"Why is this stage banned" (Wii U stages)

[webbedspace]

I thought I'd make a thread gathering all of the reasons a particular stage would be banned from tournaments, so that everyone is on the same page w/r/t why a stage is or isn't fair enough. Now, I'm not familiar with every argument ever waged against a stage, and there are some holes in my awareness, but I believe these should be the most commonly cited ban reasons.

(I should mention that I do not necessarily endorse or justify any of the reasons listed.)

Name|Picture|Reason
Final Destination|

|The blinding background flash at about 1 minute in has been considered distracting, and many reason that since so little is lost by substituting this stage for Ω Palutena's Temple, Ω Gaur Plains or Ω Battlefield , there's no reason not to do it.
Big Battlefield|

|Too big - KOs from the centre of the stage are difficult, and evasive play is overly rewarded. Legal for 4v4.
Mario Galaxy|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. Without them, it would be fine. (Legal for 2v2 or 4v4?) Mushroom Kingdom U |

|The random urchins are strong (can KO at <130%) and appear with little warning. The random icicles are telegraphed by a droplet, but the camera doesn't expand to show the droplet if it's just offscreen. Additionally, while Nabbit's bag can be escaped by mashing, he can fall off the stage whilst bagging a fighter . Nuff said.
Mario Circuit |

|The Shy Guy karts appear infrequently, but in some transformations they take obstructive routes (such as directly above the fighting platform ). Additionally, the transformation that creates a ceiling is regarded poorly, and even worse is that when the ceiling is in motion, a struck player may rebound between it and the platform, taking multiple 12% hits. (Some have noted that teching the in-motion ceiling doesn't stop you from taking a hit. Others point out that if you tech the platform but not the ceiling, you can escape the rebound easily.)
Delfino Plaza|

|Unlike in Brawl, the top structures of the touring platform vanish immediately as it finishes its descent, causing any fighter still standing on it to suddenly fall, negating their momentum and leaving them briefly vulnerable.
Luigi's Mansion|

|Though the areas with solid ceilings can be briefly destroyed, very high damage can still be racked up while they exist, which over-rewards controlling them.
Mario Circuit (Brawl)|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. Additionally, the Shy Guy karts, while appearing infrequently, occupy a large area of the stage when they appear (either the fighting platform itself or the air directly above it.)
Woolly World |

|The rocket creates a ceiling whenever blast-lines are present, but its height makes it less of an issue than other stages' ceilings. It's been speculated that its layout overly punishes bad aerial manoeuvrability, and that the lack of a central platform on which to conduct the neutral game discourages aggression and approaches.
Yoshi's Island (Melee)|

|Walk-off blast line to the right. Also, the yellow blocks create low ceilings, although they can be briefly removed. The pit in the centre also disrupts the neutral game to some degree.
Gamer |

|Since the entire deal with Mom is that she appears with little warning, she is a difficult hazard to predict, and getting caught can lead to a KO at <60%. Additionally, the random layouts can include ceilings, and while it's possible to "re-roll" the layout by quitting the match and re-entering, it is very, very time-consuming.
Jungle Hijinxs|

| (Not sure - but it's probably due to its total size. Need a research thread to confirm.)
Kongo Jungle 64|

|It's been speculated that the barrel can be endlessly camped by a flighty character hopping in, shooting out while it's not below the main stage, then floating back in before the opponent can approach. However, this hasn't yet been widely accepted. (Legal for 2v2 and 4v4)
75m|

|Permanent walk-off blast line to the left. Additionally, the surfeit of lower platforms permits very easy circle-camping. And, the springing jacks, while infrequent and not very dangerous, occupy the most significant part of the stage when present.
Skyloft ( NOT Skyworld) )|

|Sometimes the background structures can hit the fighters if they stand on the edge of the touring platform, or are recovering offstage. And, on one route a damaging ceiling momentarily appears.
Temple|

|Low ceilings, large size, circle-camping potential, etc. (Legal for 4v4?)
Bridge of Eldin|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. Also, the temporary pit is very large and obstructs many approaches. Possibly the only stage whose Ω form is basically an upgrade over the original in terms of layout.
Pyrosphere|

|Capturing Ridley provides an immediate, unassailable advantage. (Not sure if the minor enemies are also a problem...)
Norfair|

|The lava in all of its forms is not overly hard to avoid, but appears very frequently, to the point where stage control is constantly ceded to it, and poor mobility is punished.
The Great Cave Offensive|

