Why you should use Beat

[Overswarm]

http://gfycat.com/ThickDeterminedAmericanbulldog


so, so, so many more options

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Show proof or it isn't better!

 

[Greward]

yep, with beat that wouldn't have happened.

 

[---]

That's an evolving metagame for ya.

1333 is at least on the EVO sets.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Expected a video showing Beat being good.... got a video showing Rush being used badly. hmm

So in the video, NL:
A) missed the upB snap on the 2nd upB
B) Somehow lost/wasted his 2nd jump, which he could have used to avoid the punishes after the 3rd/4th upBs
C) Refused to go low where he wouldn't have been punished for the 3rd and 4th upBs.
D) Missed the tech to his death on the 5th upB.

Meanwhile, Rush kept him alive and able to recover against Villager (one of the better edgeguarders in the game) for 4-5 edgeguarding attempts, and would have allowed him to survive if he had gone low, kept his 2nd jump, or teched the stage spike.

Idk man, I don't think this illustrates that Rush is bad, and without a comparison to anything, it doesn't illustrate that Beat would be better in that scenario. In actuality, Beat would be easier to hit during the 2nd UpB with a turnip spike, which might seal it right then if Villager saw it in time. beat would also be easier to hit with Villager Fair/Bair, so I'm just not convinced that the scenario changes all that much with it.

idk, I think this video is just showing NL getting outplayed in this situation... no offense to him, I still consider him among the best Megamen, but he had better options here, and it was player error that led to all of this, rather than the move itself.

At the very, very least, Rush gave him more chances than many other chars would have in this scenario

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

Rush isn't bad. Imo, it is the most reliable up B in Mega Man's arsenal. NinjaLink just choked the execution. It looks like he double jumped and immediately Rushed on the 2nd edgeguard attempt, which means he didn't sweet spot the ledge, which means he was screwed for the rest of the stock. You should never get gimped like this if you use Rush correctly. You should almost always preserve your double jump. In this instance, using Beat would still get you hit, no?

 

[Overswarm]

There is no execution with beat. You press up+b, then go towards the stage or ledge. /done.

Get hit? Press up+b again and momentum glitch throws you up super high and you are now back on the stage.

It is easy.

 

[Katakiri]

In that video, if he had Beat, he could have Up-B'd very high up after he got knocked away by the Villager's D-Air, then used Down-B and landed on either the platform or stage protected by his Barrier.

Against ZSS, Palutena, Greninja, and Falco, characters that can chase you vertically very well, Rush is better just to get to the ledge; but in any other MU Beat is far more difficult to deal with. I main MK and it's difficult even for me to gimp a smart Mega Man with Beat. The best I can do is Up-Smash or Nado when he lands and hope Plant Barrier/Lead Shield doesn't hit me before is air dodge ends.

Beat gets you back to the stage, Rush gets you to the ledge. Which is more valuable?

 

[Fenrir VII]

If he had beat, he would have gotten hit during the 2nd upB (where he missed the snap in this video)

If he got hit by a turnip spike or a stage spike, he dies there, instead of 3 upBs later. If he gets hit by something else, Villager is guaranteed another hit (mega still under stage), and we go somewhere else from there.

Look, you can (correctly) argue that beat is better in some matchups, but this video doesn't show that, or really anything other than Villager edgeguarding well while megaman is screwing up.

To show a scenario where beat would get hit/killed anyway, and neglect the flexibility that Rush provides onstage and off... It just doesn't make the point.

 

[Locke 06]

Beat's momentum glitch makes it really hard to get gimped at low %. However, you are easier to hit during your recovery and getting hit at high %'s will get you killed outright.

That's the trade off you are making. End of story.

 

[p1ay6ack]

does anyone have a video of megaman doing a beat glitch?

 

[CopShowGuy]

does anyone have a video of megaman doing a beat glitch?

Yeah. People keep mentioning this momentum glitch but I've never seen it either.

 

[Locke 06]

If you've played around enough with Beat, it happens somewhat frequently...

If you get hit and use beat ASAP, you'll bypass the startup and start to rise immediately. While it could be intentional part of the move, the way the game normally functions makes it seem like a glitch.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Well, if anything, this makes me want to use Beat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2LzlRUzls


... Had to be done.

I'm so sorry.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I don't want my face to be eaten by a laser-shooting robot bird!

