Fortress
Smash Master
Is it just fantasy?
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Why isnt samus heavier...
- Thread starter Litt
- Start date
CyberMario
Settle It
From my intense MUs and experiments, my opinions on the beams, moves, and overall strategy are identical to both what Fortress and DMG previously stated.
Thus, I agree and support with what they say.
Thus, I agree and support with what they say.
Fortress
Smash Master
I acknowledge that you agree with what I say, and agree with your opinion on said agreement.
ES Lite
The Real Slim Shady
I've always been kind of reluctant to bring up samus's combo structure being buffed, but I see someone else has the same idea. Her Dtilt and Usmash seem like they are a window into what samus could be, even if it is like, the only "combo" samus can bring to the table neutrally. I think they should keep going in that direction.
Uair seems like a step down from Mario's Dair, both of which looking like they should have the same properties. They should make Uair an extension to her aerial combo potential. Why even use it if opponents are thrown away after the last hit? Nair inevitably becomes the better option.
Utilt is reminiscent of melee's, I really dont have a problem with pm Utilt
Dair feels awesome, but I feel they should make raising Dairs through platforms a thing. Make it a bit faster, people should be afraid of that sweeping motion imo.
Dtilt serves as a great combo starter at low percents, but its a little too great. It gets repetitive considering it has better range and priority than her other starters.
Uthrow feels like it should be her preferred throw against spacies and other fast fallers, but Dthrow always seems to be the best option out of all of her throws, which is just boring. Don't get me wrong, I definitely use Uthrow a lot against fox/falco/other heavy people, but there are times where the only thing you can follow up with is either a single aerial or Usmash, which can be followed up by....either a single aerial or Usmash...
Usmash is hilarious. Its awesome but it definitely succumbs to the whole, "I can't go through platforms like every other Usmash I aspire to be"
Her bomb also taunts me to no end. Some people might fall for bomb->Dair, but I assure you no one I usually play with will fall for that. There are never a time where I combo with it, which makes me incredibly sad. If there is ONE thing they could buff for Samus, I say its her bomb. Make it so it can always lead into a dair in the air or on the ground, and I'll feel content with Samus.
I want to keep typing, but I'll shut up for now. If pmbr made me in charge of samus I'd make her sexy as fuark
Samus is not a combo character. She is a zoner. The point is not to deal huge combos, but to make your opponent flustered and force mistakes that allow her to get them offstage, which is the situation in which Samus deals her guaranteed damage. For instance, making Uair a combo move would remove the missile trap it currently gives Samus. This forces her opponent to jump or fall into the missile. For a character who's all about poking and limiting movement options, this is a perfect tool.
You're not talking about a simple buff to Samus, you're talking about changing the direction of the character's design paradigm. Doing this without regard for the broader implications on her playstyle would be disastrous, and has been shown to be with plenty of other characters. Most of the time its this exact same problem, where zoning characters are inexplicably given strong combo options off their zoning tools. It demonstrates a flagrant disregard for the fact that there are more ways to play Melee than combocombocombo rushdownrushdownrushdown, and that some people actually like to play that way.
If you want to buff Samus by tightening up the gaps in her zone (a way to counter full jumps without needing to sh nair would be divine--hey! you could do that by buffing plasma usmash!), that's perfectly fine. But sacrificing her poking and trap game for the sake of turning her into another flavor-of-the-week easy-mode rushdown character is absolutely not an acceptable way to improve the character.
You're not talking about a simple buff to Samus, you're talking about changing the direction of the character's design paradigm. Doing this without regard for the broader implications on her playstyle would be disastrous, and has been shown to be with plenty of other characters. Most of the time its this exact same problem, where zoning characters are inexplicably given strong combo options off their zoning tools. It demonstrates a flagrant disregard for the fact that there are more ways to play Melee than combocombocombo rushdownrushdownrushdown, and that some people actually like to play that way.
If you want to buff Samus by tightening up the gaps in her zone (a way to counter full jumps without needing to sh nair would be divine--hey! you could do that by buffing plasma usmash!), that's perfectly fine. But sacrificing her poking and trap game for the sake of turning her into another flavor-of-the-week easy-mode rushdown character is absolutely not an acceptable way to improve the character.
Woah now, who's talking about combos off zoning tools? We're not stupid Link Boomerang lol.