|Prolific low ceilings, large size, circle-camping potential, and permanent walk-offs. The danger zones, while an interesting alternative to blast-lines, nonetheless tend to result in arbitrary KOs based on whoever happens to hit 100% damage first.
Halberd|

|Unlike the other hazards, the claw's target choice is poorly telegraphed, and, unlike the laser, it can't be directed by the target to potentially make an obstacle for the opponent. Also, some believe the bomb's blast radius has poor visual cues.
Orbital Gate Assault |

|Offstage or airborne players are frequently threatened by the sudden transformations: the forcefield will ram all players to the left of the missile's nose, and the Arwings that appear after the missile is destroyed are placed high on screen, meaning low-altitude players could miss them entirely. (Some have argued that, since all of these events are 100% predetermined, memorisation can help players minimise the influence of these events.) A few people feel that the damage-over-time effects of the missile exhaust are also a problem.
Lylat Cruise|

|Unlike in Brawl (?), the tilting of the stage can sometimes over-adjust the placement of fighters, causing them to briefly enter an airborne state and cancelling their actions.
Kalos Pokemon League |

|The metal pool, and its provided power-up, is regarded poorly even though it appears non-randomly. The Registeel hazard , while very rare and telegraphed, nonetheless attacks the entire platform and much of the air above. Additionally, the red flame bursts , while non-random, are very strong against offstage players. Other hazards appear frequently, but are much better telegraphed. Also, after each transformation, the platforms vertically retreat to the blast lines, and unlike Prism Tower, these can SD players on top of them.
Pokémon Stadium 2|

|It's argued that the Electric transformation over-rewards control of the stage centre and hinders the neutral game (though some contest that focusing on aerial combat during the transformation counteracts this). It's also argued that the Flying transformation, while less severe than Brawl, nonetheless severely slows down aerial combat (though some contest that focusing on ground combat during the transformation counteracts this).
Port Town Aero Dive|

|The F-Zero racers are very damaging and tend to take up a large amount of stage territory, making them quite hard to evade. Without them, this would be OK.
Onett|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. Without them, this would be OK. ( Legal for 4v4? )
Coliseum|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. Without them, this would be a very good stage. (Legal for 2v2?)
Castle Siege|

|Some argue that the second transformation has circle-camping potential. However, this isn't yet widely accepted.
Flat Zone X|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. The Lion guards and Helmet tools are fairly damaging and occupy the middle of the stage for a considerable amount of time.
Palutena's Temple|

|Low ceilings, large size, circle-camping potential, etc.
Skyworld ( NOT Skyloft )|

|The platforms, though breakable, nonetheless create low ceilings.
Garden of Hope|

|The Aristocrab, while telegraphed, is nonetheless fairly large and hard to avoid for fighters with bad aerial mobility. Also, fighters could get trapped inside the pot if it's reassembled around them(?)
Boxing Ring|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. Also, the ceiling lights allow aerial characters a powerful camping position, even though other characters can bounce up using the ropes.
Town and City|

|After each transformation, the platforms horizontally retreat to the blast lines, and may carry off pratfallen characters into an unwarranted SD. This is, however, regarded as very unlikely to occur even by accident.
Wii Fit Studio|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines. (Legal for 2v2?)
Gaur Plain|

|Permanent walk-off blast lines - that, and the lack of any central platform severely curtails the neutral game. Metal Face is also periodically present, and is fairly dangerous, but his movement is limited.
Duck Hunt|

|Some argue that the treetop provides circle-camping potential for a select few characters - though video evidence of this has yet to surface. Wrecking Crew |

|Getting trapped in a barrel (which is hard to avoid if you're occupying the topmost platform while an explosion has occurred) is a severe punishment, giving the opponent the opportunity to inflict massive damage. Also, bomb explosions, while fairly weak and inconsequential, nonetheless are not uncommon and reward being the first to detonate them. Were both of those removed, this stage would be OK. (Legal for 2v2?)
Pilotwings|

|Yellow Plane: the engines' position, coupled with the inability to drop through the plane's wings, produce nigh-unassailable camping positions . Red Plane: the cockpit wall badly hinders the neutral game. Also, the planes deterministically fly through archways or under a bridge that can heavily damage offstage players, and momentarily form damaging ceilings.
Wuhu Island |

|It's argued that some transformations, such as the volcano and the rocks, lack a clear central platform and hinder the neutral game. Also, the moving boat's prow, while only briefly dangerous, is nonetheless capable of instantly KOing opponents who land in the water. (Legal for 2v2?) Windy Hill Zone |

|The springs, which appear at one or both fixed locations randomly, are dangerous hazards that can instantly KO if touched from the wrong angle. Also, some argue (though others contest this) that the stage is barely too big for singles. Legal for 2v2 and 4v4?
Wily Castle|

|The Yellow Devil obstructs the centre of the stage, and (more importantly) overly punishes opponents who misfortunately do not land the final strike on it. Without it, this stage would be OK.
Pac-Land|

|Almost the entire stage features scrolling walk-off blast lines, which vastly over-reward throwing the opponent in the opposite direction of scrolling.

