessible then their prior games, and Blazblue was pretty much made as a (kinda) easier version of Guilty Gear.

At the same time however while they were more approachable they also were still deep enough to attract a competitive audience as well. And if SSB4 came do that, I see no issue.

Blazblue failed to garner over 200 entries for an international tournament. Even Mortal Kombat, who does not have a scene outside of America, easily got over 500+.

Blazblue was a failure to everyone outside of the anime community.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

Again, this is easily avoidable if you just take the correct precautions. Otherwise, there would be a lot more plane crashes in this world.



People discuss all kinds of things here. It's not all about the tournament scene. Yes, it's certainly a big part of it, and Smashboards is probably the best site for that, but it's not it's sole purpose. Much like how competitive play is not the sole purpose of Smash Bros. I'm sure may people who don't have a Wii U are mostly concerned about how the console and it's controllers will be for ANY game they may play. I'm pretty sure most people who want a Wii U are not going to buy it SOLELY for Smash, especially since a 3DS version exists.



Rayman Legends isn't the same pace as Smash. It's a whole lot faster. Rayman Legends is a speedrun-focused game. Smash Bros is a fighting game.

Also, get to at least 5,000 metres in a "As far as you can!" challenge in The Land of the Livid Dead or the Infinite Tower in Rayman Legends', and then talk to me about how you "doubt" it's as fast as Smash. :V



Whether or not you think they are bad is irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that wired controllers are a dying breed, and the Wii U is not likely to support them (and currently does not), even for the sake of Smash. If you want to play this game at non-online tournaments, you're going to have to get used to using a wireless controller. There is no compromise for it, and compromises don't even need to be made, because the Wii U controllers work fine.

Your logic is flawed all planes use different frequencies only towers maintain a certain frequency. Planes don't crash because they're all on different "channels". Game controllers are all on almost identical channels (their synch frequencies are usually the same) it wouldn't be the end of the world but it would be annoying if you had 50+ players with all their controllers synched to 4 consoles (any random jostling in someones bag could lead to a random person joining and the game pausing )

As for rain man origins you're drunk... in the main levels of the game it's a giant pattern which is in no way similar to a fighting games reactive nature.

And even on specs incredibly superior to any console, like a 144hz monitor and a 1200+ polling rate with 1600+ dpi players still notice input lag (specifically in tribes, quake, and CS:GO and Sc2)

 

[NickRiddle]

Smash 4 should do what Mortal Kombat 9 did, add depth while keeping things as simple as humanly possible. And no, riding a bycicle isn't that hard, using the Shoryuken command in the heat of battle is.

Nothing should require practice ever. Everything should be easy, so that way only "true skill" shines through in a competition.

QQ for days.

 

[ChikoLad]

Your logic is flawed all planes use different frequencies only towers maintain a certain frequency. Planes don't crash because they're all on different "channels". Game controllers are all on almost identical channels (their synch frequencies are usually the same) it wouldn't be the end of the world but it would be annoying if you had 50+ players with all their controllers synched to 4 consoles (any random jostling in someones bag could lead to a random person joining and the game pausing )

You completely misunderstood why I brought that up. You know how everyone is asked to put their electronic devices on flight mode when they get on a plane, or keep them off? Just do the same for Smash tournaments. It's not that hard to put a sign up in the room the game is played in or whatever.
And random jostling does not connect the controllers, you actually have to sync them before they can connect.
And an easy fix is to just have controllers provided by the hosts. I know this can't work in every instance, but it could definitely work in most.

As for rain man origins you're drunk... in the main levels of the game it's a giant pattern which is in no way similar to a fighting games reactive nature.

It think you're the drunk one. I've never heard of "rain man origins". Is that a Mega Man spin-off starring a robot master named "Rain Man"? :V
I was referring to the online challenges in Rayman Legends. There is a legit competitive scene for that, as these challenges are randomly generated, and are a true speedrunners test in skill. I competed in a tournament called "Rayman Legends Showdown" over on BeyondGaming, that was sponsored by Ubisoft, and won a prize in it. That prize was an Astro Gaming A30 headset, which costs about $200 to buy. And even if something IS a memory game, it still needs precision control if the timing is strict, which Wii U controllers provide. This is the case with Rayman Legends, it requires insane precision and reflexes to play competitively. There is a degree of practice involved, but there is also a degree of practice involved in fighters.

And even on specs incredibly superior to any console, like a 144hz monitor and a 1200+ polling rate with 1600+ dpi players still notice input lag (specifically in tribes, quake, and CS:GO and Sc2)

Shooters tend to intentionally have some input lag because in real life, pixel perfect, twitchy reactions don't happen, no matter how good you are with handling a firearm, and because most shooters DO have some sense of realism in their movement and mechanics, they are not comparable to fighters and implement some slight input delay intentionally, which usually aren't overly realistic (and Smash certainly isn't). Don't even try to compare shooters to fighters, they are completely different things by their design.

 

[CRASHiC]

Nothing should require practice ever. Everything should be easy, so that way only "true skill" shines through in a competition.

QQ for days.

You say it ironically, but the most skilled players in the world who went on to be successful designers also said the same thing, including Mike Z and David Sirlin.

Technical skill doesn't win you games. Decision making does. Technical skills only serves as a "are you tall enough to ride" door man.

 

[Zonderion]

And an easy fix is to just have controllers provided by the hosts. I know this can't work in every instance, but it could definitely work in most.