It's fine for Samus to be a zoner. However, it's much harder to just buff her zoning and have it be meaningful across the cast. Traditionally, when the devs buff projectiles or zoning, it REALLY bones lesser characters without helping as much vs better characters. Like if you gave her that buffed Plasma Usmash to cover more, that's not gonna ****in help vs Sheik ya know? All that will do is bone the poor characters who already struggle approaching her. Taking away flaws that a character has in zoning, just leads to more flow charting and less display of actual skill.
It's fine for Samus to be a zoner. However, it's much harder to just buff her zoning and have it be meaningful across the cast. Traditionally, when the devs buff projectiles or zoning, it REALLY bones lesser characters without helping as much vs better characters. Like if you gave her that buffed Plasma Usmash to cover more, that's not gonna ****in help vs Sheik ya know? All that will do is bone the poor characters who already struggle approaching her. Taking away flaws that a character has in zoning, just leads to more flow charting and less display of actual skill.
If you want to give Samus something to deal with Sheik, you need a way to counteract dash attack, but that would have a worse impact on the overall game than giving Samus a counter for full jump jump-ins from characters like Fox and Falcon, or for effectively countering Jiggs's ability to sit above and in front of Samus with total impunity. Giving Samus a reason to use her usmash in neutral also gives her a reason not to cover her front, which is what gives so many characters trouble against her in the first place. If Samus gets baited into a usmash, it is in fact still punishable, but the punishment isn't necessarily as bad as it would be if she was stuck in her floaty short-hop animation. It's not as huge a buff as making her able to combo better.
And if we're going to talk about boning lesser characters, let's talk about the impact of improving characters' combo games a little bit. Very often, susceptibility to combos is a pretty hefty factor in making bad characters worse. You want to take characters who already struggle against Samus's zone, and give her options to deal more damage off of successful conversions? In general, this is why I disagree with buffing combos. The characters who are more likely to take stray hits on account of having a trade-based playstyle (usually zoners, also grapplers) are going to get eaten alive if "better combos" is your answer to buffing everyone.
And if we're going to talk about boning lesser characters, let's talk about the impact of improving characters' combo games a little bit. Very often, susceptibility to combos is a pretty hefty factor in making bad characters worse. You want to take characters who already struggle against Samus's zone, and give her options to deal more damage off of successful conversions? In general, this is why I disagree with buffing combos. The characters who are more likely to take stray hits on account of having a trade-based playstyle (usually zoners, also grapplers) are going to get eaten alive if "better combos" is your answer to buffing everyone.
Fortress
Smash Master
That's not the answer for buffing everyone. I think that's the answer for Samus though. I'm literally only talking about changing 1, maybe 2 of her moves to be slightly better at vertical comboing (well that and possibly better Uthrow?) This is not the rebirth of Lucas/Mario/Wolf/etc crazy combo + shield pressure character.
It's less than optimal, but you already get an Usmash that's sort of made for people way above you with Ice form. Smack Falcon and Fox out of the skies with that.
It's less than optimal, but you already get an Usmash that's sort of made for people way above you with Ice form. Smack Falcon and Fox out of the skies with that.
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Fortress
Smash Master
Then you don't switch to Ice U-smash until those characters are above you and coming back down on you. There's a solution.
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
I don't know what exactly you mean by wanting plasma U-Smash buffed. If you mean for it to link better and have bigger hitboxes than Melee's usmash, it already does.
Also, for those of you wanting to axe Ice stance just because it may not be as good/useful as Plasma, remember that Ice stance is an option--you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
Also, for those of you wanting to axe Ice stance just because it may not be as good/useful as Plasma, remember that Ice stance is an option--you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
Fortress
Smash Master
I was going to say, not sure what good removing Ice Beam would even do for Samus. I don't get why there are zealots in favor of Ice Beam being removed. It doesn't hurt her to have it.
CyberMario
Settle It
I love the Ice beam because it is my direct counter to Marth, Roy, and Mewtwo. That ice Fair and ice Usmash works wonders. I'm sure o develop more uses for it for people who chooses other characters.
Have you ever had a Falcon full jump dair at you? You won't have time to taunt, then usmash. You will get comboed to death for trying.
I'd rather just see usmash be a single hit move. Bigger hitboxes and better linking notwithstanding, I don't trust the move all that much because of its multi-hit, stationary nature. Ice usmash isn't really close to what I would have done to usmash, either, but it's closer than plasma usmash. I really don't understand why Ice Beam mode was implemented if Plasma Beam could have just been buffed in the places where Ice Beam is better. No one has ever been able to give me a sufficient explanation as to what valid design goals are met by the mechanic.
And no, I don't count, "it's sooooo coooooool" as a valid design goal.