Any further comments about these are welcome. Links to footage justifying particular claims is also gratefully accepted.

 

[Raijinken]

We've yet to prove conclusively that Walkoffs are still a gameplay-degrading issue now that chaingrabs are removed, but while we're mentioning that FD is too shiny and so on, might as well.

I'd also add that the balloons in Smashville and Town&City can obstruct projectiles, including PK Thunder, potentially heavily screwing Ness players. Also, Onett's walls and platform positions function much like the Pilotwings fuselage on the red plane, and provide easy teching spots that can generally nullify knockback when camped.

 

[ATH_]

Stages like Kongo Jungle 64, Lylat Cruise, and FD are a matter of preference though. I like what this is doing though.

Some characters actually do good on stages like Lylat and not because of potentially forcing in a situation, but because of the general layout and them not having a tough time recovering on it.

I personally prefer having the Palutena's Temple Clause in my ruleset, which states something along the lines of "If either player claims to find the Final Destination Background intrusive, then Omega Palutena's Temple replaces Final Destination for the Duration of that match."

Kongo Jungle is mainly speculation as to whether or not you could camp the barrel, but if we find a particular character is able to do this (Likely Jigglypuff, Pit/Dark Pit, or any other character with lots of jumps and good recovery) then it would likely be handled similarly to Meta Knight on Delfino/Halberd. Where that character may not play on that stage, so any game with said character in question has that stage auto-stricken for the duration of the match. Which I personally believe is fair.

What we're left with for potential stages is:
FD/Omega Palutena's Temple
Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Kongo Jungle
Duck Hunt

And then for stages that may be agreed upon but have less of a chance:
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2

And honestly, I'm okay with playing on any of these stages. Personally I'm against Duck Hunt's grass patches and odd Tree, but it doesn't mean I won't play on it or host a tournament with it.

The super strong MAYBES of the list:
Luigi's Mansion
Woolly World

These two will be found in rare tournaments, and I'm unsure about them.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Honestly I don't buy the excuses for FD, the walk offs (now that chaingrabbing is out), Duck Hunt, Garden of Hope, Castle Siege, Pokémon Stadium 2, Halberd, Lylat, Mario Galaxy, Delfino, and even Kongo Jungle is just speculation.
I think it's a bit too early to be banning so many stages without at least allowing them as counterpicks...

 

[ATH_]

Honestly I don't buy the excuses for FD, the walk offs (now that chaingrabbing is out), Duck Hunt, Garden of Hope, Castle Siege, Pokémon Stadium 2, Halberd, Lylat, Mario Galaxy, Delfino, and even Kongo Jungle is just speculation.
I think it's a bit too early to be banning so many stages without at least allowing them as counterpicks...

Read the paragraph at the beginning of the post, please. This is all hypothetical reasons why a stage would be banned.

 

[Raijinken]

Honestly I don't buy the excuses for FD, the walk offs (now that chaingrabbing is out), Duck Hunt, Garden of Hope, Castle Siege, Pokémon Stadium 2, Halberd, Lylat, Mario Galaxy, Delfino, and even Kongo Jungle is just speculation.
I think it's a bit too early to be banning so many stages without at least allowing them as counterpicks...

I can understand Garden as it is large, glitchy (respawning bridge can trap people til it breaks, etc), and the crab is a lethal or near-lethal hazard at about the same percents as F-Zero machines, but telegraphed a bit more.

I really hate Mario Galaxy because not all projectiles are treated equally and it's visually confusing to figure out the side blastlines.

What I've done in my group is take some stages with generally-liked designs but other issues, and then convert them into something more appetizing via the stage builder (for instance, I took Brinstar's features and built a stage I call Crateria). No telling if customs will ever catch on in a tournament, but with how capable the stage builder is now, it's worth a shot at least at smaller events.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Registeel "attacking the whole stage" is a bit of an overstatement. It attacks the whole GROUND, and the flying blades last like 1.5 seconds and are quite easy to avoid.

