Why online mode is poisonous to competitive play

[YELLO]

First off, let me just say that this is not a ranting thread
This is a serious discussion about why online mode for smash is poisonous to competitive play
I wanted to create a thread for a long time on why online mode is a poison to sm4sh

I have been playing smashbros competitively since N64 release
I've been to hundreds of tournaments and won quite a few
I'm not saying I am the best playing, however

Anyway. my first point, which is the most obvious is "lag"
Now anyone who says something like "Oh I never get lag" is probably not a skilled player
All games lag online, even if it is hardly noticeable to you
Furthermore, if you can't tell the game is lagging, I don't advise you play competitively because you clearly lack the skills to notice such fine things

Second, because of lag and the way the game was designed, players will experience what I refer to as "micro lag"
You know, when youre playing an online match and it seems like there is no lag, and you press "jump"
and nothing happens sort of scenario?
Well thats because you have just experienced a "micro" lag
Now when the game lags, your input won't be received, this is certainly common sense for most skilled players
What has just happened is the game has just lagged for a split second, during that exact time the game was supposed to receive your input but didn't

Now smashbros is a game of extreme precision, the slightest failure or mistake can land you in a huge combo or worse, it can cost you to lose a stock
When players are unable to block, jump or move properly it can present a huge annoyance to your competitive edge
Players will compensate for this and develop a completely different play style than that of an unlagged environment

Players will tend to react slower or assume that a certain move has priority when it really doesnt
Plays will start to become dependent on this environment which will slowly chip away at their competitive game
Players will actually start to become "worse" then they were before they started playing online

I highly advise all players to reconsider playing the game online
and if you think youre "good" at for glory mode, you should definitely reconsider your priorities

 

[Scrub255]

The FPS lag is ********. Their is no point at all in playing a fighting game that is designed to run at 60 fps and drops frames.

Its sheer lunacy, its why I refused to buy Tekken Tag Tournament 2 on Wii U, it dropped to 55-58 fps while the PS3 version stays at 60.

Smash is a good game but dont bother with the online. Too much input lag, delay and frame drops for any benefit. It won't improve your play, IMO.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I have to agree. I still play FG because I don't really have alternatives most of the time but what you say is true. I can't even properly play my own character because any lag makes half my techs impossible to execute.

 

[Wintropy]

I appreciate the sentiment, but "poisonous" is a bit much, don't you think?

For some people, this is their only exposure to Smash beyond their own household. Telling them to drop playing online is basically telling them to quit Smash for good. In places like Ireland, where I live, official tournaments do not exist. You either have skilled players living nearby or you play by yourself. Online play may not be a perfect remedy, but it's better than nothing.

 

[outfoxd]

Light sparring isn't a perfect representation of a match but boxers still do it. Still has value as a training tool.

 

[YELLO]

I appreciate the sentiment, but "poisonous" is a bit much, don't you think?

For some people, this is their only exposure to Smash beyond their own household. Telling them to drop playing online is basically telling them to quit Smash for good. In places like Ireland, where I live, official tournaments do not exist. You either have skilled players living nearby or you play by yourself. Online play may not be a perfect remedy, but it's better than nothing.

I'm referring to competitive players
If you don't play competitively than there's no harm playing online

 

[Wintropy]

I'm referring to competitive players
If you don't play competitively than there's no harm playing online

I know.

I'm saying that there are players who want to play competitively, but for whom it's not practically or logistically viable to attend tournaments regularly or play with others of a similarly competitive mindset.

In Ireland, the Smash community is incredibly small. I know plenty of competitive players in my immediate area, but they've had to make do with playing with each-other and honing their skills online. They're fortunate enough to have a humble community of like-minded players in the general vicinity, but a lot of people don't have that luxury. They either have to go out of their way to set up a tournament themselves and hope people will turn up and play with them or rely on the online mode to get their routine practice in.

I think the issue here is not that playing online develops a necessarily toxic mentality or is innately detrimental to the quality of a player's game, but rather that one must be prepared to make allowances for lag and be able to adapt to a lag-free environment all the same. Those same competitive players mentioned earlier have no issues with playing online or in person, they get on just fine either way. So either your thesis statement is fundamentally flawed or I happen to know the kind of Smash wunderkind that these people are. Maybe they do notice the lag and just choose not to let it hamper their game because they're confident that they can adapt online or offline either way?

 

[Alias]

online is my only form of competitive play. I'm in Toronto and I have no idea where tournament events are

 

[Senko Zero]

It's true that lag will always be prominent in any form on on-line play, that will always be true. There are of course enough reasons to make it viable option for competitive practice.

As Wintropy stated, a lot of people don't have those super tight knit close communities to play with. It is in their cases their only option for constant practice in order to keep fresh for some big tournament you travel for (if that is their intention).

