Wii Fit Trainer changes in Ulimate so far

[its_luis_not_louis]

https://twitter.com/captain_yoko/status/1059389329959612416?s=21

I found some good 1-on-1 gameplay with Wii Fit Trainer against Falcon. Sun Salutation does a whopping 26.4% without deep breathing!

 

[its_luis_not_louis]

Also, is there any data out there on possible changes with n-air? It looks faster to me however I'm unable to find anyone who has specific numbers.

 

[Alsyght]

Yeah, it looked faster to me too, but it could just be cause the game is faster as well.

Does her Header not spike anymore? It looks like Falcon should’ve died those couple times.

 

[RichWalk9891]

Yeah, it looked faster to me too, but it could just be cause the game is faster as well.

Does her Header not spike anymore? It looks like Falcon should’ve died those couple times.

I'm pretty sure the Header still spikes, since Vis' Twitter comments that he 'feels like side b spike has more knockback'.

It's probably because WFT timed the Header wrong against Captain Falcon.

 

[its_luis_not_louis]

I found the full fight here and in much better quality!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJRSdKE4Ntk

I feel like this player was pretty decent, however, it seemed like they lacked essential Wii Fit knowledge to really exploit the character. Deep breathing was way underused and a slightly more patient play with Sun Salutation/spacing would have probably been better in the long run. But he was very close to winning!

 

[RichWalk9891]

@MakuSmash have listed out a few more details on WFT's Frame Data. Apologies if a few have already been listed on this topic:

FTilt comes out at frame 5 - 6 but last at least to frame 10, FAF 33 -> 22
UTilt startup frame 3 - 5
Jab 2 startup 3
Jab 3 startup 7 -> 5
Ftilt startup 10 -> 9
Sun Salutation startup 24 -> 17 FAF 57 -> 40
DAir startup 21 -> 12 FAF 20 -> 10
SoccerBall size 1 -> 1.5x
DB | Sun Salutation healing -> 2% (unchanged)
Nair startup 9 -> 6, FAF 35 -> 6
Dash grab frame 8
Header startup 16 -> 13
Dsmash startup 18 -> 14
Bair startup 5 -> 4
Fsmash startup 16 -> 13
Fair startup 9 -> 8
Uair startup 6 -> 5

Based on what I am seeing, WFT is slightly quicker with almost all of her attacks, most notably her DAir. Her FAF also starts sooner on some of her attacks as well, which basically means how soon WFT can cancel the whole animation of an attack and executed another move immediately afterwards, if I'm correct.

 

[Luxent]

Analyze you hearts out, kiddos.

A free-for-all match with 4 wii-fit trainers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCEDQqMzC9E

 

[Luxent]

Footage of FOUR wii-fit trainers in a single match.
Happy analyzing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCEDQqMzC9E

 

[RichWalk9891]

Cheers Luxent for the 4 WFT player video!

What I've noticed so far with WFT changes:

- The Back Throw's new ending animation can still be interrupted with a new move, such as a Shield
- Up Smash's tipper seems to have it's damage slighty increased from 18% to 20% if I'm not mistaken
- Up Smash has more horizontal range (FINALLY!)
- UTilt's hitbox is definitely bigger

 

[Xebenkeck]

I heard M2K mention in his stream that one change was that jab two cant put a grounded opponent in the air anymore there fore the grounding effect of jab3 is consisntent if you jab someone who is initially on the ground.

Is this actually confirmed? If it is that is wonderful

 

[RichWalk9891]

I heard M2K mention in his stream that one change was that jab two cant put a grounded opponent in the air anymore there fore the grounding effect of jab3 is consisntent if you jab someone who is initially on the ground.

Is this actually confirmed? If it is that is wonderful

I'm pretty confident that this is correct, WFT can now consistently ground opponents with her jab combo.

 

[its_luis_not_louis]

So, with very few top players actually being able to give a solid opinion on Wii Fit Trainer due to their lack of familiarity with the character, where do you guys think Wii Fit will end up in the Smash Ultimate meta? I really hope the character doesn't end up dismissed again due to obscurity since I see so much new potential there with all of these 'quality of life' improvements. I feel like people have been sleeping on the character and maybe it's me being biased and overly optimistic, but I think Wii Fit can be an overall solid character in the long run if enough work is put into them. However, so little attention is being given to Wii Fit at the moment that I fear the same thing will happen where they just fall through the cracks in the meta.

I guess another good question would be to ask what could be improved more? Some of the things on my buff wish list include things like a better grab game (although the low knockback of up throw is a decent buff), tilts that come out slightly faster (like f-tilt and down tilt), and more range on those tilts. I think deep breathing still deserved a bigger time buff, lasting at least 13-15 seconds or so since it's generally more difficult to approach with Wii Fit in the first place to do damage.

