Why is zelda a good choice to counter falco

[pastaboy]

ok not counter but why is zelda tough match-up for falco?

 

[Mith_]

Falco is mid weight I think so he's sorta easy to kill. Zelda can reflect lasers his Nayru and Din's Fire as an edgeguard.

Then again Falco is pretty fast and can sorta combo Zelda pretty easy. I say it would be 60:40 Falco.

 

[Iris]

Chain-grabs can be escaped. Other than that, maybe general Falco tactics fall prey to Zelda's natural strengths. Nayru's Love has always been a good weapon against approaching spacies.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

falco's air game is rubbish, so he needs to be very afraid of LKs and Uairs. Any charcter who doesn't have a good defense against LKs has a lot of problems here.

NL causes problems for lasers meaning Falco can't just camp and force an approach... zelda can't force one from him either, but at least it keeps him from camping.

Falco dies quick. He's light-weight and has a poor recovery.

Falco has a lot of trouble with Zelda's superior range and priority.

Zelda can LK out of falco's chaingrab. I'm not sure if she can always do this, or if he has to slightly mess up his timing, but, regardless, she can do it, and it's awful for him.

Zelda is hard to grab in the first place.

due to Zelda's range & Priority, faclo has trouble getting close enough to land a decisive blow. Zelda does not.

Quite simply, falco's game is "meh". It relies on his nifty tricks like chain throws, laser camping and DACUS to elevate him to his top teir position. Falco's tricks are harder to apply against Zelda than against most others and, quite simply, his core gameplay is inferior to zelda's.

Even so, she doesn't directly have anything especially devestating to falco, so it' not a huge advantage.

I'd say no more than 60:40 Zelda, but it's not falcos advantage in any way.

 

[sniperworm]

I agree with Sonic that Falco more trouble with Zelda because many of his usual tricks don't work (as well).

Falco's aerials really are poor at stopping Zelda from kicking him which means he can die really fast and is always a little anxious in air-to-air combat against Zelda. Zelda is also tough to grab for the most, which helps to minimize the damage Falco can do with grabs.

Falco also does have a really hard time landing a kill move on Zelda unless she makes a mistake.

There are some points where I disagree with him though:

While NL does stop Falco from camping, but it's also a free invitation for him to get closer while you're still having fun spinning (or he could punish Zelda if you Naryu's and he doesn't shoot a laser).

Falco does have problems with Zelda's superior range and priority, however, Zelda has problems with Falco's quick poking moves (which means that she'll probably get hit a lot). Most of Zelda's moves with superior range and priority are also significantly slower on startup and/or cooldown then Falco's moves, which means that you'll have to swing early a lot (or risk being punished), which means that Falco can react accordingly.

It's also difficult to control the match because of Falco's overB. It's very fast, can be cancelled to vary distance and lag, and does decent damage (like 7% or something like that) considering that Zelda has a really hard time doing anything to stop it.

Falco can be hit by a sweetspotted Fair if he attempts to chaingrab Zelda for more than like 2 throws (from 0%). However, Falcos know this and will use SH Dairs instead and follow up accordingly.

So on the whole, Falco controls the tempo of the match. He'll likely hit Zelda more often than Zelda hits him and he can probably hit with multiple hits with each opportunity. However, when Zelda does hit Falco, he'll feel it. So all-in-all, since Falco has no good way to kill Zelda and Zelda can kill him pretty quick, it can't be too much in his favor. I'd say it's probably somewhere around even (55:45 Falco would be my take).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

While NL does stop Falco from camping, but it's also a free invitation for him to get closer while you're still having fun spinning (or he could punish Zelda if you Naryu's and he doesn't shoot a laser).

so let him get closer. I don't see how that's a big problem, it just means that you persuaded him to approach.

