"Why is this stage banned" (Wii U stages)

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

We should ban Smashville for having some of the most repetitive and snooze-inducing music. Or, just let 2AM play all the time.

The stage is so boring that it affects my commitment and wanting to play.

This is coming from someone who loves the Animal Crossing series, too.

(I'm being half-serious. That stage is so boring!)

Ban Smashville because it's all people ever play on in Smash 4 tournaments. Seriously, it's ridiculous.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wuhu Island: I thought this stage was banned because there's a glitch in the boat where it's possible to OHKO someone by down-throwing them into the bow of the ship, causing them to go into its hitbox? Either way, my counter to that is that it's very likely only possible with certain characters (I've only seen it happen with Ness d-throwing Wario via VGBootCamp), and we can just ban doing it on that part of the ship. As for the reasons stated in this thread, I don't think they're prevalent enough, as the moving platform reappears much faster than the ones in Melee & Brawl did (same with any of these kinds of stages in Smash 4). I think it's fine as a counter-pick.

It gets better. The Wuhu Island glitch requires the following set of conditions:

Ness
must use dthrow
on Wario or Villager
at a specific spot on the boat
at a specific time as the boat is moving
and pray to RNGesus that it actually works because even then it has a 10% success rate.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

It gets better. The Wuhu Island glitch requires the following set of conditions:

Ness
must use dthrow
on Wario or Villager
at a specific spot on the boat
at a specific time as the boat is moving
and pray to RNGesus that it actually works because even then it has a 10% success rate.

So VGBootCamp got the luckiest d-throw on record ever.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I really like

Spoiler

Norfair

Spoiler

s-sorry...

But seriously, I think it adds a nice dynamic, even when the lava wave hits. It's up to the players after all if they want to reset the momentum or fight until the very last second.

 

[Sonsa]

I really like

Spoiler

Norfair

Spoiler

s-sorry...

But seriously, I think it adds a nice dynamic, even when the lava wave hits. It's up to the players after all if they want to reset the momentum or fight until the very last second.

Do you...think we should competitively fight on it? I mean, it's fun with friends and all, but so much is constantly happening there's barely room to fight. Lava shoots from the background, lava slowly approaches from the sides and takes up half the stage, huge lava wave and both players havta agree to wait in the little pod or else. There's just way too much high knockback and damage coming from the stage itself. Even Brinstar was more predictable and easier to handle. It was even legal for a bit in Melee. Sorry, but no way I could fight on Norfair in a tourney.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Do you...think we should competitively fight on it? I mean, it's fun with friends and all, but so much is constantly happening there's barely room to fight. Lava shoots from the background, lava slowly approaches from the sides and takes up half the stage, huge lava wave and both players havta agree to wait in the little pod or else. There's just way too much high knockback and damage coming from the stage itself. Even Brinstar was more predictable and easier to handle. It was even legal for a bit in Melee. Sorry, but no way I could fight on Norfair in a tourney.

You can just block the big wave and the small spaces create interesting combat situations. The lava is predictable and can be utilized by both players. Sounds like an interesting counter pick to me.

 

[MajorMajora]

What I find interesting was all the complaints about how a stage "overly rewards" a certain tactic, especially one that is a single transformation of the stage. Shouldn't the stages encouraging different gameplay styles be something we encourage? If we want them to all offer the same thing, then what's the point of having more?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What I find interesting was all the complaints about how a stage "overly rewards" a certain tactic, especially one that is a single transformation of the stage. Shouldn't the stages encouraging different gameplay styles be something we encourage? If we want them to all offer the same thing, then what's the point of having more?

Do you want circle camping or backthrows at the blastline?

 

[MajorMajora]

Do you want circle camping or backthrows at the blastline?

I never cited those in particular.

One thing I saw was for Luigi's Mansion how 'control over a certain area was encouraged'. I mean, why not encourage it, spice things up? Promote new gameplay scenarios and things like that. Especially since these things can be broken and therefore there's a counter to the strategy.

Additionally, stages like Orbital gate assault where things are on an exact timer: why not? It requires a different type of skill, but skill none the less.

My point is that players are banning things based on whether or not they change how you play the game, which is silly since that is the point of having more stage variety.