Wii Fit's fate seems nebulous at the moment, but perhaps with some good players, they can finally shine.

 

[RichWalk9891]

I found the following info in the Landing Lag/Generalized Frame Data, which contains more info on WFT:

'She can still stop momentum with deep breathing, she can still intentionally drop her ball. She can still crawl. First hit nair sets up into true combos for other aerials well into the hundreds% . Downthrow true combos into certain aerials until about 100%. She is quite fast, also boost grabbing is still in the game so that helps her a little.'

The frame data for her aerial attacks and jump heights seems official too:

Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 8 frames
Bair: 12 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3.7 stage units
Shorthop height: 2 stage units

 

[Ulk]

I'm honestly not too optimistic about Wii Fit in Ultimate even though it's of course too soon to tell. The buffs she received were buffs she should have already received in Smash 4 to allow her to keep up with the rest of the roster. While she got a lot of buffs, especially in the speed department, so did almost everyone else. This will help her keep up with the increased pace of the game, but I cannot see this being enough to keep up with the new and far more powerful roster. I see nothing that really helps her keep up with the buffs most of the other low tiers received, so I think she's sadly going to remain where she is, if not drop even lower.

 

[jwillenn]

I am going to clean up with my own footage. Most of my observations regarding Header Cancel Followups ("Ball Tricks" for short) based on pre-release footage were right, but now that the game is out, I just want to make sure I have my videos to go along with whatever I find and talk about. I'll keep these in one post.

 

[RichWalk9891]

I'm honestly not too optimistic about Wii Fit in Ultimate even though it's of course too soon to tell. The buffs she received were buffs she should have already received in Smash 4 to allow her to keep up with the rest of the roster. While she got a lot of buffs, especially in the speed department, so did almost everyone else. This will help her keep up with the increased pace of the game, but I cannot see this being enough to keep up with the new and far more powerful roster. I see nothing that really helps her keep up with the buffs most of the other low tiers received, so I think she's sadly going to remain where she is, if not drop even lower.

It's still early days to tell just how viable WFT is, and I imagine that there will be re-balance patches once Ultimate is released.

We can all hope that WFT's problems will be addressed soon enough if WFT still struggles against the rest of the cast.

 

[Luxent]

I think wii fit trainer just has a losing moveset tbh.

Dont get me wrong, I ~love~ her.
I feel like when developing her, they were so stuck on making every attack a yoga pose they forgot about competitive viability.
I think her stats are nice. (Speed, Height, Weight, Recovery), and her specials are pretty great.

I wish they used more of WiiFit's minigames into her move set or something to give her some spice.

Hell, have her smack someone with a wii fit balance board or something too.

 

[Ulk]

It's still early days to tell just how viable WFT is, and I imagine that there will be re-balance patches once Ultimate is released.

We can all hope that WFT's problems will be addressed soon enough if WFT still struggles against the rest of the cast.

It is indeed too soon to tell, but honestly it's looking really bad. She really got the short end of the stick with the buffs. Pit' buffs for example were far more generous, and he's just one of so many characters that got a much more planned out buff kit than Wii Fit did despite being a lot more viable to begin with. On top of that comes that even most of the few characters that stood beneath her got a much better treatment as well.
Of course, she didn't get as bad as a treatment as, say, Bowser Jr.. But I just really see nothing that would help her not stay behind as everyone else moves forward. And with how few low tiers Smash 4 fixed with patches, it's a matter of having a ton of luck.

 

[RichWalk9891]

It is indeed too soon to tell, but honestly it's looking really bad. She really got the short end of the stick with the buffs. Pit' buffs for example were far more generous, and he's just one of so many characters that got a much more planned out buff kit than Wii Fit did despite being a lot more viable to begin with. On top of that comes that even most of the few characters that stood beneath her got a much better treatment as well.
Of course, she didn't get as bad as a treatment as, say, Bowser Jr.. But I just really see nothing that would help her not stay behind as everyone else moves forward. And with how few low tiers Smash 4 fixed with patches, it's a matter of having a ton of luck.

Regardless, I'll still play as WFT considering that she is my main. It's sad to see that she's likely not any better in Ultimate than she was in WiiU/3DS, but at least she isn't a buggy mess of a character.

As for tools that could help her, I wonder if you have any suggestions to make WFT more viable?

 

[Luxent]

As for tools that could help her, I wonder if you have any suggestions to make WFT more viable?

Her specials are fine, with the exception of Deep Breathing. Its too long/situational and doesnt have that great of an effect tbh. It should be buffed. Recover more % OR increase knockback.

TBH, isolate her from her gimmick of making every attack a yoga pose. All of attacks are just a one-hit, short range attack that limit her movement.

- Give her range.
- Make hitboxes last.
- Have some attacks be multi-hit.
- Have some attacks move her around. (Like Megaman/Cloud D-tilt).

