Wii Fit Trainer changes in Ulimate so far

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#1
First off, I am pleased that my Wii U/3DS main will be returning in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. And apologies for the double thread, as I wasn't able to find a way to move the original thread to the Ultimate section.

Though there are currently a lack of news about Wii Fit Trainer's gameplay changes, I've decided to make a small list of new things I've noticed based on her trailer and screenshots, as provided below:


Right off the bat, we can see that WFT's faces are more expressive, focused, and detailed, as also showed in this screenshot:



What's also interesting to note is that WFT has light and pupils in her grey eyes, as well as eyelashes, and the highlights in her hair is given more detail.

The next notable change is her U-Tilt. WFT uses a different posture to perform the Triangle pose:



Judging by the new pose, the U-Tilt could have slightly more vertical range compared to the one in Wii U/3DS, where she was more crouched. It appears that juggling with the U-Tilt move has improved somewhat.

Up next is her Deep Breathing Down-B move:



The start up of the animation appears to be faster this time, allowing for obtaining the boost effects from Deep Breathing sooner and likely with more confidence doing so when closer to your opponents.

Other things of interest, but not fully confirmed:
- The F-Tilt hit-boxes seems to last slightly longer as Little Mac was still hit by WFT's foot during her Dancer pose, but I'm not entirely sure.
- The Down Throw ending animation appears to have been shortened too, perhaps?
- The F-Smash start-up animation seems a little shorter as well, but that's probably just me.
- The Header ball seems to have increased in size as well, which means a bigger hit-box too?
---

That's about it for now. As soon as more news about Wii Fit Trainer is released, I will list them here as well.
 
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⑨ball

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#2
SideB definitely buffed from the look here. We could already do what was shown here, but the transition from landing to dash attack is much smoother.
 

Erimir

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#3
That's female WFT spawning the ball and male WFT using dash attack... Not the same player.
 

sam☆jam

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#4
One exciting change will be canceling her down taunt (let’s stretch our legs) to dodge crouchable attacks and not be punished
 
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#6
Since there are more official pictures of Wii Fit Trainer in Ultimate, I have found a new picture of the Header Side-B move, and I decided to compare Ultimate's Header with Wii U/3DS to see if the ball size has changed:



Not only does WFT use a different pose to headbutt the ball, the ball itself has definitely grown in size, assuming that this is not a 'Huge Header' custom move being used. It's very possible that the hit-box will also have increased as well.
 

sam☆jam

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#8
I saw an interesting post elsewhere about a change to the ledge trumping mechanic in Ultimate.
Basically, a trumped character is now positioned closer to the ledge than before. Look at Link in the example here (Happens at 19m 29s)


It makes me wonder if Fair's spike will be a good ledge trump punish, since it seems that the new position sets the opponent up nicely. Fair was twice as fast as Dair too in Smash4, but I'm not sure about any of the FAFs for either character sadly so who knows. It doesn't seem like Bair will connect and if it did it certainly wouldn't be sweetspotted.
 
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#9
With thanks to Ffamran's analysis on another topic, I can also confirm that WFT's F-Tilt has also been updated. Not only her pose has slightly changed, the functionality of her attack has also changed too.



The original F-Tilt only had two active hit-box frames, which means that after those two frames, the attack would not register even if WFT was still in the middle of her Dancer attack. The new F-Tilt has now gained at least three more active hit-box frames, at least on her foot as shown in her teaser video where she was still able to hit Little Mac even after two frames has passed.

With this, F-Tilt seems to make for a more reliable anti-air move than before.
 

Erimir

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#10
Her foot also seems to extend further above her head. Her heel is clearly above the top of her head in the SSBU picture.
 

Ffamran

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#12
Her foot also seems to extend further above her head. Her heel is clearly above the top of her head in the SSBU picture.
It would depend on where they place the hitbox or how they size the hitbox. Her posture would indicate that she should hit a bit further up in Ultimate compared to Smash 4, but the developers could, depending on what they want to do, make the hitbox hit a bit higher up or even lower than what it looks like.
 
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#14
After looking into the trailer a few more times, I'd just like to put out some of my speculations on a couple changes I think may have been implemented besides the ones already mentioned, however, these are purely speculative changes, I would need someone to look deeper into it for me:

Neutral Air: There seems to be a notable amount of landing lag reduced. It looks safer, and one may be able to follow up much faster than in her past iteration.