 

[Sonsa]

You can just block the big wave and the small spaces create interesting combat situations. The lava is predictable and can be utilized by both players. Sounds like an interesting counter pick to me.

Sorry, but I'd substitute interesting with annoying. I want to watch the players fight uninterrupted by lava every few seconds. You're saying the players have to stop their fighting when they see the wave approach and agree to shield? I'm not sure, but I think the wave even goes through shields in this game. The stage just isn't good for an actual fight.
As well as stages like Luigi's Mansion and Orbital Gate Assault, fights should be about reads, punishes, spacing, just good fighting. Orbital gate has knockback and floors vanishing certain times, Luigi's Mansion is calmer but those 4 spots holding the house up can make hitboxes last longer and after being broken the house can suddenly rise up again without much warning, these stages just get in the way too much. However theyre styles and music are still cool so I think we can all gladly enjoy their omega forms for competitive battle.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sorry, but I'd substitute interesting with annoying. I want to watch the players fight uninterrupted by lava every few seconds. You're saying the players have to stop their fighting when they see the wave approach and agree to shield? I'm not sure, but I think the wave even goes through shields in this game. The stage just isn't good for an actual fight.

You're wrong on the bolded part, I have personally shielded and spotdodged the lava wave. And you don't even have to necessarily ceasefire, you can try and pressure the opponent and get them in hitstun as the wave is imminent, basically using the stage as a combo finisher. I don't know about you, but I'd consider that hype.

I would even go so far as to say it's preferable to shield or dodge as opposed to using the pod, since the pod takes a while to unseal afterward and in the meantime you're a sitting duck for disjoints.

As well as stages like Luigi's Mansion and Orbital Gate Assault, fights should be about reads, punishes, spacing, just good fighting. Orbital gate has knockback and floors vanishing certain times, Luigi's Mansion is calmer but those 4 spots holding the house up can make hitboxes last longer and after being broken the house can suddenly rise up again without much warning, these stages just get in the way too much. However theyre styles and music are still cool so I think we can all gladly enjoy their omega forms for competitive battle.

Orbital Gate Assault is completely predictable since it does the exact same thing every time you play through it. Luigi's Mansion likewise rebuilds itself after a specific amount of time that you can anticipate with experience.

 

[Sonsa]

You're wrong on the bolded part, I have personally shielded and spotdodged the lava wave. And you don't even have to necessarily ceasefire, you can try and pressure the opponent and get them in hitstun as the wave is imminent, basically using the stage as a combo finisher. I don't know about you, but I'd consider that hype.

I would even go so far as to say it's preferable to shield or dodge as opposed to using the pod, since the pod takes a while to unseal afterward and in the meantime you're a sitting duck for disjoints.

Orbital Gate Assault is completely predictable since it does the exact same thing every time you play through it. Luigi's Mansion likewise rebuilds itself after a specific amount of time that you can anticipate with experience.

I don't consider using stage hazards hype. Why not let Pyrosphere be legal and let Ridley do your work for you too? Okay, fine, they're predictable I guess, so was Poke Floats, Brinstar, and plenty of other distracting stages, there's no way I could take a fight on Orbital Gate seriously. Luigi's Mansion mayyybe.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't consider using stage hazards hype. Why not let Pyrosphere be legal and let Ridley do your work for you too? Okay, fine, they're predictable I guess, so was Poke Floats, Brinstar, and plenty of other distracting stages, there's no way I could take a fight on Orbital Gate seriously. Luigi's Mansion mayyybe.

Pokefloats was banned because it lacks any grabbable ledges so Jigglypuf et al dominated. Brinstar was banned in Brawl because of Meta Knight, IDK about Melee. "It's distracting" strikes me as a lame excuse at the very least, you need to go into a bit more detail than that.

Ridley is not your normal stage hazard because he literally allies with a player if you hit him enough. (Like that makes sense but whatever.) The lava wave on Norfair affects both players equally.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I've been testing out Skyloft (Playing by myself and with other players) and I personally don't think it's a bad stage. I personally find it a mixture of Delfino Plaza (Brawl) and Pokemon Stadium 1 (Melee) in terms of transformation and promoting different types of playstyles. I also think it's the Lumiosity of Smash 4 on Wii U.