There's also the point that while the caliber of on-line players will always be infrequent (as far as For Glory mode goes), it's far better then trying to constantly fight the cpu over and over until you get their pattern down and you learn nothing. You can learn things from the influx of random match-ups you'll play against and can even pick up on things you may have never thought of before.

Finally, for the lag point itself, yes it is true about the potential for "static" you can get in muscle memory from playing in a lag environment. It will happen to some degree. However, playing off-line at a tournament for a while can quickly help wash them out and get you back in the game without lag being present.

Is on-line the most optimal form of competitive practice? No. It can keep you fresh for when the competitions happen. Is it "poisonous"? Hardly.

 

[Heefe]

Yes, online is still really disappointing and as I know Nintendo they probably won't improve it. For glory always gives me laggy matches. It's not as bad when I play with friends but most of the time none of them is online and the for glory 1vs1 is my online choice. Sometimes it's really frustrating when I play with a fast character. You'll notice the lag even more.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yes, online is still really disappointing and as I know Nintendo they probably won't improve it. For glory always gives me laggy matches. It's not as bad when I play with friends but most of the time none of them is online and the for glory 1vs1 is my online choice. Sometimes it's really frustrating when I play with a fast character. You'll notice the lag even more.

If all your matches are laggy then your internet is ****.

 

[Heefe]

If all your matches are laggy then your internet is ****.

No it's not because playing with friends is fine.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

When you have skilled people around you can play offline with, that is better, of course.

But I haven't and since I play online I improved so much it is not even comparable. There are like hundreds of options I would not know about without online play.

 

[Lukingordex]

I have already decided to not play in for glory, that mode is the definition of toxic.

I like to play online with friends though, because most of the time it's the only way I have to keep improving with my character. It's not as bad as you're saying, at least with friends.

 

[Yokoblue]

I dont think what you say is true at all.
Some points are legit but even then it doesnt matter.

A LOT of the pros of today have praticed online for years to fine tune their play. Yes you play with lag, yes you get use to it. Yes some character have more problem because they require more precise input but its still good pratice even for top players. Some techs are really hard to pull online but I would say that everything is possible (with the right connexion).

An advantage that you can have by playing online is the feel of speed when you play offline. Its like training with weights on and then removing them and doing the same exercise.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

No it's not because playing with friends is fine.

And every FG match is laggy? You're one unlucky person. I mean like 60% of my matches have noticeable lag too but I get pretty fluid matches too.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Anyway. my first point, which is the most obvious is "lag"
Now anyone who says something like "Oh I never get lag" is probably not a skilled player
All games lag online, even if it is hardly noticeable to you
Furthermore, if you can't tell the game is lagging, I don't advise you play competitively because you clearly lack the skills to notice such fine things

Second, because of lag and the way the game was designed, players will experience what I refer to as "micro lag"
You know, when youre playing an online match and it seems like there is no lag, and you press "jump"
and nothing happens sort of scenario?
Well thats because you have just experienced a "micro" lag
Now when the game lags, your input won't be received, this is certainly common sense for most skilled players
What has just happened is the game has just lagged for a split second, during that exact time the game was supposed to receive your input but didn't

Now smashbros is a game of extreme precision, the slightest failure or mistake can land you in a huge combo or worse, it can cost you to lose a stock
When players are unable to block, jump or move properly it can present a huge annoyance to your competitive edge
Players will compensate for this and develop a completely different play style than that of an unlagged environment

Players will tend to react slower or assume that a certain move has priority when it really doesnt
Plays will start to become dependent on this environment which will slowly chip away at their competitive game
Players will actually start to become "worse" then they were before they started playing online

I highly advise all players to reconsider playing the game online
and if you think youre "good" at for glory mode, you should definitely reconsider your priorities

I'm not sure how you're getting your data about players becoming worse due to playing online. Players know the difference playing offline compared to online, it's like night and day. I have no problem transitioning from online to offline play. FG mode is definitely not the pinnacle of online competitive play, but it is definitely not as poisonous as you say it is. FG is a cheap fast way to get matched up against someone you'd probably never ever get to meet offline. And lag or no lag, the better player will win more often than not.

Also, FG is for players who do not have that offline option to play others and not the time to complete in online tournaments. Saying to quit FG altogether means to quit playing smash competitively in their eyes.

A much better option for players who favor online play would be playing on ladders. There is where players can test their competitive skill and learn more about character MU in a less "poisonous" environment.

 

[Altea77]

A LOT of the pros of today have praticed online for years to fine tune their play.

No they haven't. This is the first game that offers a competitive online mode, and it's only been out for less than 4 months.

 

[Doruge]

No they haven't. This is the first game that offers a competitive online mode, and it's only been out for less than 4 months.

With Friends exists.

 

[dahuterschuter]

I don't think anyone hosts tourneys online.