 

[cot(θ)]

For the sake of giving the move a fair shot, I plan on running Beat during friendlies this weekend. I'm expecting to get spiked every time I use it, but hey, we'll see.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You know Beat can be pretty great. Mega Man is a fast faller with a vertical recovery move. He can't go very deep for any edgeguard. But his Bair is a move that just itches to be used for that purpose. Beat lets Mega Man recover from pretty much any point no matter how low or how far. And like his other Up B options, he can double jump, air dodge, and attack after its finished. So, why not just be smart and use it to recover above the ledge, yet still far from it? That way you can air dodge past edgeguarding attempts with the aid of your double jump, or simply recover high up and fast fall down to the stage. Rush provides none of these options on a consistent basis. And we should take advantage of the absence of special landing lag.

 

[p1ay6ack]

what i really like about beat is that i can jump away from the stage as my opponent is recovering, then i acr myself a bit under my opponent and reverse danger wrap, making danger wrap propell upward in an arc that covers alot of options. my opponent pretty much has to land in a very predictable place where i can flame sword on stage as i'm recovering with beat. it's really awesome.

btw, beat is entirely different from rush. ppl are saying beat is just asking to be stage spiked, but that's because you're using beat like rush. that's the wrong way to use beat. the thing that separate beat from rush is that beat lets you recover away from the stage, then upward and to the middle of the stage, and did you know you can second jump after beat like rush. that's amazing.

I really like how i am able to go in deep with beat to give off stage prescence and pressure, and flame sword is my best weapon here.

 

[Azazel]

Tornado hold is the best up special. I don't know why and thing else would beat it besides the only significant thing you miss out on is Rush Coil Camping where you continously bounce on Rush which is helpful on some MUs

 

[Overswarm]

Tornado hold is worthless against anyone that can edgeguard you. Megaman gets a worse marth recovery

 

[cot(θ)]

Tornado hold is worthless against anyone that can edgeguard you. Megaman gets a worse marth recovery

Marth's recovery is pretty good, and super hard to edgeguard. Tornado Hold doesn't even compare to Dolphin Slash or Crescent Slash in terms of how safe it is.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Tornado hold is worthless against anyone that can edgeguard you. Megaman gets a worse marth recovery

I wouldn't go that far. Primarily since those two moves have very different applications. Marth wouldn't Dolphin Slash to safely edgeguard or start a mixup. But Tornado Hold's abysmal speed with a hitbox entirely under Mega is certainly a large drawback when it is you returning to the ledge. Beat is only ever that slow on startup, and naturally, you don't want to engage Beat anywhere near or directly below the ledge. If you want to use Tornado Hold, then you have to make sure the opponent never puts you in any recovery situation. And with MM's punishable moveset and bad OoS options, that's just not a viable strategy for this character.

I'm happy to see people still experiment with Tornado Hold. But I'm surprised it's getting a place in four sets. The problem with MM's custom moves is that only one of them is truly not worth using, and that's crash bomber, a default move. You can make a good case for everything else and its hard to accommodate everybody's tastes.

Have we talked about how Beat can be used to travel not just to a ledge, but under a stage entirely to the other side? That's pretty great.

 

[Locke 06]

The problem with MM's custom moves is that only one of them is truly not worth using, and that's crash bomber, a default move.

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[ChopperDave]

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The way I see it, with Tornado Hold you're min-maxing Mega Man to make him absurdly hard to approach safely, and in exchange you get a pretty mediocre recovery option.

It's not a terrible trade to make. IMO, TH plugs a few holes in Mega Man's moveset: it's a relatively safe and effective roll punish, a decent "get off me" move when used OOS, and a nice long-lasting hitbox which makes it ideal for setting traps in concert with MM's other moves. You can't airdodge through a Danger Wrap with TH right behind it.

I've rolled TH in quite a few games and tournaments now, and I've noticed that while I have a harder time getting back to stage safely, I'm also knocked offstage less often. I haven't been keeping a strict count or anything, but I don't feel like I'm getting gimped more often than I would with Rush, and I think that's mostly because TH makes it easier for me to maintain stage control and punish aggression.

 

[Greward]

Crash bomb, while not the best move ever created, is useful and definitely far from being useless lol.

TH is cool but if we're playing a MU where we will get edgeguarded, it's not worth it (aka Sheik). Our recovery becomes very bad.
Beat is not a super good move, but when we need more recovery we have to get it. It's a move that assures us to get back to stage, giving us the option to recover either high or low and letting us go more deep offstage.
There are plenty of matchups where beat is the best recovery. And really, if you are afraid of getting stage spiked, learn to tech.

 

[Locke 06]

The way I see it, with Tornado Hold you're min-maxing Mega Man to make him absurdly hard to approach safely, and in exchange you get a pretty mediocre recovery option.

It's not a terrible trade to make. IMO, TH plugs a few holes in Mega Man's moveset: it's a relatively safe and effective roll punish, a decent "get off me" move when used OOS, and a nice long-lasting hitbox which makes it ideal for setting traps in concert with MM's other moves. You can't airdodge through a Danger Wrap with TH right behind it.