Here are the pros and cons from my experience on Skyloft:

Pros:
- The transformation sections barely last long (Up to 10 seconds if I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong).
- Some parts of the transformation promote camping, but some also promote aggressive play due to the size of those sections.
- True, hazards have always been a problem in Smash games and I agree, but I don't think they're a big problem here. You can get early kills if you know when they are coming and those hazards barely appear.
- I know some will disagree with this, but wanted to say this; The order of the transformation sections are completely random, similar to Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2. This will make some parts of the gameplay interesting to see which part comes up!

Cons:
- Unlike stages like Delfino Plaza, The main stage itself sometimes gets too huge instead of staying the same size. This heavily promotes camping when the stage gets very large (Again, correct me if I'm wrong).
- When the game signals "We are moving out" (Arrow sign), it takes the main stage forever to return, resulting in players sitting there not doing anything until the main stage appears.
- Similar to Delfino Plaza, some parts of the transformation stages promote walk-off camping (Can't remember the official name of it).

Conclusion:
IMO, Skyloft has potential to be a counter-pick stage in the future. It definitely will not be a standard stage, and some of the flaws it has promotes camping, but since the transformation sections barely last, this will convince some players to go on the offensive to get early kills, including if they know when the hazards are coming. As of right now, I would ban it until we test it more!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Sorry, but I'd substitute interesting with annoying. I want to watch the players fight uninterrupted by lava every few seconds. You're saying the players have to stop their fighting when they see the wave approach and agree to shield? I'm not sure, but I think the wave even goes through shields in this game. The stage just isn't good for an actual fight.
As well as stages like Luigi's Mansion and Orbital Gate Assault, fights should be about reads, punishes, spacing, just good fighting. Orbital gate has knockback and floors vanishing certain times, Luigi's Mansion is calmer but those 4 spots holding the house up can make hitboxes last longer and after being broken the house can suddenly rise up again without much warning, these stages just get in the way too much. However theyre styles and music are still cool so I think we can all gladly enjoy their omega forms for competitive battle.

You can simply block the shield. And concerning your list of things the game is about, just add timing for this one. They don't have to stop either. It's dangerous to just shield and hope your opponent does nothing about it.

 

[Sonsa]

Pokefloats was banned because it lacks any grabbable ledges so Jigglypuf et al dominated. Brinstar was banned in Brawl because of Meta Knight, IDK about Melee. "It's distracting" strikes me as a lame excuse at the very least, you need to go into a bit more detail than that.

Ridley is not your normal stage hazard because he literally allies with a player if you hit him enough. (Like that makes sense but whatever.) The lava wave on Norfair affects both players equally.

Okay, so do you think Wily's Castle and Yellow Devil are fine? He's predictable and effects players equally so should be fine right? A lot of stages just have too much that get in the way of the fight. Like Orbital Gate, while not damaging you, forcing you into a tumble at certain points, and multiple floors disappearing. Norfair damages you, knocks you around, and can kill quite constantly. Even Halberd's lazer and cannon irk me, however those are super slow and only happen maybe once a match.
Maybe to better explain how I feel I think Pokemon Stadium 2 could be legal. Nothing damages or knocks you back, and while annoying at times, is predictable, safe, and effects players equally. Luigi's Mansion... I'm somewhat alright with, just that those pillars get in the way of projectiles and can be used to extend hitboxes, and that they take up a bit of real estate.

 

[Sonsa]

You can simply block the shield. And concerning your list of things the game is about, just add timing for this one. They don't have to stop either. It's dangerous to just shield and hope your opponent does nothing about it.

It's also dangerous to fight on a stage with lava everywhere, there's no way any of you are convincing me this stage should be legal, this is ridiculous. It's like one of the most stage-hazard ridden stages in the game.

 

[Balgorxz]

the easy way to fix smashville music is clone it with stage builder and add music

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

It's also dangerous to fight on a stage with lava everywhere, there's no way any of you are convincing me this stage should be legal, this is ridiculous. It's like one of the most stage-hazard ridden stages in the game.

