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Why you shouldnt buy into hax's opinion on falco

C-SAF

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So im going to preface this by saying that i havent kept up with whats been said on these boards the last couple weeks. Maybe you all have discussed this already, but judging from most of the other discussions ive seen and heard, people haven't been very optimistic about falcos lasers lately.


This isnt surprising since everyone loves to complain about their character, but recently hax said something along the lines that falco's lasers are a "gimmick". Hax has said some pretty controversial stuff before so im sure there are a lot of people that will just dismiss it, but when a top player says something about why a character sucks, the scrubs usually like to cling to it like gospel and completely overreact to it. With top falcos seemingly dropping like flies (hello zhu with 25th at pound, our highest placing falco) people dont need any more ammunition to complain about one of the best characters in the game. Im writing this post right now to tell you why what he said is dumb, why his reasoning for why lasers are a gimmick is even dumber and just flat out surprising to hear from one of the most technical players on the planet.


To paraphrase hax, his reasoning for why lasers are gimmicky is that falco cannot react to his own laser coming back at him at close range. This would make closing the gap at close range with lasers impossible, and falco would essentially have to play laserless and very defensive (mostly in the context of the fox matchup).


Advents like trigger tricking and the 20XX hack pack have made powershielding far more common and easier than ever. But that is why it is also easier than ever for falco to powershield the powershielded laser back at his opponent. In fact, it may very well be easier for falco than his opponent.


Hax's biggest mistake is assuming that falco has no time to react to his own lasers. In truth, falco does NOT NEED to react. The falco controls the range, height, and timing of the laser being shot, he has more information on how to powershield the laser in advance than his opponent does. With the consistency that players can now powershield lasers, it can be assumed that close range, high lasers will be powershielded against competent opponents. The falco can assume that there will be a powershield, powershield his laser back.


This sounds very 20XX on the surface, but in reality, it is infact as easy (maybe easier) to practice than powershielding itself. Like it was said earlier, falco controls the range, height and timing of the laser. That means he can practice a specific timing to powershield that is universal. Level 9 bots with full handicap can provide all the powershielded lasers you need, it is just then the falcos job to grind the telegraphed situation from the range that is desired. It would take an excellent awareness of your own range that you need to be in to do it, but like all fighters, that is a massive part of the game, and a skill that you should be using for everything else you do. After you become familiar with the range u want to laser from and the height of the laser you want to shoot, it is simply a matter of timing.


The most difficult part of this is confirming that your own laser has been powershielded. Since everything else is a practiced motion, this is the only reaction necessary on the falco's end. The falco would always shield in an attempt to powershield his laser back as this part is too fast to react too. The sound of the powershield from your opponent should be the cue to how u should move after you shield.


As an example though (this would be both character and range dependant), if the laser is powershielded, you would be primed to react with a wavedash or jump in after you shield to continue the attack. If your opponent fails to powershield the laser, you could be primed to react with a wavedash back. No matter what two options you decide are appropriate depending on successful/failed powershield by your opponent, they are possible because they are predetermined. This entire situation is very fast, and so it has to be planned before falco is in it. Because falco controls all the variables however, i see no reason why it is not possible.


This decision may not even be entirely necessary, as you could decide to jump in regardless of whether your opponent powershields, as depending on the range you are at, you may have time to capitalize on the unpowershielded laser by your opponent. Or you could stay in place and hold the stage you have just taken from your opponent, forcing them to retreat. By being capable of powershielding the laser back at your opponent at close range, falco gains the ability to be very aggressive in his approach once again.


This has gotten to be a fairly long post so i will end it here. I figured I should share these ideas out somewhere. For anyone still doubting this is possible, i would like you to consider Yoshi's parry. I play with a very technically competent yoshi in Ottawa who is able to parry almost any aerial he can get the timing for with amazing consistency. He is also phenomenal at powershielding because of this. The way he parries is based almost solely on timing. His options out of parry are predetermined as there is no time to react after a parry, but because he knows what the situation will be, he can select the appropriate actions out of parry before it begins. This is the same as what falco can do when he powershields a laser back at an opponent, only falco is not even relying on reading his opponents timing. He sets the timing himself when he shoots the laser.