I've rolled TH in quite a few games and tournaments now, and I've noticed that while I have a harder time getting back to stage safely, I'm also knocked offstage less often. I haven't been keeping a strict count or anything, but I don't feel like I'm getting gimped more often than I would with Rush, and I think that's mostly because TH makes it easier for me to maintain stage control and punish aggression.

The dots were to crash bomb being useless.

Tornado hold as a recovery is interesting. I haven't played with it enough (haven't transferred a tornado hold set yet onto my Wii U) but I find it hard to challenge directly. With more experience against it, I could probably figure it out, but it's a good recovery for people who don't know how to deal with it.

 

[ChopperDave]

The dots were to crash bomb being useless.

Tornado hold as a recovery is interesting. I haven't played with it enough (haven't transferred a tornado hold set yet onto my Wii U) but I find it hard to challenge directly. With more experience against it, I could probably figure it out, but it's a good recovery for people who don't know how to deal with it.

Yeah, I quoted the wrong post, haha.

Tornado Hold can definitely be challenged safely with a long enough disjoint. Sword users can whack you out of it if they space their attacks well and avoid drifting into the whirlwind after they connect the hit.

Achieving that spacing is easier said than done in a live match, though. The windbox tends to catch people who try to challenge TH, even with disjoints, and MM rises quickly enough after the mkve starts that it doesn't seem easy to punish on reaction.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

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You should really use your words, child.

Crash bomber is ineffective, and I shouldn't have to explain any reasons why to a Mega Main. It invites too much counter play, cannot be controlled since it involves playing off of what the opponent does with it on, and fulfills no necessary roles in his kit when the opponent properly avoids the blast. Not to mention, it is suicidal to take with you in certain matchups, like Ness and Game & Watch. Compare it to Danger wrap. A move that doesn't ever hurt Mega Man, is harder to avoid, covers the blindspot MM has above and in front of him, and complements the important Uair pressure game you need in order to rack up damage. The fact that it also kills is a nice bonus. Definitely safer to pelt with this than going for a read with Utilt.

Please, I'd love to hear a case for why I should consider crash bomber over a move as consistently useful as Danger Wrap.

 

[Azazel]

lol this quickly became a general customs thread. keep it focused, Up special customs. I say tornado hold wins generally on terms of versatility. Because It combos into Dair. and it is possible to combo jab into tornado hold. Jab is reasonable and all of megamans up specials are gimpable so i don't feel im trading much

 

[Locke 06]

I'm a fan of Rush due to the instant vertical burst. A lot of characters have trouble covering both options and so they have to commit either to edge guarding low or high. The saving from spikes is really a perk that is overstated imo; you shouldn't be getting spiked period. Something I've been trying out, but haven't really successfully implemented, is an anti-trump game. If you rush and grab the ledge as soon as possible, it's pretty easy to trump (if you don't buffer a getup option in time). However, if you delay the ledge grab with down, you can trump someone who tries to trump you. Just a fun thing. Not many of my friends/people I play with, trump as often/frequently as I do, but it's something I think it is somewhat unique to Rush.

Also, Rush vs Villager. Invincibility > Bowling Ball. Instant vertical > slingshot

@ Zapp Branniglenn - I've defended crash bomber enough in the evo sets discussion. Long story short, if you're getting counterplayed too much, you need to counterplay their counterplay. As good as crash bomb cancels are when you have the bomb on you, you're still at a disadvantage at mid-range if you have the bomb stuck on you. Is it optimal in every MU? Probably not. I'd argue neither is Danger Wrap or Ice Slasher.

 

[Azazel]

Im perfectly fine losing Rush Trapping as it isn't that useful a tech.
But it does look pretty darn cool if it every works out

 

[ChopperDave]

Im perfectly fine losing Rush Trapping as it isn't that useful a tech.
But it does look pretty darn cool if it every works out

I've been trying to play around more with dropping Rush on the stage. You can Lemon Drop to land next to him more quickly than people expect (I surprise a lot of people who try to trap my landing), and then use him to Rushbounce Autocancel an aerial, which is fun. He can also be fun to use him OOS to turn the tables if people commit to an aerial approach.

Another fun thing is that, because Rush is always foregrounded, you can use him to hide your attacks somewhat. Unless you're listening for the audio cues it can be hard to know if MM is just standing behind Rush or charging up a smash or firing a SideB or NeutralB.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Lol at crash bomb being "bad".

Your lack of proper shield pressure is not the move's fault. It's a move that makes the opponent react with 1)a rushdown 2)a defensive move or 3) getting hit.