The lava is what makes it interesting. Try to implement it in your playstyle. It's not even hard to adapt.
Also nice arguments you got there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Okay, so do you think Wily's Castle and Yellow Devil are fine? He's predictable and effects players equally so should be fine right? A lot of stages just have too much that get in the way of the fight. Like Orbital Gate, while not damaging you, forcing you into a tumble at certain points, and multiple floors disappearing. Norfair damages you, knocks you around, and can kill quite constantly. Even Halberd's lazer and cannon irk me, however those are super slow and only happen maybe once a match.
Maybe to better explain how I feel I think Pokemon Stadium 2 could be legal. Nothing damages or knocks you back, and while annoying at times, is predictable, safe, and effects players equally. Luigi's Mansion... I'm somewhat alright with, just that those pillars get in the way of projectiles and can be used to extend hitboxes, and that they take up a bit of real estate.

While I admit Wily's Castle ever being legal is unlikely (to severely understate the case) I would not be opposed in the slightest to a test run for the sake of experimentation. It's largely a question of when does a stage hazard become more pressing than your actual opponent, and different people will have different answers. (I think you already alluded to this, actually.)

I've been testing out Skyloft (Playing by myself and with other players) and I personally don't think it's a bad stage. I personally find it a mixture of Delfino Plaza (Brawl) and Pokemon Stadium 1 (Melee) in terms of transformation and promoting different types of playstyles. I also think it's the Lumiosity of Smash 4 on Wii U.

Here are the pros and cons from my experience on Skyloft:

Pros:
- The transformation sections barely last long (Up to 10 seconds if I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong).
- Some parts of the transformation promote camping, but some also promote aggressive play due to the size of those sections.
- True, hazards have always been a problem in Smash games and I agree, but I don't think they're a big problem here. You can get early kills if you know when they are coming and those hazards barely appear.
- I know some will disagree with this, but wanted to say this; The order of the transformation sections are completely random, similar to Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2. This will make some parts of the gameplay interesting to see which part comes up!

Cons:
- Unlike stages like Delfino Plaza, The main stage itself sometimes gets too huge instead of staying the same size. This heavily promotes camping when the stage gets very large (Again, correct me if I'm wrong).
- When the game signals "We are moving out" (Arrow sign), it takes the main stage forever to return, resulting in players sitting there not doing anything until the main stage appears.
- Similar to Delfino Plaza, some parts of the transformation stages promote walk-off camping (Can't remember the official name of it).

Conclusion:
IMO, Skyloft has potential to be a counter-pick stage in the future. It definitely will not be a standard stage, and some of the flaws it has promotes camping, but since the transformation sections barely last, this will convince some players to go on the offensive to get early kills, including if they know when the hazards are coming. As of right now, I would ban it until we test it more!

You got a few points wrong and I'd like to gently correct them. Also see my thread on the stage here.

The different transformations are not completely random. You may have noticed that the stage goes through a total of 4 transformations before returning to its start position over the island and doing another 4-transformation cycle. Each one of these transformations pulls from only 2-3 possible locations to stop at. So while it's not possible to completely predict the next transformation, you can always narrow it down considerably.

The main stage only ever gets bigger vertically, depending on which platform setup is attached at the time. (I assume you're talking about the floating platform that carries players around.) The width of this platform is always the same.

The warning sign for departure appears a minimum of 5 seconds before the stage actually moves on. It's not nearly as urgent as you seem to believe.

Walkoff camping (you got the name right) is basically impossible on a transforming stage because not only do you have 15 seconds or less to do it in, it puts you in an extremely disadvantageous position when the stage starts to move on. Very high risk for very low reward.

Last, I disagree with your final statement that it should be banned for further testing. It is very difficult to unban a stage once it's already banned because frankly, most people won't be interested in playing on it even for testing. Then in a tournament where the stage is legal, you have a few people who know how to deal with the stage and a majority who don't and will then blame the stage for any losses, resulting in the stage getting banned again. Instead, the stage should be legal until such time as it has been shown to cause degenerate gameplay.

 

[RanserSSF4]

While I admit Wily's Castle ever being legal is unlikely (to severely understate the case) I would not be opposed in the slightest to a test run for the sake of experimentation. It's largely a question of when does a stage hazard become more pressing than your actual opponent, and different people will have different answers. (I think you already alluded to this, actually.)

You got a few points wrong and I'd like to gently correct them. Also see my thread on the stage here.

The different transformations are not completely random. You may have noticed that the stage goes through a total of 4 transformations before returning to its start position over the island and doing another 4-transformation cycle. Each one of these transformations pulls from only 2-3 possible locations to stop at. So while it's not possible to completely predict the next transformation, you can always narrow it down considerably.