TL;DR: Falcos lasers are still the best projectile in the game. He does not need to react to a laser powershielded back at him to powershield the laser yet again. He can anticipate the situation. Since he controls the timing, range and height of the laser being shot, it is conceivably easier to powershield a returning laser than the initial laser itself. Since falco controls all the variables of the laser being shot, it can be practiced outside of matches to a very high degree.
 
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Scruffy_Scoundrel

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Most of the talks I've seen on the Falco boards lately have been about beating power-sheilds and reestablishing laser control, and we've come up with some pretty creative answers.

Though to be honest we may have been over thinking it, we had a lot of talks about utilizing laser feints to trick the opponent and grabs to condition them to not powersheild but just powersheilding it back is probably a better answer.
 

FE_Hector

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(hello zhu with 25th at pound, our highest placing falco
NOTE: WBallz was being an idiot and playing Fox vs Laudandus, so there's also that.

I agree with you overall, though. A lot of top players have really weird views of the game. Sometimes people react to what ONE top player says like it's the absolute truth. As an easy example of this, let's take Armada's view of McDonald's. Personally, I believe he's right in saying that McDonald's sucks, but at the end of the day, it's just an opinion. If Armada had said something like that about something in the game, there's a pretty good chance a lot of people would immediately assume him to be right. I'm not saying you shouldn't listen to top players, but you shouldn't blindly listen to them. To continue an Armada example, he's definitely right about Puff-Peach being a horrid MU for Peach.
 

C-SAF

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Most of the talks I've seen on the Falco boards lately have been about beating power-sheilds and reestablishing laser control, and we've come up with some pretty creative answers.

Though to be honest we may have been over thinking it, we had a lot of talks about utilizing laser feints to trick the opponent and grabs to condition them to not powersheild but just powersheilding it back is probably a better answer.
Yeah there are actually a bunch of things falco can do about power shielding. Shooting low lasers and jumping over them also works, although its not as good at close range. Powershielding the laser back is definetly the most guaranteed way but laser feints might become even more interesting if your opponent got used to you powershielding their powershieded laser.


NOTE: WBallz was being an idiot and playing Fox vs Laudandus, so there's also that.

I agree with you overall, though. A lot of top players have really weird views of the game. Sometimes people react to what ONE top player says like it's the absolute truth. As an easy example of this, let's take Armada's view of McDonald's. Personally, I believe he's right in saying that McDonald's sucks, but at the end of the day, it's just an opinion. If Armada had said something like that about something in the game, there's a pretty good chance a lot of people would immediately assume him to be right. I'm not saying you shouldn't listen to top players, but you shouldn't blindly listen to them. To continue an Armada example, he's definitely right about Puff-Peach being a horrid MU for Peach.
Anytime a top player says something they are definitely too good to ignore. Armada saying what he does about mcdonalds actually did make me reconsider eating there lol
 

FE_Hector

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Also, something that just came to mind. Zhu mentioned at one point that he actually uses the lag from shooting a laser to set up for a Z-Powershield (you can find info about it somewhere, but tl;dr it like doubles the powershield box) when he's playing against opponents who are good at powershielding. You could see him doing that a bit at Pound. It's how he got the double powershields so many times.
 

J⩓мє

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Anytime a top player says something they are definitely too good to ignore. Armada saying what he does about mcdonalds actually did make me reconsider eating there lol
I mean, all due respect otherwise, but really it was Armada ranting about McDonalds which made you reconsider eating there?
 

タオー

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I forget, is there a mechanic set in place for a limit of Power Shields, or does the damage go up every time or something like that? I vaguely remember that being a thing
 

FE_Hector

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I forget, is there a mechanic set in place for a limit of Power Shields, or does the damage go up every time or something like that? I vaguely remember that being a thing
To my knowledge, a powershielded projectile does half its intended damage when it then connects with whoever launched it. It's double if you shined it back, though, so shine those stitches! Anyhow, the limit on how many times a projectile can be powershielded is probably only limited to the number of frames that that projectile is allowed to stay on screen. I'm pretty sure, for example, that Sheik's needles stay on screen for 99 frames, so a needle could be powershielded back and forth until 99 frames have passed.
 

タオー

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To my knowledge, a powershielded projectile does half its intended damage when it then connects with whoever launched it. It's double if you shined it back, though, so shine those stitches! Anyhow, the limit on how many times a projectile can be powershielded is probably only limited to the number of frames that that projectile is allowed to stay on screen. I'm pretty sure, for example, that Sheik's needles stay on screen for 99 frames, so a needle could be powershielded back and forth until 99 frames have passed.
Thank you, I remember stumbling across some projectile mechanics while studying peach, this makes some sense to me. The double damage from shine reflect is interesting, don't think I came across that before.
 