Falco does have problems with Zelda's superior range and priority, however, Zelda has problems with Falco's quick poking moves (which means that she'll probably get hit a lot). Most of Zelda's moves with superior range and priority are also significantly slower on startup and/or cooldown then Falco's moves, which means that you'll have to swing early a lot (or risk being punished), which means that Falco can react accordingly.

but, also, a lot of her moves AREN'T a lot slower: Dtilt, jab, dash attack and Usmash are all fast and all have a lot of priority, range or both.

It's also difficult to control the match because of Falco's overB. It's very fast, can be cancelled to vary distance and lag, and does decent damage (like 7% or something like that) considering that Zelda has a really hard time doing anything to stop it.

I disagree here. Side B has an obvious startup animation. if Falco uses it, all zelda has to do is know the timing and she can smack falco out of it with half of her repetoir. Usmash, Fsmash and Nayrus even do it so well that she barely needs to time it. Plus, there's no penalty for sheilding it and, even if he cancels it, zelda shold recover from her attack quickly enough that she's in no worse a position after the attack than she was before.

Falco can be hit by a sweetspotted Fair if he attempts to chaingrab Zelda for more than like 2 throws (from 0%). However, Falcos know this and will use SH Dairs instead and follow up accordingly.

Still, Zelda severely limits his ability to chain throw... 2 throws don't really do much and a LK to the face is SEVERELY undesirable.

So on the whole, Falco controls the tempo of the match. He'll likely hit Zelda more often than Zelda hits him and he can probably hit with multiple hits with each opportunity. However, when Zelda does hit Falco, he'll feel it. So all-in-all, since Falco has no good way to kill Zelda and Zelda can kill him pretty quick, it can't be too much in his favor. I'd say it's probably somewhere around even (55:45 Falco would be my take).

I disagree with this too. Falco controls the tempo of the match IF YOU LET HIM. and, yes, if you are letting him, then it might seem like he has a slight advantage. Honestly the problem a lot of zeldas have with ANY matchup is that they aren't active enough. If zelda grows some balls and starts taking the reins, it becomes VERY hard for falco since, with proper spacing, there isn't much falco can do against Zelda. It's unlikely that she'll maintain this spacing, but at that spacing, she can be pretty fearsome. even if falco gets close, nayru's, Dtilt, jab and Dsmash are reliable GTFO or follow up moves, and, in addition, SH nair or LKs can work too, but they are less reliable... even Farore's has some applications for getting away at least.

so, yes, zelda has tools to control the matchup. I'd like to see them used more. Regardless, even with said tools, falco has enough poking ability that he' going to get into zelda eventually so it's not a hard counter sort of matchup. it's zelda's advantage, but that's all.

 

[pastaboy]

woaw thnx alot you guys, rlllllly helpful, you guys rly know your character.

and i almost died laughing to the zelda players need to grow some balls joke

 

[SinkingHigher]

It's easier to predict where an enemy will end up after a hit with heavier characters. This makes it easier to time/execute sweetspots.

 

[RedSnowman]

Just replying to everything said earlier... what if Falco punishes NL with his forward B? He doesn't have high run speed so getting close to Zelda doesn't do much, I agree with sonic, but if he F+B'd he'd land a free hit, knock Zelda in the air and this can make it a little tricky. Or does NL outprioritize Falco's forward B?

 

[-Mars-]

Just replying to everything said earlier... what if Falco punishes NL with his forward B? He doesn't have high run speed so getting close to Zelda doesn't do much, I agree with sonic, but if he F+B'd he'd land a free hit, knock Zelda in the air and this can make it a little tricky. Or does NL outprioritize Falco's forward B?

Most all moves outprioritize the phantasm, you just have to time it right. Also I think the hitbox for phantasm is actually behind Falco, so even if it has priority over your move, you just need to hit the front of Falco before the hitbox.

 

[Lingy]

If you use NL as Falco uses phantasm, the Falco will get caught in the NL. So yes, NL has higher priority.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Just replying to everything said earlier... what if Falco punishes NL with his forward B? He doesn't have high run speed so getting close to Zelda doesn't do much, I agree with sonic, but if he F+B'd he'd land a free hit, knock Zelda in the air and this can make it a little tricky. Or does NL outprioritize Falco's forward B?

it does. it might depend on spacing. but it does. and at the very least, invincibility might make him just go through you.

