Why Isn't Smash 4 Competitive?

[Sorual]

ive heard various people in the smash community say that smash 4 is not as competative as melee and project m. why? is it because of the gae speed? is it because of the lack of advanced techniqes? just wondering. pls answer if you can. id like to know. it my favorite smash game so far and i was hoping that it would be at least a bit popular with the rest o the competative crowd. :/

 

[Tagxy]

ive heard various people in the smash community say that smash 4 is not as competative as melee and project m. why? is it because of the gae speed? is it because of the lack of advanced techniqes? just wondering. pls answer if you can. id like to know. it my favorite smash game so far and i was hoping that it would be at least a bit popular with the rest o the competative crowd. :/

I wouldnt listen to others who complain, most are bothered because of its dissimilarities to melee. It actually gets tons of viewers and competitors at events so if you enjoy the game keep playin!

 

[Dendros]

It is actually very competitive.

The fact that the meta-game isn't made up of sole relying on exploitable glitches (advanced techniques) like in melee.
It also is rid of random tripping and instantaneous recovery form attacks and floatiness filth from brawl

This game (Sm4sh wii u) can finally be played the way it was meant. It requires skill, but you don't have to constantly use glitches to win. you have to read the opponent well and be smart, not just technical. although that matters too.

It is the most competitive game to date

 

[Sun & Moon]

It is competitive, but not for the same reasons as Melee and PM.
This game puts more emphasis in the mental aspects (like spacing, reads, etc), rather than sheer tech skill, at least, this is the impression I get.
The reason most people doubt this game's potencial is that no other smash game achieved the succses and "hype" that Melee and PM got while having a different style of gameplay.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You might rephrase your question because it implies that the game is not by default...

 

[TTYK]

ive heard various people in the smash community say that smash 4 is not as competative as melee and project m. why? is it because of the gae speed? is it because of the lack of advanced techniqes? just wondering. pls answer if you can. id like to know. it my favorite smash game so far and i was hoping that it would be at least a bit popular with the rest o the competative crowd. :/

*spellcheck*

 

[Roko Jono]

It is actually very competitive.

The fact that the meta-game isn't made up of sole relying on exploitable glitches (advanced techniques) like in melee.
It also is rid of random tripping and instantaneous recovery form attacks and floatiness filth from brawl

This game (Sm4sh wii u) can finally be played the way it was meant. It requires skill, but you don't have to constantly use glitches to win. you have to read the opponent well and be smart, not just technical. although that matters too.

It is the most competitive game to date

Please do not generalize Melee as a game where you have to learn to "cheat" (glitch) to win. Its deeper than that and words like that only cause toxicity which is not something I want being a player of both Smash4 and Melee.

Anyways, this game is competitive, but there are people who are extreme who throw away games without giving them a fair chance. To enjoy this game coming from Melee you have to think of this game as a different game. Like playing Tekken to Soul Calibur (2 master race). Same company, different game and playstyles, both fun as their own game. Since they are different games, I won't throw away the other, I will simply play both.

 

[TTYK]

Please do not generalize Melee as a game where you have to learn to "cheat" (glitch) to win. Its deeper than that and words like that only cause toxicity which is not something I want being a player of both Smash4 and Melee.

Anyways, this game is competitive, but there are people who are extreme who throw away games without giving them a fair chance. To enjoy this game coming from Melee you have to think of this game as a different game. Like playing Tekken to Soul Calibur (2 master race). Same company, different game and playstyles, both fun as their own game. Since they are different games, I won't throw away the other, I will simply play both.

Well that technically is true, melee would not have been so fast paced if it were not for those glitches, so it is kind of a glitch/cheat fest, if you were to play the game without the tech you wouldn't even win at a small local tournament.

 

[Roukiske]

Well that technically is true, melee would not have been so fast paced if it were not for those glitches, so it is kind of a glitch/cheat fest, if you were to play the game without the tech you wouldn't even win at a small local tournament.

Though technically everyone has access to these techniques so calling it something like cheats do not make much sense. Many competitive games have techniques that stem off of glitches and such that made a game "better" by the community standards and were kept in due to the feedback.

If you want to play a game competitively you should be playing it by the competitive standards. Why limit yourself to using a pistol in an FPS when they allow you to use an assault rifle? Give or take advanced techniques create a skill gap between players, this skill gap is praised in many different competitive communities. Some people enjoy playing games of that take both a high level of skill and brains all in one, while others want one or the other. Good thing we have a choice in what we play right? I choose to play both games competitively and have fun doing so.

 

[TTYK]

Though technically everyone has access to these techniques so calling it something like cheats do not make much sense. Many competitive games have techniques that stem off of glitches and such that made a game "better" by the community standards and were kept in due to the feedback.