Yet...

 

[outfoxd]

I don't think anyone hosts tourneys online.

Yet...

There's several, I believe.

 

[Yokoblue]

There's several, I believe.

I confirm there is quite a lot. Rcently there was a world tournament, some tourneys are almost weekly

 

[Host Change]

I have to disagree with this one. Your statement is partially true in the fact that yes lag messes with tech skill heavy characters, but there's tons of solid practice to be had online that has helped me develop as a player. I go to my local scenes game night every week and show up at all the monthlies and travel to stuff, but I also stream and play online almost every single day. I play with high level players from other regions online such as tristate players I'll likely never get to meet irl, and it's helped me develop a ton as a player since smash 4 came out. I play offline enough that the lag and stuff doesn't mess with my game really, and the experience is helping me a ton. If I never played anyone outside of Alabama, my ceiling of how much I could improve as a player would definitely be a lot lower.

A competitive player that wants to use online as a resource can tell the difference in online/offline and adjust without that much difficulty. That's what I do.

 

[waluigithewalrus]

online is my only form of competitive play. I'm in Toronto and I have no idea where tournament events are

If you go to http://smashboards.com/forums/canada.124/, people list tournaments that are happening in that area. Maybe that'll help you to find them.

 

[HakuryuVision]

"Poisonous", "toxic", you are over generalizing a bit too much.
It's true you won't be able to play and improve to your fullest due to micro-lag,
but as many here stated:

-Some people live in areas where they don't have much competition, and online is their only way to have competitive battles.
-Even if there is the so called "micro-lag", there's still a lot you can learn, and you do improve online.
-There is an upcoming online tournament mode feature, right? (54facts thingy)

The lack of match making makes it hard to find suitable opponents, but for glory can still help you improve, even if it's not to the fullest.
"Poisonous" would mean it's the complete opposite.

 

[Rymi]

"Poisonous", "toxic", you are over generalizing a bit too much.
It's true you won't be able to play and improve to your fullest due to micro-lag,
but as many here stated:

-Some people live in areas where they don't have much competition, and online is their only way to have competitive battles.
-Even if there is the so called "micro-lag", there's still a lot you can learn, and you do improve online.
-There is an upcoming online tournament mode feature, right? (54facts thingy)

The lack of match making makes it hard to find suitable opponents, but for glory can still help you improve, even if it's not to the fullest.
"Poisonous" would mean it's the complete opposite.

although once you get to a certain point fg wont help much anymore

 

[Eghlieght]

The point you try to make is completely marred by the fact that you keep insulting the people you're targeting with it. ''If you think you're good at for glory mode you should reconsider your priorites'' Wow, what a great way to make people see your point of view. I might have paid attention to your point if you weren't such a damn smash elitist. Who are you to tell people how they should play the game? If a competitive player wants to play FG why shouldn't they? Because of micro-lag? I don't think playing through a laggy match online is gonna be detrimental to anyone's game.

 

[Sean²]

I think you can play online if you have extensive experience playing competitively in person. Just play a few friendlies to get used to the lagless feel again. Like riding a bike. If you start out only playing online, you'll do really poorly at your first in-person tournament.

I have experience in both, so I have the ability to adapt to both situations. Lag is always an issue if it is preventing the game from moving smoothly, but when it's relatively non-existent/only lag present is "micro-lag"..."toxic" and "poison" are very heavy words to use.

 

[3870x2]

I play CS:GO online, and have been gaming online since 1998. In short, I will say that if CS:GO can be played competitively online, SSB4 can also.

My reasoning starts with my own experience, and that my only way to practice is online. I have a wired adapter, and can get less than 60ms to either coast, and down to 20ms in the midwest. Going to tournaments, I am doing pretty well, and increasing in skill regularly. I will not dispute your claims that there is lag, as it seems that there has been some artificial lag introduced in the netcode. Sometimes this is done to promote smoothness, but more often than not it is placed as an equilibrium between latent and non latent players. This is good for laggy connections, bad for those who actively monitor their latency to perfection. The lag that I feel in most matches is very limited, and although I can feel it, when I transition to a tournament, it actually seems to help. I can honestly say that I have never missed a combo in the difference, and I actually seem to be more accurate, kind of like training with a weight vest on and taking it off.

Just my experience, obviously everyone's situation is different.

Just a tip: I have been an IT analyst for almost a decade, so it is ingrained in me to monitor and make sure my latency and packet loss is minimal. If you don't already, learn to start managing this, there are so many things you can fix to make your experience better.

If anyone has any questions on managing their latency or where to start, feel free to message me, I only ask that you pass it on, then maybe I will have less blatant laggers that rampage through for glory.