But, like I said, lingering hitboxes from NL, Fsmash and Usmash make ripping him out of phantasm much easier than it should be

 

[RedSnowman]

Oh... thanks guys. Guess I was wrong about that lol. Well yeah it does seem like Zelda has a lot of advantages and a Falco will have to play a good game to capitalize. Another thing I just thought of is falco really cannot go out to pressure/punish Zelda's recovery due to his own lack of recovery.

 

[-Mars-]

Oh... thanks guys. Guess I was wrong about that lol. Well yeah it does seem like Zelda has a lot of advantages and a Falco will have to play a good game to capitalize. Another thing I just thought of is falco really cannot go out to pressure/punish Zelda's recovery due to his own lack of recovery.

Exactly, he's pretty much forced to shoot lasers while we recover. He can try the ocassional spike and bair is pretty good, but they're both easy to see coming.

 

[sniperworm]

so let him get closer. I don't see how that's a big problem, it just means that you persuaded him to approach.

but, also, a lot of her moves AREN'T a lot slower: Dtilt, jab, dash attack and Usmash are all fast and all have a lot of priority, range or both.

I disagree here. Side B has an obvious startup animation. if Falco uses it, all zelda has to do is know the timing and she can smack falco out of it with half of her repetoir. Usmash, Fsmash and Nayrus even do it so well that she barely needs to time it. Plus, there's no penalty for sheilding it and, even if he cancels it, zelda shold recover from her attack quickly enough that she's in no worse a position after the attack than she was before.

Still, Zelda severely limits his ability to chain throw... 2 throws don't really do much and a LK to the face is SEVERELY undesirable.

I disagree with this too. Falco controls the tempo of the match IF YOU LET HIM. and, yes, if you are letting him, then it might seem like he has a slight advantage. Honestly the problem a lot of zeldas have with ANY matchup is that they aren't active enough. If zelda grows some balls and starts taking the reins, it becomes VERY hard for falco since, with proper spacing, there isn't much falco can do against Zelda. It's unlikely that she'll maintain this spacing, but at that spacing, she can be pretty fearsome. even if falco gets close, nayru's, Dtilt, jab and Dsmash are reliable GTFO or follow up moves, and, in addition, SH nair or LKs can work too, but they are less reliable... even Farore's has some applications for getting away at least.

so, yes, zelda has tools to control the matchup. I'd like to see them used more. Regardless, even with said tools, falco has enough poking ability that he' going to get into zelda eventually so it's not a hard counter sort of matchup. it's zelda's advantage, but that's all.

Okay, so apparently I'm not playing correctly against Falco (I was hoping that this was the case since I keep losing to Falco). But I do have a few questions about your comments (sorry, I don't know how to do that quoting multiple things in one post so bear with me).

1) Um, I'll agree that Usmash and Dsmash are very fast and Dtilt and running attack are pretty fast (jab is not fast, I'm sorry, not compared to Falco) but all are punishable if blocked which is what usually happens since Falco has so little lag. How do you usually hit Falco with them without having them blocked? I try to shield drop them but it never seems fast enough (do I need to perfect shield to do them?).

2) Falco's sideB does have the startup, but it's not enough to hit him with a Fsmash or neutral B unless you're predicting it and start before he does (in which case he'll just cancel). Usmash sounds like a good idea though, I can't believe I never tried it. Does it straight up beat it out or does it trade sometimes? On a side note, I've never, ever stopped Falco's sideB with Zelda's Fsmash or neutralB even when he went directly into the attack (and trust me I've tried a lot). I'm not saying it isn't possible because it should be, but it sure seems like you'd need to time it pretty well.