I find her so stale as a fighter, and many deem her "incomplete"... and I think this is why. Her moves are just one hit. Dont really link into one another, and they arent very dynamic.

 

[RichWalk9891]

Her specials are fine, with the exception of Deep Breathing. Its too long/situational and doesnt have that great of an effect tbh. It should be buffed. Recover more % OR increase knockback.

TBH, isolate her from her gimmick of making every attack a yoga pose. All of attacks are just a one-hit, short range attack that limit her movement.

- Give her range.
- Make hitboxes last.
- Have some attacks be multi-hit.
- Have some attacks move her around. (Like Megaman/Cloud D-tilt).

I find her so stale as a fighter, and many deem her "incomplete"... and I think this is why. Her moves are just one hit. Dont really link into one another, and they arent very dynamic.

Wouldn't it be better if she did another yoga pose immediately when using certain attacks to create a combo of sorts, which also allows her to quickly move closer to her opponent?

For instance...
A+A+UP A will create Jab 1, Jab 2, and UpTilt
A+A+DOWN A will create Jab 1, Jab 2, and DTilt
Down+A+A will create DTilt, and Ledge Attack
Forward+A+A will create FTilt, and Dash Attack
Up+A+A will create UTilt and UAir

I know she would still be using her yoga pose gimmicks, but I imagine that this would be a boon to her offence if this was implemented.

 

[TAPZsf]

From AceStarThe3rd

"When Wii Fit Trainer activates Deep Breathing, she gets a roughly 25% damage increase, walks faster, runs a LOT faster, AND her fall speed increases! This effect lasts for 10 seconds! If you cancel Deep Breathing during the... breathing, the penalty is hardly even noticeable!"

From the pics in the tweet, WFT's up smash and up tilt hit boxes have been increased a great deal.

https://twitter.com/AceStarThe3rd/status/1070185882571997184

 

[Erimir]

That u-tilt hitbox. https://twitter.com/AceStarThe3rd/status/1070193416896696320

Also huge buff to male WFT's butt. Almost makes up for Snake's new pancake ass.

 

[sam☆jam]

That u-tilt hitbox. https://twitter.com/AceStarThe3rd/status/1070193416896696320

Also huge buff to male WFT's butt. Almost makes up for Snake's new pancake ***.

View attachment 181633

Love it. Looks like her face isn’t the only part that got buffed.

Does anybody know if Deep Breathing still cancels itself if you use the move a second time while the buff is active? I guess i could just check tomorrow night but been curious

 

[TAPZsf]

Wii Fit vs Ryu gameplay for you guys to analyze.

https://youtu.be/VX0Pk9QLRJ0

I don’t want to sound like that guy, but it looks like her forward smash comes out faster with better range.

 

[jwillenn]

1/8/2019 Insert

This is something from week 1 I've wanted to talk about, but have put off. Back then, it had this "what the" effect on me. Well, it is a beautiful buff that we should understand well enough to intentionally execute sequences that involve it. Call it extended activity, or active frames refreshing, or whatever! It's all ball love, baby!

__________________________________________________________

Okay! I'll keep Header Cancels with emphasis on noticeable changes here. I'm not going to go too long with this one, but maybe I'll edit later to add other stuff.

Down Tilt doesn't send ball behind, but in front... consistently. Side Tilt sends ball in direction faced upon kick. Jab 2 (knee) doesn't send ball up to the maximum height as in 4. It's a lower trajectory throughout. Jab 1 option is different. I mentioned this in the other post based on pre-release footage, but reviewed that same footage and retracted. I shouldn't have, because I was correct in the original post.

I used to love chasing down ball off jab 1 to extend with something like BAIR, but that's not possible now. No worries. New stuff to work with.

Up Tilt sends ball opposite direction of faced, though there is a small range (?) of points you can land off cancel to get the old effect.

(here you can see example of up tilt extension)

Headbutt can't be done before ball touches the ground.

Much like wanting to get ball to move in direction you're facing with up tilt, this is something else you'll need to be extra precise with...

But don't worry, claps (as I like to call nair) can still bring ball and opponent together for kissing like in Smash 4!

Overall I am excited and grateful for the changes!

 

[its_luis_not_louis]

Hey y’all! I’m happy that Ultimate Wii Fit is now out and ready to play around with. Some things that I noticed in my initial play was that n-air -> n-air -> up air seemed harder to execute, and was kind of disappointed, however I found some really amazing combo potential with up-tilt because of the new gigantic hitbox.

N-air -> up tilt -> uptilt -> up air (?) (62% with deep breathing!)

Back hit of up tilt -> back air (?)

N-air -> up tilt -> up tilt -> n-air (?) -> up air (maybe???)