Jab (particularly the last hit): It looks more consistent to me and seems to have more hit stun, perhaps it now digs every time or at least most of the time.

Sun Salutation: Although not totally obvious, it looks like it has more knockback. Looking closely, you can see that Villager is not in rage percent even after being grounded and hit with down tilt. And so that leads me to believe that he should be at around 80-90%, and Sun Salutation still caused sparks even without Deep Breathing (granted he was close to the ledge). Also, for some reason, the projectile looks faster to me, but that could just be me.

Forward Smash: It may have more horizontal range?

Minor changes: When up b ends or canceling side b, Wii Fit no longer flashes grey during helpless state.

If anyone can corroborate or challenge some of these changes, that would be great!
 
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#15
After looking into the trailer a few more times, I'd just like to put out some of my speculations on a couple changes I think may have been implemented besides the ones already mentioned, however, these are purely speculative changes, I would need someone to look deeper into it for me:

Neutral Air: There seems to be a notable amount of landing lag reduced. It looks safer, and one may be able to follow up much faster than in her past iteration.

Jab (particularly the last hit): It looks more consistent to me and seems to have more hit stun, perhaps it now digs every time or at least most of the time.

Sun Salutation: Although not totally obvious, it looks like it has more knockback. Looking closely, you can see that Villager is not in rage percent even after being grounded and hit with down tilt. And so that leads me to believe that he should be at around 80-90%, and Sun Salutation still caused sparks even without Deep Breathing (granted he was close to the ledge). Also, for some reason, the projectile looks faster to me, but that could just be me.

Forward Smash: It may have more horizontal range?

Minor changes: When up b ends or canceling side b, Wii Fit no longer flashes grey during helpless state.

If anyone can corroborate or challenge some of these changes, that would be great!
The Neutral Air move is confirmed to have less landing lag, and as for the Forward Smash:


At 16:36, Forward Smash was able to strike Lucario from behind even though WFT should logically not be able to hit him, unless Lucario has a deciptively larger hurt-box than his character model suggests.

The Sun Salutation is also stated on WFT's SSBU wiki site that it moves faster than before upon activating the projectile attack, though I'm not 100% myself.
 
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#16
It has been brought to my attention that the Forward Smash may have also changed in Ultimate:



As shown in the Ultimate Direct footage shown above at 16:36, Wii Fit Trainer was able to strike Lucario from behind. I have tested this in the WiiU/3DS version, pushed Lucario to the edge just as he was in this Direct footage, and I wasn't able to strike him from behind unless I was practically right on him.

It's very possible that the new Forward Smash may have more horizontal range, at least from behind.
 
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#18
Hey all, I just saw this interesting post by K9 on twitter where he mentions that each character looks like they go into a special set of animations when being hit by grounded jabs. It leads me (K9 mentions this too) to believe that jabs will now work for everyone consistently.

https://twitter.com/k9sbruce/status/1052736819442241536?s=21

The possibility of Wii Fit's jab working every time sounds almost too good to be true! I wonder what this could mean for Wii Fit's ground game now.
 
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#19
Hey all, I just saw this interesting post by K9 on twitter where he mentions that each character looks like they go into a special set of animations when being hit by grounded jabs. It leads me (K9 mentions this too) to believe that jabs will now work for everyone consistently.

https://twitter.com/k9sbruce/status/1052736819442241536?s=21

The possibility of Wii Fit's jab working every time sounds almost too good to be true! I wonder what this could mean for Wii Fit's ground game now.
This is excellent news. I've tested WFT's jabs in WiiU/3DS against Villager, and he would always be knocked airborne with each hit even at 0%, making it very difficult to bury him with the third jab.

From the official WFT Ultimate trailer, we can see that it's much easier to bury him with the third jab. If it is indeed consistent and reliable against all opponents, this is a boon to WFT's utility.
 
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Alzauné

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#20
There's now some gameplay footage of Wii Fit. The time stamp is 3:34:52.
One notable change is that her bair has much, much lower landing lag which is amazing for us.
 