Especially considering all the explosion shield techs and such. Calling it bad is extremely shortsighted

 

[Overswarm]

Crash Bomb is bad.

 

[ForteX]

Of course the guy who starts a thread suggesting that Beat be used over Rush would say Crash Bomb is bad. Show's over everyone, go home, it was a thinly veiled ruseman.

Fenrir has it right - if Crash Bomb attaches to your opponent, their options to avoid it are written in bold letters all over them, it's up to you to figure out which option they'll take and react accordingly. Grant you this: it's a bad choice against faster characters because it has some startup delay and will get shot down.

As for Beat... no. Never. Rush is fast, about a fourth of a second of invincibility on startup, you can get spiked right back into him, and putting him down on the stage is kind of like Pac Man putting down his trampoline except it also sends you as high/higher as if you had fullhopped a doublejump. The only (really pointless) downside to Rush is that you can't drop his undoubtedly heavy robot body onto people.

Gonna just go ahead and say it, MegaMan's alternate recoveries are absolutely terrible.

 

[Azazel]

Rush and Tornado Hold are pretty good, I never did find any amazing perks of beat.

TH > Uair kills floaties at 63%
TH > dair combos
TH is good at covering lots of options if your opponent comes in high, IE if you knock em off stage with a danger warp
Lenient auto-snap

slow start-up, poor potential horizontal recovery

Rush Coil is fast. This is super important
Rush is a useful spring

Beat highest potential recovery.
momentum glitch, helpful if you are spiked lightly
Lenient auto-snap

 

[ForteX]

I don't like Tornado Hold because of how close you seem to have to be in order to actually catch anyone in it. I don't doubt that putting people into it isn't a good idea, but I would rather keep MegaMan's survivability from Rush, and I don't see why Rush wouldn't offer the same, if not better options for covering high recoveries, since it just happens faster.

 

[Funkermonster]

Marth's recovery is pretty good, and super hard to edgeguard. Tornado Hold doesn't even compare to Dolphin Slash or Crescent Slash in terms of how safe it is.

Lol Dolphin and Crescent Slash are both awful recoveries, andMarth's rcovery has always been that way since Melee. Barely grants him any horizontal boosts, doesn't sweetspot the ledge, and he doesn't have much else to rely on. Knock him after his double jump and there's no way he'll make it back after about 60%, its only hard to edgeguard because he has a counter (which will punish you if you get to predictable in your edgeguard attempt) and is otherwise definitely NOT a pretty good recovery. Even if he has Dolphin Jump its still a mediocre recovery since it has no hitbox, you might not get killed but you'll still take damage whenever you have to come back. At least Mega Man can still wall jump and fire crash bombs/danger wraps and metal blades to threaten edgeguarders. I mean Tornado Hold isn't great, but I think that alone makes his recovery still better than anything Marth has got, even if just by a bit.


Anyhoo to be back on topic, Rush has saved my life from being meteor smashed quite a couple of times and I could've died if I didn't have him. Pretty sure Beat could never do that for me (if anything, he'd only make me more vulnerable to meteor smashes, considering how slow he is without a hitbox), and the unique quirk of saving me from meteor smashes sells me on Rush immediately. And though he ain't as effective as 's spring jump, Rush has helped out for onstage offenses too, and its just so damn fun to repeatedly bounce off him to stall projectile users like in For Glory just to troll and aggravate them. For Out of Shield Options and cool gimmicks, I'm okay with Tornado Hold sometimes. Before I start using Beat though, I'd like to see somebody make a video of all the cool stuff he can be useful for, and I'll personally be sticking with Man's Best Friend until then. I know he lets Mega go deeper for edgeguards and you can still duble jump after using him though, so I'm sure he's got some uses.

Worth bringing Beat to mess around at least. But for now, he's a little slow for me and I'd rather not get gimped so easily, so......

 

[CopShowGuy]

Rush is a great dog. I've used Beat against Donkey Kong with all wind moves, but that was about the only time I felt like I needed Beat.

 

[Locke 06]

Rush is a great dog. I've used Beat against Donkey Kong with all wind moves, but that was about the only time I felt like I needed Beat.

Sorry... What? DK has ++ airspeed and strong killing aerials. Beat is good for recovering high, which Storm Punch absolutely destroys by windboxing you off the edge. BAir will destroy you at mid-high %'s or FAir/DAir spikes for using Beat due to the slow startup and high commitment.

Edit: As a DK secondary, I'd welcome the chance to edge guard beat with open arms. From the time you start using Beat to the time you finish, you are literally Duck Hunt.

are characters I run beat with if given the chance.

possibly, but not of Pika is running Heavy Skull Bash. Tink is just to avoid dumb dsmash kills.