DJ _ICE
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2013
- Messages
- 179
Interesting. How exactly does it counter those characters?
Some people might want her regular Fair/Usmash if they were tweaked a bit (which Usmash certainly was). Ice form was a way to give you different versions of the move, without needing to patch back and forth. I prefer having the Ice system as opposed to changing those moves only, since you get a broader appeal and an easier time comparing the tradeoffs. If you don't like the minor improvements or direction her old moves are at, you can switch. If you hate the newer moves, you can change. It's not a perfect system, but it's a decent way to explore other ideas without completely overhauling how something was from Melee. Imagine if they only went the Ice direction, or created some hashed up Frankenmonster combination of the two together. It would be so damn ugly.
Fortress
Smash Master
I said as he's trying to come down on you, i.e "when you've got the advantage", read as: not in the middle of a combo. Just switch to it at kill percent, you don't need to combo Falcon at 120%.
Fortress
Smash Master
I seem to recall that most Samus players wanted a full revamp on Samus's usmash before she was revealed. A single hit explosion overhead was popular, if I recall. You're right that most people didn't have a problem with plasma fair. I don't have a problem with plasma fair. As an air to air, it was really, really good. Ice fair is only better because it tries to fill so many roles, and largely succeeds. The fact that so few of the Ice beam changes were called for simply calls the decision further into question.
Your argument for the Ice system in general would be a great argument if this were a test-bed Samus, but it's not. This is a public release of Samus, and at least when it came out, it was billed as out of beta. No one is testing the character. They are full-on competing with her. Your argument is essentially that Samus is incomplete, when I feel like this release version was billed as a complete release. I don't buy that.
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CyberMario
Settle It
The ice beam changes up the air game for Samus largely for the better. That what I believe makes ice the good counter.
For example, HugS' Samus gets bodied hard by a pro marth. This is largely because Marth's fair, air game, and overall reach is farther and hits harder than Samus's. Samus would have to have the top notch ground game and precise movement to avoid all the tippers and potentially deadly combos.
The ice fair has reach almost equal to Marth and comes out almost as fast. This gives Samus the edge needed and is especially helpful against mid-percent Marth. If a ice fair hits a mid-percent Marth, then Marth is almost always off the stage. A Marth off the stage is a battle half won, because Samus with good edge guarding/reading is in control of Marth's approach while he remains on the defence to recover.
I find the ice Usmash works well as a anti Air move against Marth. This further convinces your opponent to remain on the ground, where Samus holds the slight upper hand.
The Roy's and Mewtwo's I play against usually have the fights in the air. And I almost always have the ice beam out to give the edge needed.
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Now that I agree with. Half of the Ice stuff feels outright inferior or not worth the downside of losing the function normal form has.
The point though is that by having Ice form, the general public gets a better idea of alternatives that might work, without releasing only one version and getting it blatantly wrong. If you take creative license to change Samus (which most of us would probably fundamentally change stuff like Usmash), in an attempt to make her better, why not have a backup plan in case your idea doesn't pan out very well? If we only stuck with Plasma mode, they probably wouldn't have had the balls to redo Usmash or Fair to that kind of degree. I get the argument about this being release Samus instead of beta test Samus, but I see no harm in relabeling a useful testing feature/alternative as an additional gameplay choice. Especially since most of us do not have insight into the actual development process: if having two forms helps shape Samus in the future to be made better, then I defend that over just one form with devs probably not risking changes as much.
On another note, just because she is in a public release, doesn't mean her build is final. Look at MK for example: I would be disgusted to think that his current Dair is unworthy of being patched and overhauled. If she needs to go back to one form exclusive for any reason, a patch can come along and do so. If they decide to buff Ice form or people like the two form function, it can easily stay instead of 1-2 patches later "HEY GUIZE WE THOUGHT THIS NEW ICE **** WOULD BE COOL, GO USE IT"
OK I JUST HAVE TO STEP IN HERE... Cyber please shut the hell up, HugS does not get bodied hard by a pro marth.... and it was not because any of the options you listed, just having samus's zair from brawl makes the samus marth MU even and just the fact you listed all that crap shows how little you know, espeically because no one acknowledged it.
ES Lite
The Real Slim Shady
Honestly, ice form is cool and all, but why don't they just release another metroid character that takes on that moveset? CyberMario said it helps against Marth Roy and Mewtwo but I've honestly never had the sober thought of being in ice form entirely. Wouldn't it be cool if there was an actual character that had more than just Usmash and Fair?