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#21
After watching the latest footage, I've notice the following:

* DAir is executed much quicker
* DSmash seems to be executed quicker
* Sun Salutation has a new animation when charging up the projectile
* FSmash seems to be executed slightly quicker
* WFT does a quick pose after a Right Throw
* WFT's 'thumbs up' victory pose has slightly changed

Things are starting to look good for WFT so far!
 
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#22
After watching the latest footage, I've notice the following:

* DAir is executed much quicker
* DSmash seems to be executed quicker
* Sun Salutation has a new animation when charging up the projectile
* FSmash seems to be executed slightly quicker
* WFT does a quick pose after a Right Throw
* WFT's 'thumbs up' victory pose has slightly changed

Things are starting to look good for WFT so far!
I'd also like to note some things too that I found pretty great! ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuCcTgIRWeE&t=194s here's the footage if no one has seen it yet. Demetrius does a bit of a poor job really showcasing anything but it's all we got!).

-Back air looks much faster and practically lag-less upon landing (the weak hit does about 7% to Jigglypuff in 8-player Smash, timestamps 3:26/3:29. 1:15/3:12 are other instances where back air is thrown out and there is minimal lag to it).
-Not only does down air have a faster execution, the landing lag has also reduced a lot too.
-Sun Salutation may do more damage in 1-on-1 battles, it does about 18-23% here although it's hard to tell (timestamps 1:21 and 2:23. These instances are both without deep breathing!).
-Deep breathing + forward air on Jigglypuff does an exceptional 15% and incredible knockback (although it is Jigglypuff getting hit at a high percent).

This is about everything I could deconstruct, but I'll try looking at the gameplay a couple more times since it's tough to see exactly what is going on in all of these small interactions. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any use of header, so, so far whatever new properties it may have remain unknown. Overall, however, it seems like landing lag for Wii Fit has been reduced across the board. I also need to see how long deep breathing lasts exactly since Demetrius uses it constantly which likely reduces it's length.

Edit: If anyone that’s good at math would like to check, can someone see if there was a damage multiplier change with deep breathing? I remember the Smash 4 one being 1.2x, it may have been changed though!
 
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#24
Do you think the pose after the throw is gonna be a bad thing for us. I mean that's unnecessary endlag if you ask me.
Well, I would at least hope that it has more knockback and ends up being a kill throw or something, that's the only way I can see them justifying more end lag like this. Otherwise, it's definitely unnecessary and I don't see why they would have to nerf it. It's pretty hard to follow up on off Wii Fit's throws in general anyway (as we probably all know), so if it turns out to not be a kill throw it would just be kinda sucky.
 
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Garo

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#25
I'm a fair-weather WFT player so I can't be sure, but it seemed like Deep Breathing can be executed faster than in Smash 4, and the penalty cooldown might also be faster.
 

jwillenn

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#26
Here you can see seven tenths (down to 1.3 in healing from a fresh 2.0) of a reduction in Deep Breathing's healing effect if used while one is already in effect.

A shielded (perfect or not) Sun Sal changes its course. This could be a good threat in Teams or FFAs IF the hitbox remains active. There's no evidence of this in the video. At first I was like "no they didn't give us a trajectory control option for sun sal?!?!"



The Down Air kill against Pichu was crazy. I wonder how much of that may have come from a significant buff to Deep Breathing's knockback boost effect. I'm going to try some stuff out in 4U today.


I suspect they're going to have the entire roster open for these tournaments leading up to release, starting with the Japan Invitational tomorrow! So there's a chance we'll get a closer look at WFT then, or at least much sooner than launch.
 
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Splotim

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#27
At 0:25 in this video, you can see that you don’t get landing lag after using header. Pretty cool buff that should help with landing.
 
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#28
Another thing I forgot to point out: WFT's Final Smash now ends with a very large and slow-moving yoga pose silhouette that apparently deals large knock-back upon contact.

It's nothing spectacular, but at least it's not a complete copy-paste of Mario/Dr. Mario's Final Smash.
 

jwillenn

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#30
Sometimes I watch this game and I am not so sure about the extent to which gameplay is faster. SOMETIMES. Looking at Splotim's video just now made me go WOW! Without Deep Breathing, Wii Fit Trainer seems to be moving much faster in this game than 4's version would WITH DB! :surprised: Is it just me?

My Header Cancel play is going to have to adjust. I remember trying it at faster speeds in 4, and it was really something to get used to.
 