Also, "there's no reason not to do it." is too a biased commentary for an informative thread.

 

[webbedspace]

Also, "there's no reason not to do it." is too a biased commentary for an informative thread.[/color]

That isn't my opinion - it is part of the sentence fragment beginning with "Many reason that..."

 

[Locke 06]

That isn't my opinion - it is part of the sentence fragment beginning with "Many reason that..."

If we're gonna go grammar police on that sentence, a comma before "since" will clean it up nicely.

 

[Balgorxz]

I'd rather have all these than playing on smashville with that terrible fighting music forever
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2

 

[Pazx]

I don't like this thread and I don't like the arbitrary decision you made not to include Battlefield and Smashville on the list.

 

[webbedspace]

Even though I'm aware of some Japanese tournaments banning them, I'm not yet aware of the rationale for it (though I could hazard guesses that Smashville's platform is sometimes too close to the blast lines...?) Everything else I've posted is a line of reasoning I've either heard a TO personally provide, or seen someone argue in the stage discussion thread.

 

[Jebus244]

Wow, this is dumb. Some stages that are shown to be banned I thought were legal. Like town and city? What, that map is great! Also, walk off blast zones on those maps are not the problem to me, it's the lack of an edge that would make me ban those maps, like Mario galaxy.

Should be legal if players were better...
Wuhu
Mario circuit
Duck Hunt
Pilot wings
Town and city
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino
Castle Siege
pokemon stadium 2
Skyloft

Banning stages for anti-camping reasons doesn't make sense on stages that transform. In melee, there was a transformation on pokemon stadium where the players usually just waited to transform again... But it was still a good stage. I can see Mario circuit being an issue, but I've never been KO'ed by a kart, I think it's worth keeping in if a player wants to pick it. These stages are being banned because players are not taking time to learn them. I think that goes against the spirit of competitive play. Players should be expected to learn the stages and be able to avoid the minor hazards and adapt to certain transitions.

 

[PND]

@ Jebus244 This isn't a list of banned stages. This is a list of arguments that people have made against certain stages.

 

[webbedspace]

Wow, this is dumb. Some stages that are shown to be banned I thought were legal. Like town and city? What, that map is great!

To be fair, very few tournaments actually accept all of these reasons as valid. (I only know of one tournament that specifically uses the Delfino reason as a ban justification.) The Town & City reason is more commonly cited as a reason to relegate it to a counterpick (see: Apex ruleset) where others would see it as a starter.

Also, walk off blast zones on those maps are not the problem to me, it's the lack of an edge that would make me ban those maps, like Mario galaxy.

Technically speaking, those are the same thing, right? Walk-off implies no ledge... unless you mean that, for instance, Gaur Plain 3DS should be legal because it does have a ledge somewhere.

 

[Jebus244]

@ Jebus244 This isn't a list of banned stages. This is a list of arguments that people have made against certain stages.

Oooooh. Fwhew! Misleading title is misleading.

 

[Pazx]

The reason I dislike this thread is because it will inevitably hurt the chances of some perfectly good stages becoming legal. We should be looking for reasons to legalise Skyloft, PS2, Wuhu Island, not the other way around. On top of that, your "arguments" for banning stages like Duck Hunt, Town and City and Lylat are pathetic and whether they are yours or you are repeating things you have heard is irrelevant: your argument is incredibly weak and you are perpetuating negative stereotypes about stages that are detrimental to the health and development of the game.. You've already confused some people as to the legality of stages in this thread alone: @ Jebus244 I'm using you as an example and also looking to explain that this thread is not an accurate representation of what stages are or should be banned.

Wow, this is dumb. Some stages that are shown to be banned I thought were legal. Like town and city? What, that map is great! Also, walk off blast zones on those maps are not the problem to me, it's the lack of an edge that would make me ban those maps, like Mario galaxy.

Should be legal if players were better...
Wuhu
Mario circuit
Duck Hunt
Pilot wings
Town and city
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino
Castle Siege
pokemon stadium 2
Skyloft

Banning stages for anti-camping reasons doesn't make sense on stages that transform. In melee, there was a transformation on pokemon stadium where the players usually just waited to transform again... But it was still a good stage. I can see Mario circuit being an issue, but I've never been KO'ed by a kart, I think it's worth keeping in if a player wants to pick it. These stages are being banned because players are not taking time to learn them. I think that goes against the spirit of competitive play. Players should be expected to learn the stages and be able to avoid the minor hazards and adapt to certain transitions.