Would you be willing to put up $500 for 10 controllers only to have them stolen? If so, I nominate you to be the supplier to all of my tournaments!

 

[ChikoLad]

I already stated that it wouldn't work for all tournaments. But it could work for many, specifically the biggest and smallest ones. It would work for smaller tournaments because I'm sure the organisers would naturally own Wii U's, and could just bring their own controllers (keeping in mind Wii remotes and Classic Controllers and Nunchucks still work), and they'd of course have the common sense to not let controllers out of their sight, if they owned them. It could work for the big tournaments because they'd have the money prepared for organisation. They will have to, anyway. Or else Smash 4 will have to stick to online tournaments.

As for stuff getting stolen, there is a thing called security. If all eyes are on a player, I'm pretty sure they'd have a hard time running off with a controller.

At least I'm making suggestions rather than whining about how I can't use GameCube controllers, like many other people on the internet. Because whining about the fact isn't going to change the fact you will HAVE to use wireless controllers on Smash Wii U, so if you want offline tournaments, you will have to take whatever precautions are necessary to maximise the enjoyment players have. It's going to take some time to make the shift, but there is going to have to be adjustments made for Smash Wii U tournaments, if people really want to organise them. They can't work the same way as Melee and Brawl tournaments. Tournament organisers should be adaptive enough to take initiative and make the necessary changes.

 

[Renji64]

Fighting games are more than acessible smash is the easiest one to pick up of all time if you are having issues get gud scrub.
But People are planning to use the gamepad for smash? I wouldn't do that those things aren't sold in stores yet.

If there isn't some gc type new controller made by smash's release this is the only option i got.

 

[PadWarrior]

Fighting games are more than acessible smash is the easiest one to pick up of all time if you are having issues get gud scrub.
But People are planning to use the gamepad for smash? I wouldn't do that those things aren't sold in stores yet.

If there isn't some gc type new controller made by smash's release this is the only option i got.

3rd party products tend to be cheaply made. I've had some bad experience over my gaming life.

 

[Renji64]

3rd party products tend to be cheaply made. I've had some bad experience over my gaming life.

It has pretty good reviews yeah i had my issues but i don't want the analog stick at the top for smash this the closes layout to the gc i can get for WiiU.

 

[PadWarrior]

like the controller, but the d-pad is unresponsive and hard to press. Also the shoulder buttons feel like they're about to break. All in all I would recommend the light up WiiU controller. More responsive buttons. and a bit cheaper

Review taken from Gamestop's page about that controller
http://www.gamestop.com/wii-u/accessories/wii-u-pro-commander/107991

 

[Pazzo.]

Hey, I agree bro! I'm sold on the new controllers. I'm having a hard time going back to the GC controller as well!

 

[NickRiddle]

You say it ironically, but the most skilled players in the world who went on to be successful designers also said the same thing, including Mike Z and David Sirlin.

Technical skill doesn't win you games. Decision making does. Technical skills only serves as a "are you tall enough to ride" door man.

And that's why Dive Kick is the most popular, and undisputed best fighting game.

 

[CRASHiC]

And that's why Dive Kick is the most popular, and undisputed best fighting game.

Yet when we look at how technically difficult a game is to its long term success and popularity, we find absolutely no correlation. Of the 2nd wave of fighting games (Blazblu, SFIV, MvC3, KoFromannumerals) the most technically skilled one was the least successful both in short term and long term international play (Blazblu).

What players value is a game that offers a wealth of decision making opportunities. Dive Kick offers a very binary experience, not just because of the single move on characters, but because the game's one hit = loss devalues constant good decision making and instead places too much value on a single decision.

 

[NickRiddle]

So, games should have a lot of options, but they should all be single button presses with an optional directional input?

Time to play Naruto games.

 

[CRASHiC]

As someone who has played tournaments for those games, those have inherent issues of their own design.

You can continue to equate a game's value towards arbitrary identifiers, but it really doesn't accomplish anything other than muddle your point.

 

[smashbro29]

Fighting games are more than acessible smash is the easiest one to pick up of all time if you are having issues get gud scrub.
But People are planning to use the gamepad for smash? I wouldn't do that those things aren't sold in stores yet.

If there isn't some gc type new controller made by smash's release this is the only option i got.

I'm sure gamespot or whatever site says it's great because they play QTE The Game all the time but thing doesn't look like it could take serious Smash play.

Yet when we look at how technically difficult a game is to its long term success and popularity, we find absolutely no correlation. Of the 2nd wave of fighting games (Blazblu, SFIV, MvC3, KoFromannumerals) the most technically skilled one was the least successful both in short term and long term international play (Blazblu).

What players value is a game that offers a wealth of decision making opportunities. Dive Kick offers a very binary experience, not just because of the single move on characters, but because the game's one hit = loss devalues constant good decision making and instead places too much value on a single decision.

There are so many other factors in the totem pole of fighting game popularity, this is totally invalid.

 

[Less]

My main issue with the Wii U Pro Controller is just where ABXY is located. It might just be because I have generally small hands but I have to hold the controller in such an awkward fashion in order to hit them.

Also, I think most people used the c-stick on the GC controller which I, due to small hands, generally never used. It's like ingrained in my mind now the feeling of hitting direction+a rather than c-sticking. I own it and have tried to use it for many games but it only feels good when I don't have to use ABXY at all.