3) Zelda limits his ability to chain throw, well, yes if you mean him repeatedly Dthrowing. Does Zelda stop him from using SH Dair after Dthrow into jabs/throws/tech chasing/etc., um, no. The only thing that has helped to save me here is Naryu's, but if he blocks that I'm in a world of trouble all over again. Advice on how to deal with this would be appreciated.

4) I still feel Falco controls the match. He moves much better and faster (with DACUS and sideB especially) and he zones better with lasers and reflector (which is actually a good spacing tool against Zelda). I've tried being aggressive, but it's difficult to be in the range where Zelda has control over Falco (as you said). However, (like you said) it's pretty easy for Falco to escape from that "zone" where Zelda is in control. For Zelda, on the other hand, she has to rely on hitting Falco to escape once he closes in (which is a lot more difficult since she is inherently slower and all her fast moves are punishable (pretty easily too, from what I've seen, since we're assuming they're being used as GTFO moves and most likely aren't properly spaced). I think what you've shown is that Zelda has the tools to be in control, not that she will be in control (which is a big difference). But feel free to prove me wrong.

Other things I'd like to mention:

Does Falco's running speed really matter when it comes to punishing Naryu's? He can punish with sideB (I'm pretty sure Naryu's won't protect our heads) or DACUS (which is much faster than his running speed).

Oh and about Falco's not being able to go out and get us while we're recovering(except with lasers), ordinarily that would be good for us, except that Zelda's only method of recovery has horrendous startup and lasers are fast, which means that lasers are really good for disrupting it and forcing us to recover from lower than the stage level which usually means we'll get hit again when we reappear (or edgehogged if we aim for the edge).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

1) Um, I'll agree that Usmash and Dsmash are very fast and Dtilt and running attack are pretty fast (jab is not fast, I'm sorry, not compared to Falco) but all are punishable if blocked which is what usually happens since Falco has so little lag. How do you usually hit Falco with them without having them blocked? I try to shield drop them but it never seems fast enough (do I need to perfect shield to do them?).

jab's speed is quite impressive for its range. you don't pull it out when falco is right on top of you. Dtilt is not particularly punishable if blocked. AND, you were talking about using moves in response to falco's quick moves. I'm just sayin you have options. so what if they can be sheilded, you were talking about using them to counter falco's pokes. he can't sheild and poke at the same time.

2) Falco's sideB does have the startup, but it's not enough to hit him with a Fsmash or neutral B unless you're predicting it and start before he does (in which case he'll just cancel). Usmash sounds like a good idea though, I can't believe I never tried it. Does it straight up beat it out or does it trade sometimes? On a side note, I've never, ever stopped Falco's sideB with Zelda's Fsmash or neutralB even when he went directly into the attack (and trust me I've tried a lot). I'm not saying it isn't possible because it should be, but it sure seems like you'd need to time it pretty well.

yes. the startup time is sufficient unless you are preoccupied with another attack. you just need to work on your timing.

3) Zelda limits his ability to chain throw, well, yes if you mean him repeatedly Dthrowing. Does Zelda stop him from using SH Dair after Dthrow into jabs/throws/tech chasing/etc., um, no. The only thing that has helped to save me here is Naryu's, but if he blocks that I'm in a world of trouble all over again. Advice on how to deal with this would be appreciated.

this is still an advantage son. Against most charcters falco has a chainthrow which will result in unavoidable damage. Zelda makes the damage avoidable for herself, plain and simple. it may turn into a game of "predict me" for the two, but that's better than a game of "let falco have his way with me while I flail helplessly"

4) I still feel Falco controls the match. He moves much better and faster (with DACUS and sideB especially) and he zones better with lasers and reflector (which is actually a good spacing tool against Zelda). I've tried being aggressive, but it's difficult to be in the range where Zelda has control over Falco (as you said). However, (like you said) it's pretty easy for Falco to escape from that "zone" where Zelda is in control. For Zelda, on the other hand, she has to rely on hitting Falco to escape once he closes in (which is a lot more difficult since she is inherently slower and all her fast moves are punishable (pretty easily too, from what I've seen, since we're assuming they're being used as GTFO moves and most likely aren't properly spaced). I think what you've shown is that Zelda has the tools to be in control, not that she will be in control (which is a big difference). But feel free to prove me wrong.