The following stages are almost always legal, this thread is highlighting potential reasoning for them to be banned (which I disagree with):

Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Town and City
Skyloft
Castle Siege
Delfino
Kongo Jungle

And the iffy stages are:
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wuhu Island
Norfair
Woolly World
Windy Hill

Everything outside of this list is kinda irrelevant.

 

[Jebus244]

Technically speaking, those are the same thing, right? Walk-off implies no ledge... unless you mean that, for instance, Gaur Plain 3DS should be legal because it does have a ledge somewhere.

But it's made out to be the reason those stages are banned are the walk off blast zone, and not the lack of an edge. And yes, if it wasn't for the giant stage hazard of Gaur Plain, I would think it should be legal. Just like certain transformations of WuHu have walk off blast zones. The lack of an edge affects gameplay way more than walk off blast zones.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Small correction, the platforms in Wii Fit Studio can't kill players as they rise

 

[mega4000]

two things to consider.
Final destination flash light plus white or yellow luma has ruined me combos against luma.
Duck hunt dog plus green luma is very difficult see.
Worst of this is that luma camoflage on purpouse (on duck hunt dog green stars are more frequent while in fd white appears more)

 

[Balgorxz]

regular FD should be banned because Palutena's Temple and G Plains are prettier, have better music and don't have the annoying flash light, there is no reason to keep regular FD.

 

[T0MMY]

TL;DR: Every stage "should be banned" because at least one person cries that it "should be banned".

This is an awesome thread, by the way, love the collected info - thanks for posting it!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Do we have to do the Pokemon Stadium 2 thing again? I mean, really? I'm not making those threads again. I just won't. I'll just namesearch "PS2" and call anyone who wants it banned a moron.

 

[webbedspace]

The reason I dislike this thread is because it will inevitably hurt the chances of some perfectly good stages becoming legal. We should be looking for reasons to legalise Skyloft, PS2, Wuhu Island, not the other way around.

Well, "looking for reasons to legalise" is a point of view that implicitly accepts that stages are "guilty until proven innocent", which I think very few actually believe. I think it's overwhelmingly accepted that a stage cannot be banned without a reason, even if the reason is highly disputable. The point of this thread is to put these reasons in the spotlight, so that they can either be accepted (and discussion can move on) or disputed in an informed fashion.

The omissions from the post should also be noted: some people have claimed that Windy Hill is banned in several areas because of the gravity curvature, but I haven't seen anyone in control of stage lists actually cite that as a reason for banning in its own right - i.e. no one thinks that Windy Hill would still be banned if the springs were removed and size reduced, but the curvature remained. I hope I've only listed reasons that actually have traction, so that discussion can be focused on them.

 

[Jebus244]

Well, "looking for reasons to legalise" is a point of view that implicitly accepts that stages are "guilty until proven innocent", which I think very few actually believe. I think it's overwhelmingly accepted that a stage cannot be banned without a reason, even if the reason is highly disputable. The point of this thread is to put these reasons in the spotlight, so that they can either be accepted (and discussion can move on) or disputed in an informed fashion.

The omissions from the post should also be noted: some people have claimed that Windy Hill is banned in several areas because of the gravity curvature, but I haven't seen anyone in control of stage lists actually cite that as a reason for banning in its own right - i.e. no one thinks that Windy Hill would still be banned if the springs were removed and size reduced, but the curvature remained. I hope I've only listed reasons that actually have traction, so that discussion can be focused on them.

See, I like this idea. Stages shouldn't be banned without legitimate reason, and the reasons should be discussed and agreed upon to some degree. IMO, a stage should only be banned if the hazards KO at percents lower than 225-250, or disable the player in way that can be taken advantage of for combos, like Kalos. Also stages without edges, since edge play is so crucial to smash strategy.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd mind the gravity in Windy less if it applied to all projectiles, but it's inconsistent (and says so in the tips).

As for walkoffs/ledges, edgeplay is vital for most, but not all characters. I still feel like without chaingrabs, we should run some walkoffs on occasion, just to see what happens. Buff to Little Mac at the very least.

 

[Asdioh]

Maybe this thread should have just been a post in the Stage Analysis & Discussion thread, but there seems to be quite a bit of vitriol in here toward the OP for just trying to get this info out :O

Anyway I'll throw out some notes, and opinions (which are correct, since they're mine)


First off, Final Destination. I love this version of FD more than any previous version, but the white transition, and even the fireballs that keep flying at the screen, do detract from the experience. I have seen characters and projectiles become invisible during the white flash. More importantly, I've heard a player with partial colorblindness claim that he can't see anything during parts of the stage. Who am I to argue with that? We have rules for team colors during teams because of colorblind reasons, I see no reason to do the same for possibly the most visually-irritating stage in Smash history. Possible competitor is Reset Bomb Forest, which also has a lovely pure-white transition, but in glorious 30 FPS.