 

[The Slayer]

It can be annoying with lag which can make characters with precise movements a bit tricky or not playable, but I can hardly say the online component of this game is toxic. Not everyone is going to improve from it optimally, but it's very blanket of a statement to say it's toxic to competent/competitive players. There will be people that can adapt to lag and lagless play and it pays off very well in the end. And if anything, laggy game-play teaches you the basic side of adaptability. It may not improve everyone in the long run, but it's better than nothing. And when you say it like that, then you're pretty much telling them you can't play like this to get better and make them stagnate in skill even more so.

Your experience online speak true for some, but will not be the truth for everyone.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

This is interesting because I severely under performed at a tournament this past weekend due to heavy online play. For the past couple of weeks, I've been playing online only because I haven't had anyone offline to play. When I got to the tournament, I ran a few friendlies and instantly noticed a problem. I continuously missed inputs at various moments resulting in damage when I should have punished, me losing a stock, or missing a followup. When the tournament started I still didn't fully shake it and ended up playing worse than usual.

I can agree that online play can mess you up competitively in the long run but it depends on certain factors:

1) How invested are you in offline competitive play?

Playing online is good for learning match ups and general tactics for your character but timing can get messed up due to excessive use of online play (my next point). Coming from a heavy online experience to offline experience might not seem different at first but once you really get into it and start working on your combos, you'll notice things aren't feeling quite right. Timings will be off and inputs will be missed occasionally.

2) How much online are you playing?

Moderate online usage is not bad if you wish to pursue offline competitive play. As long as you supplement it with offline play you should be fine. Even if you're just messing around in training mode. Heavy online playing with little to no offline play is what causes the issue.

tl;dr - Too much online play with little to no offline play can be a hindrance competitively

 

[Orngeblu]

I have the issue of Micro Lag ALL the time in matches where the FPS drops, and I missed plenty of opportunities to punish, or get punished myself because my input didn't come out.

I also don't adapt my playstyle to lag, I play the same regardless, but I can't speak for anyone else. If the frame rate is really bad however, I may opt to just running away and letting them approach me, rarely do I do this, and it's of my own free will.

Most tournaments are hours away from me, no way my family would take me that far out just for a tournament of a game I play.

 

[outfoxd]

I mostly play online, but when I got to a tournament this weekend I found that as long as I could get in some good warmup friendlies I can recalibrate. I would definitely recommend having online be a supplement to an offline regimen if possible, regardless.

 

[Comet Knight]

I can meet you partway on Agreement Street. 75% of my FG matches have minimal lag (my internet is actually very good), and by minimal lag I mean it almost like playing offline. 15% have some lag, in which I notice fairly quickly because I main Villager and even slight lag can throw off my slingshot timing. The last 10% is just, no. Online play has greatly improved my skills as a player though I wish people would play other characters than Mac, Rosalina, Link, and a few others. I want to see more ROB, Weegee, Charizard, and DK. But I'd say it's more toxic to those who have bad internet and those who pick up bad habits very easily (roll spam).

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

online is my only form of competitive play. I'm in Toronto and I have no idea where tournament events are

Oh BTW they are starting Weeklies in Toronto soon . Join the Smash WiiU Ontario Facebook Group.

 

[Cazdon]

I was thinking more along the line of For Glory not allowing Mii Fighters or customs and 2 stocks. I figured this essentially dictated the APEX rule set, which is why I thought it was toxic, but I don't agree completely with your statement. While you make an excellent point about lag, online is always a great place to work on your mindgames on those you've never faced before.

 

[Rymi]

I was thinking more along the line of For Glory not allowing Mii Fighters or customs and 2 stocks. I figured this essentially dictated the APEX rule set, which is why I thought it was toxic, but I don't agree completely with your statement. While you make an excellent point about lag, online is always a great place to work on your mindgames on those you've never faced before.

and you can constantly do it although lag can still affect the mind games its annoying

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

Lag has, will, and will continue to be the bane of EVERY game that features online play. Unless we construct a super highway of internet speeds for everyone, we ain't getting rid of it anytime soon. I personally can't stand the lag I get in some FG matches. It annoys to no end and worse it almost always counts win or lose. If I win, I don't feel like it was a proper win because of the input delay, slow downs, etc. And if I lose, I feel like I was robbed of a fair game. Yes it's annoying, yes it's bull spit, and yes it might lead to pulling hair, but it's sometimes the best thing you can do to practice.

 

[SnappyJ]

Saying that online play is "poisonous" is pretty sensationalist. Just because someone uses online as their main form of competitive training does not make them inherently less competitively viable than someone who does not. The main point, as others have mentioned, is understanding the game mechanics enough as well as your characters to know how to account for online lag. There certainly times when the lag is quite detrimental to play but I know for many, myself included, the online lag is virtually non-existent or at the very least unnoticeable.

 

[derrykrombo]

There's several, I believe.

Where might one sign up to play an online tourney?
just...you know... for science.