For higher percents, n-air to up air seems more practical to use rather than going for n-air -> n-air up air which seems trickier to pull off.

I also found out that you no longer actually have to wait for your opponent to pop out of the ground to hit up smash! Up smash now has new hitboxes that seem to cover the entire length of Wii Fit and some of their sides, so when your opponent is buried at a high percent, you can dash into up smash and kill them without having to guess when they will pop out of the ground.

I also found Wii Fit’s back air to be particularly amazing for spacing and is hardly ever punished.

Up throw at lower percents leads directly into up air and possibly other moves too.

Soccer ball tricks still need to be tested, however, the header itself on stage is essentially lagless and much safer to do on stage.

 

[Erimir]

I guess we'll see once someone analyzes the data for her, and maybe it's placebo, but it seems to me that dash attack is a lot stronger. I'm pretty sure I've gotten a couple of KOs with it, and in Smash 4 I'm pretty sure that would only happen at 200+%...

Also am I doing something wrong, or is it not possible anymore to dash, turnaround and hit with the back of f-tilt anymore?

 

[jwillenn]

It still works, erimir. You'll have less issues executing with C for tilts. If you're using the jab button, there's chance for error such as turning around and hitting with the back side of jab or maybe even getting a smash attack.

 

[Erimir]

I kept getting smash attacks, so I guess I just need to practice a little bit to figure out the right input. I typically use smash-stick so getting used to tilt-stick might be more of a pain, but I suppose it might be worth it to switch, if smashing with A is easy enough...

 

[jwillenn]

Did you all know hoops can hit 3 times? I made a video.

And wow at jab!

 

[Teeb147]

Hey. I'm enjoying wiifit. Seems buffed all around.
Anyone know good approaches? I've been using nair and trying for rar back air, but wondering what else is good.

 

[GoodShepperd]

question about side B, I didn't play a lot of WFT in smash 4 so apologies if this is a silly question. When I use side B, if I hit B again right after starting it, I do a quicker headbutt and the ball comes out at a more horizontal angle. Is the 13 frame startup for her quick header or regular header?

 

[Luxent]

question about side B, I didn't play a lot of WFT in smash 4 so apologies if this is a silly question. When I use side B, if I hit B again right after starting it, I do a quicker headbutt and the ball comes out at a more horizontal angle. Is the 13 frame startup for her quick header or regular header?

I think the startup is about the same tbh.

Its like charging a projectile (without damage increase lol), you just choose when you want to let it go.

 

[GoodShepperd]

I think the startup is about the same tbh.

Its like charging a projectile (without damage increase lol), you just choose when you want to let it go.

The headbutt definitely comes out faster if you quickly tap B an extra time.

I can't record gameplay but at least in training mode you can combo fast fall neutral air into quick side B. Around 60 on Marth in training mode I was able to get both hits of neutral into one or both hits of side B, and some times getting the spike hit box. Even without the spike it's a solid 44 damage

Could somebody

 

[jwillenn]

GoodShepperd
Why can't you record gameplay? You can save replays of your matches, even offline ones. You have to save replay when match ends by pressing Y at the results screen, go to vault/replays, and convert replay to video. That makes it into an mp4 for you to transfer to your computer (from your microSD card) and upload to a site like youtube. The file will be in the "Extra" folder. Navigate through the sub folders to get to your mp4.

 

[GoodShepperd]

GoodShepperd
Why can't you record gameplay? You can save replays of your matches, even offline ones. You have to save replay when match ends by pressing Y at the results screen, go to vault/replays, and convert replay to video. That makes it into an mp4 for you to transfer to your computer (from your microSD card) and upload to a site like youtube. The file will be in the "Extra" folder. Navigate through the sub folders to get to your mp4.

The switch doesn't come with a microSD does it? I don't think I have one. I also wanted to record something from training mode so people can see the combo counter. What would be the easiest way to do that?


Edit: unrelated but does anybody know what the startup on up B is? Is Up B out of shield any good on WFT?

 

[RichWalk9891]

I've finally got my Smash Ultimate today, and I managed to unlock Wii Fit Trainer. And after testing her out, she does seem to be better than she was in WiiU/3DS, but only a little.

Unfortunately, I'm a bit disappointed that her hit-boxes haven't changed much. I'm still baffled that FTilt's foot doesn't connect even though her feet is literally touching the opponent from behind.

I'm hoping that when the balance patches arrive in the near future, WFT will be given the extra treatment she needs.

 

[Teeb147]

I find the character is a lot better, especially because of better mobility. and a few other htings, But I do think it falls short, especially when other characters got a lot better. So, wiifit will still be an underdog character, I think.

 

[Erimir]

One thing that's messing me up and causing SDs is that cancelling an aerial Sun Salutation charge offstage with airdodge is very dangerous...