If you want to play a game competitively you should be playing it by the competitive standards. Why limit yourself to using a pistol in an FPS when they allow you to use an assault rifle? Give or take advanced techniques create a skill gap between players, this skill gap is praised in many different competitive communities. Some people enjoy playing games of that take both a high level of skill and brains all in one, while others want one or the other. Good thing we have a choice in what we play right? I choose to play both games competitively and have fun doing so.

Your analogy is terrible, an assault rifle isn't a glitch, and that is something fully intended by the developer for you to use. And sure it is competitive standards, but it still isn't true full skill, it is exploiting a glitch and hardly any mental prowess is needed to excel in competition.

 

[Roukiske]

Oh but I should add my 2 cents about the thread. This game IS competitive and seems to currently have a high player base. If you like the game and want the community to grow, you should keep playing. While the game might seem less flashy than what most wanted, it still has its own set of mechanics that appeal to different kinds of gamers. Mindgames, rushdown, spacing, poking, baits, maximizing potential, etc.

 

[Roukiske]

Your analogy is terrible, an assault rifle isn't a glitch, and that is something fully intended by the developer for you to use. And sure it is competitive standards, but it still isn't true full skill, it is exploiting a glitch and hardly any mental prowess is needed to excel in competition.

IMO I do think Melee needs brains just as much as this game does. I'm curious to know what glitches most people are referring to that turn them off so much.

 

[Xermo]

Your analogy is terrible, an assault rifle isn't a glitch, and that is something fully intended by the developer for you to use. And sure it is competitive standards, but it still isn't true full skill, it is exploiting a glitch and hardly any mental prowess is needed to excel in competition.

Wavedashing isn't a glitch, it's a physics exploit. One that was fully intentional by the developers.
At least get it right if you're going to be ******** about it.

 

[TTYK]

Wavedashing isn't a glitch, it's a physics exploit. One that was fully intentional by the developers.
At least get it right if you're going to be *****ing about it.

You really think sakurai intended wave dashing to be used in that way? My ass. It was probably just as unintentional as the recent c stick issues. An designer overlook. That probably explains why he went all competitive lockdown on brawl.

 

[Xermo]

You really think sakurai intended wave dashing to be used in that way?

I didn't say **** that implied sakurai wanted X thing to be used in Y way by the consumer.
Momentum being carried over from an airdodge into the floor was intentionally programmed. Wavedashing existed because he made it exist. The players are the ones who found use for it.

Keep complaining.

 

[Morbi]

Though technically everyone has access to these techniques so calling it something like cheats do not make much sense. Many competitive games have techniques that stem off of glitches and such that made a game "better" by the community standards and were kept in due to the feedback.

If you want to play a game competitively you should be playing it by the competitive standards. Why limit yourself to using a pistol in an FPS when they allow you to use an assault rifle? Give or take advanced techniques create a skill gap between players, this skill gap is praised in many different competitive communities. Some people enjoy playing games of that take both a high level of skill and brains all in one, while others want one or the other. Good thing we have a choice in what we play right? I choose to play both games competitively and have fun doing so.

That being said, there is a place for not using advanced techniques as well. In your analogy, an assault rifle is not always the best option and sometimes, if used sparingly, the pistol can give you the distinct advantage. Same for Smash, an advanced technique is not always the best option and it is not an instant win tool either. Just thought I would throw that in there.

As per the original post, the game is competitive and it will have a decent life-cycle. There is a lot of adverse opinions on the game, but there are just as many positive thoughts regarding the game as well. It is, as you would say, "popular" with a great portion of competitive crowd. No one expected everyone from Melee and Project M to rush over and convert or anything like that. Smash 4 is reasonably well-received at the moment.

As for the reason of "why." I am not entirely sure, there are a plethora of reasons that do not necessarily objectively correlate with everyone's thoughts. I am sure that the lack of ATs and slower game pace are factors to some, but there is no definitive reason that is unanimously alluded to by the competitive crowd. Your guess is as good as any, really.

 

[Raijinken]

It's plenty competitive. However, it is not as aggressive-dominated nor as technically complex as Melee or PM, which some people mistakenly consider vital traits for a game to be "competitive".

In my opinion (and I think this is shared by many, though I could be wrong), Smash 4 has achieved a nice balance of offensive and defensive validity that is unusual in the series. It augments this variety with wider character viability (something we've not seen in the series, ever), and with (internet-dependent) good online play for practice, and a respectable amount of stage variety. Balance patches are the cherry on top, and all of that together makes this what I personally consider not only the most fun Smash Bros game, but the one with the most competitive potential (from a size-of-scene standpoint) as it accomplishes all of this with extremely few highly technical characters or, as mentioned above, virtually mandatory techniques.

So, to answer the question, "It is competitive, people who say otherwise are using a disappointingly narrow definition of competitive."

 

[Death01]

It's plenty competitive. However, it is not as aggressive-dominated nor as technically complex as Melee or PM, which some people mistakenly consider vital traits for a game to be "competitive".