Ok, stage legality criteria. I don't know if competitive smash brothers has a definitive list of stage aspects that make a stage banworthy or not. So when I think about what stages should or shouldn't be legal, the criteria that come to mind are:

#1. "Am I primarily fighting my opponent, or am I fighting the stage?"

When I have to spend more time worrying about 5-Volt in Gamer than about my opponent, or Nabbit or random pufferfish in Mushroom Kingdom U, I'd classify that as "fighting the stage." When the stage is more threatening than the other fighter, I see a problem.


#2. "How abusable can this stage get in a worst-case scenario, which wouldn't be possible in our "normal" stage selection?"

If we're playing on 75M (worst stage in smash history btw, why did they bring it back over Pirate Ship?) or Gaur Plains, and I get a stock lead, and my victory is at stake in a major tournament, you can bet I'm running away until time runs out. (The timer is a separate issue here, @ T0MMY ). You can't really accuse me of stalling, since all I'm doing is running around on perfectly legal stage ground, that we're both capable of touching.
Try something like this on Smashville, and you will see that you can't abuse it. You have limited room to run away, which means your opponent will constantly be cornering you and getting opportunities to punish.


Arguable criteria #3: "Does this stage add anything of value?"

Is the ability to fight in the background of Jungle Hijinxs, where your characters are miniscule, or the ability to fight Ridley in Pyrosphere, really what we're testing in our competition?
I don't really know how to word this criteria well, but basically I would never see people playing on Orbital Gate Assault and think to myself "Boy, that sure is an ideal stage to find out who the better fighter is."


If there's an actual list of criteria that people have already agreed on, please show me.


Permanent walkoffs! People keep citing the removal of chaingrabs as a good reason to try out walkoff stages, as if chaingrabs were the biggest, or only, problem.

-In this game, the biggest problem is criteria number 2 above. If I have 130% and I get a stock lead against Captain Falcon, I'm just gonna waltz on over to the side of the stage. There is an area between the visible portion of the stage and the magnifying glass portion, where you cannot see me, and I will not take magnifying glass damage. You can't see what I'm doing, and you're forced to approach me. Even if I were to step into magnifying glass range, you still can't tell exactly where I am, since the magnifying glass does not give any indicators of distance. It's low risk for me, since I'm already in kill percent. But it's high reward! Because I have Rage on my side, and if you make one misstep against me, your invisible opponent, I will grab you and KO you at 0%.
The closest thing to an exception that exists to this problem is Wii Fit Studio, since the mirrors on this stage let you see a bit past where the camera normally allows, but there are still hidden areas. Plus, the mirrors are not always there.

That alone makes permanent walkoffs unjustifiable, in my eyes. But there are a couple other things.

-The lack of offstage area makes certain moves functionally useless. Whether it's a default or a custom special, if it's one of those "gives you recovery but no damage" moves, it now serves no purpose. Rosalina's recovery, Mario's Super Jump, etc. Are there any stages in the game, besides walkoffs, that eliminate moves from characters' arsenals?

-Characters were almost certainly balanced with their recoveries in mind. This one should be obvious, considering the existence of Little mac. Then there's Diddy Kong, whose primary weakness is always touted as "just gimp him." This becomes impossible on walkoffs. And again, the custom moves that give you "more distance but no hitbox" were designed to take away strengths and weaknesses simultaneously. With walkoffs, there is suddenly no reason for Link to not take his Shocking Spin, etc.

-Although I'm unsure if the ledge stealing mechanic was added in Smash 4 because of 8 player Smash shenanigans, or for legitimate competitive reasons, the fact is that ledge mechanics were changed in this game. Although this may be because of tradition, ledge and offstage play are a big, huge part of competitive Smash. The new ledge mechanics arguably create more options, entertainment, hype, etc. When you take that away, you're left with walkoffs. Walkoffs have not been changed in Smash 4, they still make characters literally invisible, as they wait off-camera for their opponent to mess up and die.

Do walkoffs really add anything of value?

I'd argue that walkoff stages were made for casual play. As much attention as Nintendo has given to the competitive aspect of this game, the fact remains that even though Smash 4 is a legitimate competitive fighting game when played that way, it is also a fun party game. Some stages are not designed for competitive play, but it's up to us to decide which ones are most fitting, since it's not always clear at first glance.