Fortress
Smash Master
Are you actually going to leave now, or keep throwing fits? Because you've said this like three times now.
CyberMario
Settle It
I wish Zair makes the Marth MU even. It helps yeah, but I don't believe it's even. Also, just because no one acknowledged my opinion doesn't make it invalid. It's just my playstyle. There is no one right way of playing, it just, the ice beam gives me an easier time and I enjoy using it. I would have never even considered using Samus otherwise.
Hmmm lets see.
*Youtubes HugS vs. Marth*
....
*First 5 videos of HugS are loses against different Marths*
Yeeaaaaa-no. He gets bodied. Maybe not hard, but still, loses in the top 5 videos? Without question Marth>Samus.
Check the tier list bro... and look at the past 5 matches of Hugs vs Marth...
I did not say I am leaving the board, I am giving up discussion logic or trying to help anyone on here. Learn to read you scrub
I can certainly respect not taking any form of a character as the "final form." In the DLC era, where annual patches are just the way everyone does things, it's a fact of life. I don't know that I quite see that as a defense of using patches as a way to experiment if the intended perception is that a release is out of beta. Even in fighting games that see frequent patches, location tests are done for the experimentation. Final patches are typically intended to be left to sit for some time before they're messed with, and stand as more authoritative than experimental forms.
I dunno. It is what it is. I just don't much care for the decision at all.
literally the funniest thing i have ever read.
I feel ice needs either something more motivating to get me to change to it, or have a quicker change time.
The only time i usually change to it is if ive hit someone offstage, and i taunt cancel to fire ice homing missels (usually on stages like dreamland with large bounds).
Hahha thank you sir, anyway, as for the ice moveset, its good for comboing floaties at low percents ground game wise, (like if you hit both hits of the fsmash, it can lead into an ice fair, or ice fsmash), but I personally was using the Ice moveset completely wrong for a while and believe it was useless like yourself. Despite its high priority, samus is a floaty character and its not safe to openly attack with, its much better for punishes and counter attack that you already know are coming. Basically when you are in the ice moveset, you want to antagonize your opponent with zairs, and missiles, while retreating away in the crawl, and then punish when they approach with the ice moveset.
So basically, samus is a wall in ice mode, but a tank in fire mode. Walls don't attack, they just hit you are when you run into them.
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I found it funny due to the pure irony (in liquid form nonetheless) that eeked out of the bottom of my monitor. =p
I get frustrated with ice, only because i keep forcing myself to use it (then lose) in an attempt to find more ways to use it.
As you said though, it changes her style, and im yet to find the niche that it fits for me.
I just have to get out of my fire habits, and learn new ice ones.
speaking of the crawl/boost ball, im really new to brawl mech (ie, played brawl for 2 months when it first came out, then didnt touch it. only got into PM when 3.0 came out (im PAL, didnt know about getting the iso workaround)
whats the best way to execute the crawl in a pinch? i keep trying to 1/8th circle, but it's inconsistent for me.
probably my timing,
ive found i can WDforward into a boostball pretty easily though.
I get frustrated with ice, only because i keep forcing myself to use it (then lose) in an attempt to find more ways to use it.
As you said though, it changes her style, and im yet to find the niche that it fits for me.
I just have to get out of my fire habits, and learn new ice ones.
speaking of the crawl/boost ball, im really new to brawl mech (ie, played brawl for 2 months when it first came out, then didnt touch it. only got into PM when 3.0 came out (im PAL, didnt know about getting the iso workaround)
whats the best way to execute the crawl in a pinch? i keep trying to 1/8th circle, but it's inconsistent for me.
probably my timing,
ive found i can WDforward into a boostball pretty easily though.
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Virum
Smash Ace
Random off-topic point but did you really need to post three times in a row within less than 10 minutes. There is an edit button you know.
Yeah I know lol, I didn't really but I already private messaged the guy and told him to back off already and let it drop so we wouldn't spam up the thread, and he decided it was a good idea to continue it, so posting 3 times seemed effective way of shutting him down. As for the crawl in a pinch, i tend to do run forward into a half circle downward, kinda like a moonwalk, but keep holding back so its like a run into retreating crawl to minimize the hurtboxes for samus and keep her moving away from the attack
pizzacato
Smash Ace
A plasma Usmash buff, in my opinion, would benefit from a superiorly faster sweep or just a single hit.
Ice Usmash should have the uppercut cover more overhead.
Ice Usmash should have the uppercut cover more overhead.