In my opinion (and I think this is shared by many, though I could be wrong), Smash 4 has achieved a nice balance of offensive and defensive validity that is unusual in the series. It augments this variety with wider character viability (something we've not seen in the series, ever), and with (internet-dependent) good online play for practice, and a respectable amount of stage variety. Balance patches are the cherry on top, and all of that together makes this what I personally consider not only the most fun Smash Bros game, but the one with the most competitive potential (from a size-of-scene standpoint) as it accomplishes all of this with extremely few highly technical characters or, as mentioned above, virtually mandatory techniques.

So, to answer the question, "It is competitive, people who say otherwise are using a disappointingly narrow definition of competitive."

I agree it's competitive I also know with equipment of certain kinds you can wave dash and L Cancel. Although I don't remember specifics.

 

[Raijinken]

I agree it's competitive I also know with equipment of certain kinds you can wave dash and L Cancel. Although I don't remember specifics.

Not sure about wavedashing, but Smooth Lander is basically an automatic L-cancel, reducing the landing lag of all aerials. That said, I don't think we need to be concerned with using equipment for those traits at the moment. Maybe in the future, but for now, the game is, to all appearances, fine without modification (either built-in or otherwise).

 

[Zoa]

Every Smash game is "competitive" by definition. However it doesn't necessarily equate to having the competitive "characteristics" (best way I could word it in my current situation) to keep drawing in crowds of people for the hype of playing/spectating said game in a competitive environment. The metagame for Smash 4 is in its infancy. There's no telling what will happen eventually after the metagame evolves. Just speculation up till this point.

Though my speculation is it doesn't live up to those "characteristics" after the metagame reaches a certain point. As comparison and contrast to other Smash titles, it is very forgiving in many defensive respects similar to Brawl, yet lacks the reward for offensive play after landing a successful punish/approach/mix up/whatever that 64 or Melee provide. Offensive play is one of the most, if not the most, hype moments in fighting games after leading off of a successful read/hit/punish/whatever. With the generally skewed favoritism towards the defensive and recovery options, and lack of reward/safe options for offense, I feel it may very well go the way of Brawl.

 

[Cactusblah]

If people compete in something, it is competitive.

 

[Zoa]

You really think sakurai intended wave dashing to be used in that way? My ***. It was probably just as unintentional as the recent c stick issues. An designer overlook. That probably explains why he went all competitive lockdown on brawl.

http://smashboards.com/threads/disp...-intervew-wavedashing-was-intentional.162416/

The OP has an excerpt from the May 2008 issue of Nintendo Power before it was discontinued. It's an interview from Sakurai saying they left wavedash in the game after noticing it during development.

 

[YELLO]

well when you have a game that has controls that are as unresponsive as the new smash bros, its really hard to make it competitive

 

[HeavyLobster]

ive heard various people in the smash community say that smash 4 is not as competative as melee and project m. why? is it because of the gae speed? is it because of the lack of advanced techniqes? just wondering. pls answer if you can. id like to know. it my favorite smash game so far and i was hoping that it would be at least a bit popular with the rest o the competative crowd. :/

Smash 4 is fine competitively. It has a few aspects that can be a bit annoying at times and it doesn't necessarily appeal to the Melee/Project M wing of the fanbase, but it's a well-balanced game that's sound in its fundamentals.

 

[ShredderN64]

At it's core, any fighting game is 'competitive'. You are trying to win. The difference between Melee and Sm4sh is Melee requires extra advanced techniques if you want to play with the big boys. However, even without those, those same players can probably whoop you at Sm4sh as well. The games have different feels and paces and people are going to take sides. At the end of the day though, whoever can move the fastest, hit the hardest, and outsmart the opponent will win. The ultimate fate of Sm4sh's 'competitive' scene relies on you, the player. Show them why you like it and look good doing it.

 

[Geko[FR]]

too early dude

 

[GeNo-BreaKer]

What is it with people saying that Melee is based around glitches? Do people seriously still think Wavedashing and L Cancelling are glitches? Geez people who are saying that Smash 4 is going to be extremely competitive don't have a clue about the most competitive Smash Bros. game. lol

 

[Raijinken]

What is it with people saying that Melee is based around glitches? Do people seriously still think Wavedashing and L Cancelling are glitches? Geez people who are saying that Smash 4 is going to be extremely competitive don't have a clue about the most competitive Smash Bros. game. lol

L-canceling, not a glitch. Wavedashing, deliberately-unfixed glitch. An "ascended glitch," if you will, is still a glitch, and in this case, it's an ascended glitch that was left as a hidden easter egg.

The more people that play and compete, the more competitive the game is. If Smash4's greater degree of competitive accessibility, as a result of a reduced competitive skill floor through the removal of frame-tight character-biased physics interactions, results in a larger competitor base than, say, Melee, then it will, by that definition, be more competitive than Melee.

Not that Melee won't always have a place in the hearts of people with excellent reflexes and a preference for aggressive play, but just because it's good doesn't make it perfect.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do I think this will be prodictive outside of people turning this into a VS thread?

...no