FE_Hector

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Thank you, I remember stumbling across some projectile mechanics while studying peach, this makes some sense to me. The double damage from shine reflect is interesting, don't think I came across that before.
I'm relatively sure shining stuff back increases the KB at the very least. Try having a Samus shoot a charge shot at you and look at how much KB it does to her at 0 compared to you.
 

C-SAF

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I mean, all due respect otherwise, but really it was Armada ranting about McDonalds which made you reconsider eating there?
The sweedish accent makes anything he says twice as convincing

Edit: and yeah I didn't even mention how falco has one of the easiest times setting up for z-powershields FE_Hector FE_Hector . It makes all this even more powerful and reliable.
 
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Klemes

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-Squid is amazing at double PS.
-Armada also told americans there are polar bears everywhere in sweden. Everybody knows McDonalds is the devil, it's just a bait to make you more gullible to his expert trolling.
-Hax doesn't think Falco sucks : he ranked him 8th on his list (after blue fox, white fox, green fox, red fox, light blue fox, light green fox, and light red fox). He's just a gimmick character is all.

-What really triggers the **** out of me is this : Since when did people dismiss what M2K has to say about the game and started to buy into the Blur's opinions ? I mean, REALLY ? The Crimson Buster is your Prophet now ? Cm'on KJH is hillarious, but the Blur was serious when he said "I could see Falco being as low as 4".

It's not a mystery why Falco looks bad right now. PP is in hell, and when he reappears he looks more like a Marth main. Mango figured out he can't dual main spacies(breaking news) and he chose fox because Hbox/whatever and he's rocking his "sick Marth". Right when you thought these days were over, Westballz does the Westballz and places 49th at a major. We seriously need a new Falco hero IMO. When I saw Drugged fox started maining Falco I was legit blown away and overjoyed. But then Hbox moved in in his area and after a few weeklies he said he couldn't not play fox vs him so bye bye Falco, guess he wasn't that commited. It hurts to say it, but ICs and Samus are better represented that the bird now, plus the understandable fox overpopulation, the shiek revolt, the eternal Falcon train... The only thing worse that could happen is 666xx.
 

Scruffy_Scoundrel

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I've been in the hyperbolic time chamber, expect people to remember the bird is the word within the year
 

-ACE-

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You can jump over ps'd lasers from medium range (with another laser approach, or without one). Once this happens you're right in their face usually. Obviously a mixup that can be beaten but not all that many Falcos do this. People are just getting better imo and others try to find the easiest way to win. Surprise, Falco requires more effort now. He's still the same kicka** character he was 4 years ago, not to mention one of the few characters that still has true combos despite optimal DI. It takes time for the meta to adapt. Marth had quite a low point and now look. Just keep grinding birdies!
 
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Darklink401

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Since predicting a powershield to a close-up laser, and not actually having something to powershield, would take a few frames of your time, couldn't you just do the PC Chris 'hot&cold' and alternate between shooting lasers, and not shooting lasers when approaching?

Note: I'm bad at this game xD Just wondering if that would actually be a decent way to overcome the issue of laser powershielding.
 

FE_Hector

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Since predicting a powershield to a close-up laser, and not actually having something to powershield, would take a few frames of your time, couldn't you just do the PC Chris 'hot&cold' and alternate between shooting lasers, and not shooting lasers when approaching?

Note: I'm bad at this game xD Just wondering if that would actually be a decent way to overcome the issue of laser powershielding.
Alternating isn't a good idea because it's an easy pattern. Mixing in empty shots is a good strategy, though, esp. against people confident in their PS game.
 

Darklink401

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Alternating isn't a good idea because it's an easy pattern. Mixing in empty shots is a good strategy, though, esp. against people confident in their PS game.
Well not alternating in any sort of predicable pattern, just, mixing it up. What's empty shots? like shooting so close to the ground the laser doesn't come out?
 

FE_Hector

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Well not alternating in any sort of predicable pattern, just, mixing it up. What's empty shots? like shooting so close to the ground the laser doesn't come out?
Empty shots... firing blanks... there are a few terms that are synonymous for just getting the click and no laser.
 