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Erimir

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#32
I mean, I wouldn't say we can confirm that she's faster, a couple of videos and no proper testing isn't enough information to say that with certainty.

But I also see no basis for the claim that no character has had their speed buffed... I would be very surprised if literally no character's speed has been buffed (or nerfed, for that matter).

Supposedly Ganondorf, Link, Zelda, Kirby and Ness all have had their dash speed buffed, and other characters have had other speed changes (walk speed, air speed), and they've all been available in the demo and been tested by experienced players.
 

Splotim

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#33
I mean, I wouldn't say we can confirm that she's faster, a couple of videos and no proper testing isn't enough information to say that with certainty.

But I also see no basis for the claim that no character has had their speed buffed... I would be very surprised if literally no character's speed has been buffed (or nerfed, for that matter).

Supposedly Ganondorf, Link, Zelda, Kirby and Ness all have had their dash speed buffed, and other characters have had other speed changes (walk speed, air speed), and they've all been available in the demo and been tested by experienced players.
I just remember that everyone used to scream “x seems faster” after a smash 4 patch, so I’m a little skeptical whenever I hear it. I really hope I’m wrong, but I’m gonna need proof before I believe anything.

I kinda agree she seems faster tho...
 
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#34
According to the SSBU site, there may have been a few more changes made to WFT:

* The knockback of the Back Throw has been increased
* WFT's Up B recovery has more vertical range
* The Sun Salutation projectile moves faster and lasts longer, but the knockback has been reduced
 

Alsyght

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#35
^^^ Dragon Smash realeased a video showing her changes. She doesn’t seem to much better overall but I guess those changes are useful.

I wish she had more of a grab game. Her back-air could use some autocanceling.
 

Erimir

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#37
Twitter thread from Spanish Smasher at the event there with the full roster:

https://twitter.com/XVis16/status/1059187650521899014

Summary:
+ dash speed buffed
+ Header lag reduced, ball slightly bigger (as it seemed from pictures)
? Super Hoop is multi-hit
+ and goes higher and requires less mashing
+ u-tilt hitbox is much better, larger and higher (suspected based on changed animation) and can combo into itself at low %
+ less landing lag on b-air
+ front hitbox of f-air seems stronger (also seemed so from Nintendo Treehouse video)
? up-throw less knockback, easier to followup (but probably means harder to KO with)
- f-tilt seems weaker
+ Deep Breathing seems to have a larger knockback boost (possibly placebo)

other note is that being able to d-tilt out of dash seems like it could be useful

The SSB Wiki also noted changes to Sun Salutation (travels faster and further)

Of course some of these could be placebo, but there are definitely some changes and mostly seems like buffs.
 
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#38
Here's some more info from Vis, who was provided by Erimir above me:

- FTilt comes out at frame 6 but last at least to frame 10, FAF 33 -> 22
- UTilt comes between frame 3 - 5
- Jab 1 still comes at frame 5
- Jab 2 at frame 3 Jab 3 startup 7 -> 5
- Ftilt startup 10 -> 9
- Sun Salutation startup 24 -> 17, FAF 57 -> 40
- DAir startup 21 -> 12, FAF 20 -> 10
- SoccerBall size 1 -> 1.5x
- Deep Breathing now lasts a little longer, at approximately 10 seconds
 

Alsyght

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#39
Here's some more info from Vis, who was provided by Erimir above me:

- FTilt comes out at frame 6 but last at least to frame 10, FAF 33 -> 22
- UTilt comes between frame 3 - 5
- Jab 1 still comes at frame 5
- Jab 2 at frame 3 Jab 3 startup 7 -> 5
- Ftilt startup 10 -> 9
- Sun Salutation startup 24 -> 17, FAF 57 -> 40
- DAir startup 21 -> 12, FAF 20 -> 10
- SoccerBall size 1 -> 1.5x
- Deep Breathing now lasts a little longer, at approximately 10 seconds
What’s FAF?

And do they know how long the cooldown is in between deep breaths?
 
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#40
What’s FAF?

And do they know how long the cooldown is in between deep breaths?
As far as I know, it means First Actionable Frame.

And I haven't found anything about the cooldown time between Deep Breathing, but I'm going to assume that it doesn't take as much time to reuse this time.
 
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