I could go into more detail about which stages I think should be legal etc, but maybe later.

 

[Balgorxz]

we should find a good mix between variety and value, I'm aware some stages might be better to test peoples skill but that doesn't mean we are only going to play in smashville because of this and when they change stages no one knows what to do anymore because people learn how to play in those stages instead of just knowing how to play.

yeah 75m is terrible I would pay a 20 bucks dlc to remove it from the game

 

[Raijinken]

we should find a good mix between variety and value, I'm aware some stages might be better to test peoples skill but that doesn't mean we are only going to play in smashville because of this and when they change stages no one knows what to do anymore because people learn how to play in those stages instead of just knowing how to play.

yeah 75m is terrible I would pay a 20 bucks dlc to remove it from the game

You can add a lot of terrain variety with custom stages, but it's hard to convince people to try that while we currently can't share the stages directly.

 

[Piford]

I agree that this thread is bad, mostly because of the name not the data in it. It should really be called "minor annoyances or aspects of stages you need to learn." Although some of these do seem poorly said or contain not the actual reason for it to be banned. Stuff like Temple and Palutena's Temple don't really have low ceilings its just that the stage is so huge that the top portion is pretty close to the upper blastzone. Also low ceilings are not really a reason to ban a stage, I would say that actually add a layer of strategy to counterpicking.

One of the biggest issue I see is Skyworld, who's reason doesn't even make sense, let alone is the actual reason its banned. I'm pretty sure Skyworld actually has a high ceiling (unless that's only in PM). The main reason it's banned is that when the blocks are there, they create a huge cave of life and makes it very easy to circle and stationary camp. When they are removed, they remove the grabbable ledges from the stage making it very easy to gimp characters with poor recoveries.

Some of these probably shouldn't even be on here, like Castle Siege how the only reason is that some people think that it can be circle camped, but it can't.

The following stages add enough that any minor issues with them are completely outweighed by what they offer.

Final Destination (Or Omega Gaur Plains)
Battlefield
Skyloft
Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Town and City
Halberd
Castle Siege
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt

Then these stages are more arguable but still good

Mario Circuit
Windy Hill Zone

Then these are even more arguable, but can still work

Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Wii Fit Studio

And then everything else is worse.

 

[Reaper Talk]

I think it's funny how FD is the only stage banned because of the background

 

[ぱみゅ]

Just FYI, given Asdioh commented about it, colorblind rules were unheard of during Brawl's lifetime. Setting Lucario/Sonic in blue teams was a pretty obscure rule, and it wasn't even claimed to be in place because of colorblindness, but because some people COULD get confused with the constant movement (and Sonic and Lucario were pretty common, there were few others that weren't clear enough either, but people didn't really care about them).
/snip

I propose to change the thread's title to something less affirmative.

 

[Sonsa]

I've never had trouble with FD's background, but my eyes are pretty good so going to an omega is fine I guess, you can always gentlemenly agree on normal FD if neither of you are bothered.

But what I really wanna discuss is Pokemon Stadium 2. Even I find it annoying, but much like Pokemon Stadium 1 in Melee, everything is telegraphed, none of the stage causes damage or knockback, and tripping (thank goodness) isnt a huge problem with the ice transformation anymore.
I don't know, I could be wrong, but I think it deserves a lot more experimentation first. A lot of stages need more experimentation before we outright ban them, the game is only about 3 months old.

 

[Gidy]

Windy Hill Zone and Bramble Blast should be legal for teams.

 

[Pazx]

Windy Hill Zone and Bramble Blast should be legal for teams.

Do you mean Jungle Hijinx? If so, absolutely not.

 

[Asdioh]

I was extremely hyped for Jungle Hijinxs when I first saw it revealed, but then I played it and realized it was awful. The characters are too tiny in the background, the random pillar thing blocking you is hella dumb, and it's just way too big for competitive play. I hoped it would at least be a great stage for doubles, but I don't see it happening. It's a shame.

PS2's Flying and Electric transformations are miserable, but even though the stage is annoying, I guess it should be legal. PS1 will always be better, but alas...

Wait, what's this thread even about anymore? Should we just move to the stage discussion sticky?

 

[Gidy]

Do you mean Jungle Hijinx? If so, absolutely not.

Jungle Hijinx, yes. Why not?

 

[κomıc]

We should ban Smashville for having some of the most repetitive and snooze-inducing music. Or, just let 2AM play all the time.

The stage is so boring that it affects my commitment and wanting to play.