BloodL10N

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I'm late to the convo, [I won't ever buy into someone else's opinion unless it's 100% full proof and in melee that just doesn't happen.] but from every game that I've played with Falco vs Fox I've never seen it hugely in Fox's favor. MU's like Peach and Jigglypuff however... eh.

It's doable but be prepared for the match to go on for 6-7mins because essentially any trade that you take from :peachmelee::jigglypuffmelee: = death in my experience. I don't think Falco will go anywhere but people have definitely learned some better gimps against him.
Empty shots... firing blanks... there are a few terms that are synonymous for just getting the click and no laser.
This is something I've been doing, it works as long as you can get your grab out or whatever move it is that you're going for. Mixing it up being unpredictable. Gotta fly even with clipped wings.
 

FE_Hector

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It's doable but be prepared for the match to go on for 6-7mins because essentially any trade that you take from :peachmelee::jigglypuffmelee: = death in my experience. I don't think Falco will go anywhere but people have definitely learned some better gimps against him.
On this front alone, I intend to put a LOT of work into those MUs once I'm better as a player in general.
 

BloodL10N

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On this front alone, I intend to put a LOT of work into those MUs once I'm better as a player in general.
I'll be honest it's hard. You might even want to pull your hair out at the difficulty of it sometimes. For Jigs a lack of patience will get you killed. For Peach not knowing her weight and the timing of hitstun could get you killed. It's doable but jeez.

The tips that I give to Falco's trying to get in on Peach is never, you can put that into capitals if you want, never use Dair on shield unless you're purposefully overshooting it hoping for a shield stab. All Peach has to do in that circumstance is CC d-smash and because you're already holding down from the dair and possibly down again for the shine you're going to take around 3 hits of the d-smash.

But this post isn't about those MU's and more about the insane opinions of a Fox main.

I believe in you Hector.
 

C-SAF

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BloodL10N BloodL10N I guess nobody remembers PP anymore. Falco beats both peach and jiggs, taking a long time is a terrible way to judge a matchup.

Dair on shield can be made 100% safe btw, u can retreat with it or just flat out do it late enough (preferably on the back of her shield) that peach has no options to punish. If your getting dsmashed its because u completely missed or are doing your dairs far too early. Never using dair on shield is too drastic of a way to solve that problem.

U also don't have to hold down to do a dair, u can cstick it or just let go of down when u do the input. I recently made a post about how to get out of peach's dsmash should u cc the first hit. U just have to react by hitting "up" and u can take as little as 15%. U can in some instances still punish the dsmash.
 
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BloodL10N

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BloodL10N BloodL10N I guess nobody remembers PP anymore. Falco beats both peach and jiggs, taking a long time is a terrible way to judge a matchup.

Dair on shield can be made 100% safe btw, u can retreat with it or just flat out do it late enough (preferably on the back of her shield) that peach has no options to punish. If your getting dsmashed its because u completely missed or are doing your dairs far too early. Never using dair on shield is too drastic of a way to solve that problem.

U also don't have to hold down to do a dair, u can cstick it or just let go of down when u do the input. I recently made a post about how to get out of peach's dsmash should u cc the first hit. U just have to react by hitting "up" and u can take as little as 15%. U can in some instances still punish the dsmash.
I didn't mean never use dair, that'd be like saying don't use up smash with Fox, I was just meaning don't blindly throw out a dair on a shield, or any move for that matter unless you know it's safe on shield. Don't read too hard into my post. I could reply with a ten page long rebuttal but I don't think it's necessary.

The thing with holding down is most likely with Falco at least half of the time you're in the air you'll most likely be pressing down to either input a fast fall or shine, these are miniscule moments yeah, actions only taking up maybe a couple frames but the statement still stands that you'll be pressing down meaning you'll most likely take one more hit than most characters.

I don't think anyone has forgotten about PPMD, but seeing as how he mostly uses Marth, even though his Falco still has results I think people brush him aside as a Falco "main". I never said the MU was unwinnable, it definitely is winnable, I just said that it's not in his favor and if you're playing against a Jigs that KNOWS what they're doing be prepared to get gimped at around any percent even with good DI.

Same goes for the Peach MU, its winnable every MU is winnable. Just gotta play it right.

But seeing as how pretty much every Falco has a different playstyle, PPMD's having the most optimal IMO, he has definitely shown it can be done.