DACUS is nice, but it's not game changing, especially since it has trouble getting through the defenses of a grounded zelda. About him zoning better.... that's all on the player. you said it yourself, she has the tools. who's fault is it if the tools aren't being used? And, yes, Falco can punish zelda, but zelda can also punish falco.... and harder.

Other things I'd like to mention:

Does Falco's running speed really matter when it comes to punishing Naryu's? He can punish with sideB (I'm pretty sure Naryu's won't protect our heads) or DACUS (which is much faster than his running speed).

Oh and about Falco's not being able to go out and get us while we're recovering(except with lasers), ordinarily that would be good for us, except that Zelda's only method of recovery has horrendous startup and lasers are fast, which means that lasers are really good for disrupting it and forcing us to recover from lower than the stage level which usually means we'll get hit again when we reappear (or edgehogged if we aim for the edge).

there are ways to minimize the detriment caused by lasers to our recovery, but, yes, they suck. They don't destroy our recovery, but they can cause problems if we are in a bad position.

 

[sniperworm]

Okay some more questions to your responses (and thanks for the help so far, I hope the number of questions I'm asking shows how much I appreciate the help).

1) If he pokes and we poke at the same time, won't he win? His jab is crazy fast and has good range, can anything Zelda has outspeed it?

2) So you're saying that if he starts the sideB and I react with a Fsmash I can hit him? Do I have to do it on frame 1 of his side B or do I have some leeway? How far away do I have to be?

3) Okay, I suppose it is an advantage that Falco only gets some guaranteed damage against Zelda instead of a lot. My question still stands though, is using Naryu's the way to go or should I be using a different move?

4) I said he has better mobility with the DACUS, not he'll be randomly throwing it out to try and hit us with it. It allows him to punish mistakes from greater distances than normal and escape at faster speeds than normal.

5) Is Falco's better zoning really due to just the player? I still feel that while Zelda has ways to get to where she wants to be, Falco has more effective ways of keeping Zelda out of that zone (whether it's by stopping Zelda from getting there or moving closer or farther so he's in control again). The way I see it is that there's a relatively small area where Zelda is far more effective than Falco. However, if Zelda is anywhere else, Falco has the advantage. Now since that area is with respect to where Falco is (meaning it's not static), the fact that Falco moves faster than Zelda has a lot of impact on how much control Zelda actually has. Add to that the fact that Falco has the advantage while she's not in that area near Falco and I find it hard to believe that Zelda is in control of the match. She definitely has the advantage if you can get into her "zone" and Falco has nowhere to go, but isn't that more his mistake than a direct result from us (since he was in control before Zelda got there).

Perhaps the conflict here lies in where we feel Zelda has the advantage? When both Falco and Zelda are on the ground, I feel that Zelda has the advantage when she can reach Falco but Falco can't reach her with his jab. When Falco is on the ground and Zelda's in the air, I think she has the advantage while she's within Fair/Bair sweetspot range (since he probably won't risk getting kicked). When Falco is in the air and Zelda's on the ground, I think that Zelda has the advantage if Falco has to land near her. When both are in the air, I feel that Zelda has the advantage if she's within Fair/Bair sweetspot range (this includes FFing or air jumping into one) or if Falco is significantly higher in the air than Zelda and he's directly above Zelda(so she threatens with a Uair if he tries a Dair or threatens to land before him thus creating the air to ground advantage for Zelda). As you can see, there isn't that big of an area where Zelda is in control while Falco's on the ground (which is probably why I feel that Falco controls, so if you can show me where you think Zelda has the advantage (with reasons for why of course) then I have no doubt that I'll be able to believe that Zelda is in control (since you're zones are probably larger than mine).