This is coming from someone who loves the Animal Crossing series, too.

(I'm being half-serious. That stage is so boring!)

 

[Balgorxz]

We should ban Smashville for having some of the most repetitive and snooze-inducing music. Or, just let 2AM play all the time.

The stage is so boring that it affects my commitment and wanting to play.

This is coming from someone who loves the Animal Crossing series, too.

(I'm being half-serious. That stage is so boring!)

I'm serious too, boring music should be banned from stages.
it affects the game experience from the people watching it and viewers=hype=money so its a pretty good complain to make even if it sound stupid.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

Just joined today, this will be my first post here. I'll be providing my thoughts on noteworthy stages listed.

General walk-off stages: Obviously some should be banned (like Yoshi's Island & Mario Circuit (Brawl)), but it's questionable whether walk-offs as a whole should be banned anymore due to chain grabs no longer being a factor, as many others have stated. I suppose the argument of them removing off-stage play is still viable, and it is still possible to cheese a stock by luring opponents to one of the sides and tossing them into the blast zones, but I feel they should be tested to determine if they're truly ban-worthy in this new entry. I think at the very least that they should be legal in Doubles & up, however. Just my humble opinion.

Final Destination: I think the flash of light thing is questionable, as it only lasts for a couple seconds, but from what I can tell, once it reaches the section after it (the Earth section, I suppose), the frame rate drops a little bit. I'm not entirely sure if this is fact, but it certainly feels like it, and I think this is ample reason for it to be banned, especially with there being suitable alternatives via select Omega stages. As odd as it feels to say this, I support banning it.

Big Battlefield: I don't know about it being too big for Singles, but it doesn't matter too much, as normal Battlefield is suffice for them (and most people will probably prefer it). Definitely should be legal in Doubles & up, though.

Delfino Plaza: Not sure if the reasoning listed is enough to justify a ban. I mean, honestly, is that more of a problem than the sections the stage takes you to being horrible for fighting on? It's a counter-pick for a reason.

Kongo Jungle 64: The reasoning listed definitely needs to be tested. I would imagine it not being a huge deal, though, given that it can only potentially be done while the barrel is not under the stage. I think it's a suitable counter-pick for Singles.

Skyloft: The issues stated are rare, making them of little concern. I've only been hit by the stage once during the 2+ months the game has been out, and I love playing on that stage, with Skyward Sword being one of my favorite video games of last generation (and in general), so I've been there quite a bit. I think it should be allowed as a counter-pick.

Pyrosphere: Ridley also outright obstructs the fight when he appears. He's one of the main reasons I wish we had the option to turn stage bosses/hazards off, because this stage would be great for tournaments otherwise.

Halberd: It's legal in Brawl, and unlike Delfino Plaza, there's nothing different about it. No reason for it to be banned.

Lylat Cruise: I haven't really noticed any differences with this stage coming off of Brawl. I say it should remain legal as a counter-pick.

Pokémon Stadium 2: I'm neutral on this one. I don't outright support it being banned, but I'm not going to fight for its legality, either, as both sides of the argument have legitimate points. I think it should just be up to the TO.

Castle Siege: Again, it was legal in Brawl, and there are no changes to it. Plus, it's a kick-ass stage. Counter-pick.

Garden of Hope: It's also worth noting that the Pikmin can create a wall out of twigs -- not to mention it's huge. Possibly could be legal for Doubles & up, but keep this stage out of Singles.

Town and City: One of the most neutral stages in Smash history (it's literally Smashville 2.0) with a 1/1,000,000 chance of getting KO'd by the retreating platforms. Banning this stage would be facepalm-worthy.

Duck Hunt: If we can have Delfino Plaza legal in Brawl, I think we can have this legal in Smash 4 (obviously as a counter-pick). If certain characters benefit from camping in the tree, just ban them on it, that way we don't lose one of the most dank stages in the series.

Pilotwings: I like the stage, but I can understand banning it. No objections here.

Wuhu Island: I thought this stage was banned because there's a glitch in the boat where it's possible to OHKO someone by down-throwing them into the bow of the ship, causing them to go into its hitbox? Either way, my counter to that is that it's very likely only possible with certain characters (I've only seen it happen with Ness d-throwing Wario via VGBootCamp), and we can just ban doing it on that part of the ship. As for the reasons stated in this thread, I don't think they're prevalent enough, as the moving platform reappears much faster than the ones in Melee & Brawl did (same with any of these kinds of stages in Smash 4). I think it's fine as a counter-pick.