I forgot what we were talking about. Peace.
 

Riqbic

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I feel like I'm missing something (I'm pretty new) but why do we have to powershield it at all? Shine will reflect and it deploys in one frame and you can wavedash out of it. Why not just waveshine projectiles? Is there lag when you reflect something?
 

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I feel like I'm missing something (I'm pretty new) but why do we have to powershield it at all? Shine will reflect and it deploys in one frame and you can wavedash out of it. Why not just waveshine projectiles? Is there lag when you reflect something?
You don't have to powershield if you don't want to, it's okay to get hit by the laser but not by the attack that comes after it. The shine has a bunch of lag on it that could get you zero-to-death and if not, at least punished.

I think they're talking about power shielding the power shielded laser. And while the hurtbox of the shine may come out in I think it's 2-4 frames, [Fox's shine is a 1 frame move however] the actual reflector aspect is more in the 12th frame I believe, don't quote me on that.
I've gone for reflectors off stage to hit Samus' charge shot back but got hit at just the wrong frames. Just because you see it doesn't mean it's actually reflecting, found that out by accident but still.

TL;DR Powershielding has less lag than reflector after reflector gets hit.
 

WondrousMoose

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And while the hurtbox of the shine may come out in I think it's 2-4 frames, [Fox's shine is a 1 frame move however] the actual reflector aspect is more in the 12th frame I believe, don't quote me on that.
Falco's Shine is 1 frame as well, and the reflection comes on frame 4.
 
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C-SAF

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BloodL10N BloodL10N I wasn't reading to deep, there is a big difference between "never do dair on shield" and "don't do an unsafe dair".

Fastfall only requires a tap downwards. Its good to be in the habit of doing this if u are getting into shield dropping. And no u do not have to be hit by more than one hit if u tap up and DI out. That was a big part of my post.

And as far as im concerned, unless u've played hbox, there isn't a puff that "knows the matchup". Matchups aren't shaped by people's experience at lower levels.
 

FE_Hector

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I want to add that PPMD and HBox agree that Falco beats Puff. I'm not sure of his opinion of Falco-Peach, but at the very worst it's 55-45 in Peach's favor.
 

SkippyJ

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We're sort of off topic at this point but what about the Samus MU? Ik ppl say we win but I've heard records say otherwise, and I mean, Samus can gimp us to hell, and our combo/punish game is crippled + she can out zone us. Oh and up B OOS hurts. I don't see how we win the matchup tbh.
 

CP Adagio

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We're sort of off topic at this point but what about the Samus MU? Ik ppl say we win but I've heard records say otherwise, and I mean, Samus can gimp us to hell, and our combo/punish game is crippled + she can out zone us. Oh and up B OOS hurts. I don't see how we win the matchup tbh.
I don't see how an aggressive Falco wins the Matchup (CC Down smash, Up B OOS), but playing a patient/campy Falco makes it pretty easy to win. Your projectile is better because it can't be destroyed with a move and is quicker, so you don't even have to approach. Samus doesn't know how to/can't approach so it's not a problem. Just laser until she's out of CC range, up tilt and back air her if she tries to approach or drop down onto you

Edit: DEFENSIVE Falco is totally the future btw
 
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FE_Hector

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I mean, if you angle your shield forwards and down, then Samus' upB OoS doesn't actually hit you. It's just a matter of being ready to do that when you hit their shield unsafely. If she shoots a missile, Falco's nair beats it basically every time. On top of that, she's a character with a very wavedash-based neutral. When you approach a Samus, you basically have to account for whether or not they're gonna wavedash and just place a solid aerial right on top of them. As said, if they shield, you angle yours forwards and down and probably punish them for their option because very few Samus' are as good at Duck as edge canceling upB OoS. Adagio is definitely right that utilting her as she comes down is insanely good.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Lasers are great when you use them better than your opponent can handle them. But as you play better players, you find some players have really clever tricks to make lasers work in their favor instead of yours.

Powershield -> wavedash is better for Marth/Fox/Sheik than SHL -> Dash is for Falco. First, there isn't 20-some frames of startup. Second, those 3 characters all have marginally better tools to backup the laser. If you could execute perfectly every time, I think powershield laser is roughly equivalent to having a 1 pawn lead over the opponent.
 

SkippyJ

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Lmao that is so untrue it hurts.
Maybe I'm severely off base but it seems Falcos punish game has already been pretty freaking optimized. Sure it's technically difficult but watching top Falco players they can all combo non floaties to death pretty reliably with a couple good reads.. And yet Falco isn't winning tournaments..

Then watching PP sets and seeing his use of lasers that is, from what I've seen, ahead of the other Falcos by a fair margin.. It can only lead one to believe that the most significant way the bird can be pushed from here is in his laser game... And, as laser are used more and more optimally, its inevitable that Falco will become more and more "campy," at least to some degree.

I, for one, am excited for this future :)
 

FE_Hector

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Raleigh, NC
Maybe I'm severely off base but it seems Falcos punish game has already been pretty freaking optimized. Sure it's technically difficult but watching top Falco players they can all combo non floaties to death pretty reliably with a couple good reads.. And yet Falco isn't winning tournaments..

Then watching PP sets and seeing his use of lasers that is, from what I've seen, ahead of the other Falcos by a fair margin.. It can only lead one to believe that the most significant way the bird can be pushed from here is in his laser game... And, as laser are used more and more optimally, its inevitable that Falco will become more and more "campy," at least to some degree.

I, for one, am excited for this future :)
The thing is that players like PP and Mango aren't defensive players in the least. They both have some clever little things to their aggression. PP, for example, loves to DD in between lasers to mix his opponents up on an approach. It's not camping in the least, but it isn't full-on aggression, either.

I feel the biggest thing here is that people confuse the concepts of camping and playing defensively. If I'm camping, I'm standing under a battlefield side platform shooting a billion lasers at my opponent cuz either I know they can't handle them or I have no idea how to win the neutral game otherwise.

If I'm playing defensively (how I feel floaties should be handled), I'm going to get in my opponents face with lasers, but never actually approach. I'll use my shield to handle their attacks instead of looking for trades, and I'll run away and rely a lot on whiff punishing. The goal of playing defensively is to create an opening out of forcing them to play offensively. Camping is literally just playing lame.

Note: I actually don't think Falco's punish game is that optimized yet. I think that the two biggest issues with Falco not winning majors right now are that PP isn't back yet and floaties haven't been explored properly. Yes PP has a few little things he can do vs floaties that help him, but the biggest reason his Falco beat them back in the day was that he ALWAYS maintained an incredible control over the neutral game and just dealth chip damage the whole time. We've seen sparks of genius vs floaties from Westballz, but nothing that he's ever done consistently. This, I think, is a big undertaking that all the up-and-comers and new-age Falco's needa try to work on.

(I do believe PP can win a major with only Falco. I don't see it happening simply because his Marth is more reliable vs Peach, but it's 100% possible.)
 

CP Adagio

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
52
The thing is that players like PP and Mango aren't defensive players in the least. They both have some clever little things to their aggression. PP, for example, loves to DD in between lasers to mix his opponents up on an approach. It's not camping in the least, but it isn't full-on aggression, either.

I feel the biggest thing here is that people confuse the concepts of camping and playing defensively. If I'm camping, I'm standing under a battlefield side platform shooting a billion lasers at my opponent cuz either I know they can't handle them or I have no idea how to win the neutral game otherwise.

If I'm playing defensively (how I feel floaties should be handled), I'm going to get in my opponents face with lasers, but never actually approach. I'll use my shield to handle their attacks instead of looking for trades, and I'll run away and rely a lot on whiff punishing. The goal of playing defensively is to create an opening out of forcing them to play offensively. Camping is literally just playing lame.

Note: I actually don't think Falco's punish game is that optimized yet. I think that the two biggest issues with Falco not winning majors right now are that PP isn't back yet and floaties haven't been explored properly. Yes PP has a few little things he can do vs floaties that help him, but the biggest reason his Falco beat them back in the day was that he ALWAYS maintained an incredible control over the neutral game and just dealth chip damage the whole time. We've seen sparks of genius vs floaties from Westballz, but nothing that he's ever done consistently. This, I think, is a big undertaking that all the up-and-comers and new-age Falco's needa try to work on.

(I do believe PP can win a major with only Falco. I don't see it happening simply because his Marth is more reliable vs Peach, but it's 100% possible.)
When I said campy Falco I meant DEFENSIVE Falco, I should've been better with my word choice. Obviously campy playstyles don't take advantage of all his great options is neutral, but a defensive play style certainly does that without accentuating his weaknesses
 
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