The main stage only ever gets bigger vertically, depending on which platform setup is attached at the time. (I assume you're talking about the floating platform that carries players around.) The width of this platform is always the same.

The warning sign for departure appears a minimum of 5 seconds before the stage actually moves on. It's not nearly as urgent as you seem to believe.

Walkoff camping (you got the name right) is basically impossible on a transforming stage because not only do you have 15 seconds or less to do it in, it puts you in an extremely disadvantageous position when the stage starts to move on. Very high risk for very low reward.

Last, I disagree with your final statement that it should be banned for further testing. It is very difficult to unban a stage once it's already banned because frankly, most people won't be interested in playing on it even for testing. Then in a tournament where the stage is legal, you have a few people who know how to deal with the stage and a majority who don't and will then blame the stage for any losses, resulting in the stage getting banned again. Instead, the stage should be legal until such time as it has been shown to cause degenerate gameplay.

thanks for correcting my post. I had a feeling I wasn't right on some points!

 

[Sonsa]

The lava is what makes it interesting. Try to implement it in your playstyle. It's not even hard to adapt.
Also nice arguments you got there.

The lava is what makes it annoying. Sure it's unique, and I don't really need advice on what to do there, I'm not losing casual fights there, it just can't be taken seriously. It's a stage that demands too much platforming from the players when they should be focusing on fighting. I mean, really, this is obvious, it's absurd I'm having this discussion. If you want to have your own tournament where Norfair is legal go for it, but I don't think I'll be participating. And thanks very much for the sarcasm.

While I admit Wily's Castle ever being legal is unlikely (to severely understate the case) I would not be opposed in the slightest to a test run for the sake of experimentation. It's largely a question of when does a stage hazard become more pressing than your actual opponent, and different people will have different answers. (I think you already alluded to this, actually.)

Well...yes, I agree the community has rushed in banning some more controversial stages and some more experimentation would be fantastic. I myself, missing Pokemon Stadium 1, looked to PS2 and figured "Y'know...I think it's annoying too, but tripping on the ice transformation isn't really a worry anymore and nothing directly hurts you with damage or knockback... Maybe it could make for some interesting battles..." and now that I've been forced to think about even more stages like Luigi's Mansion (that I should support since I play Villager) I will stay stubborn on Orbital Gate and Norfair, but Luigi's... it's a little big, but could be pretty good for 2v2s...

But yes, everyone is different, and will handle the situation in a different way. In Halberd, some people will try to combo into the hazards, whereas players like me will just try to ignore it feeling some gut reaction that doing that might be cheap.
I dunno, to me personally... If a hazard does any damage or knockback I'm pretty against that stage. Even Halberd makes me a bit uncomfortable, it's only that those hazards happen rather infrequently and are telegraphed way in advance. If someone told me I was allowed to combo into it, I would actually enjoy trying to be stylish there. Also any moving stage like Poke Floats or Rumble Falls in the past I think are too distracting.

Ah, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm rambling. But basically, nothing should get in the way of the fight. I should be focusing on predicting my opponent and reacting, maybe using platforms to my advantage. Even the Duck Hunt stage makes me nervous with ducks flying everywhere frequently getting in the way of my slingshot attacks. But since they don't really do any damage or knockback I chalk this up to just a sort of bad stage for Villager and a good counterpick. At least I can drop bowling balls from the tree. Whereas stages like Norfair spout lava everywhere all the time which is distracting, gets in the way of the fight, makes things unfair, and therefore actually boring.

...does that make sense or am I missing something? :o

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The lava is what makes it annoying. Sure it's unique, and I don't really need advice on what to do there, I'm not losing casual fights there, it just can't be taken seriously. It's a stage that demands too much platforming from the players when they should be focusing on fighting. I mean, really, this is obvious, it's absurd I'm having this discussion. If you want to have your own tournament where Norfair is legal go for it, but I don't think I'll be participating. And thanks very much for the sarcasm.


Well...yes, I agree the community has rushed in banning some more controversial stages and some more experimentation would be fantastic. I myself, missing Pokemon Stadium 1, looked to PS2 and figured "Y'know...I think it's annoying too, but tripping on the ice transformation isn't really a worry anymore and nothing directly hurts you with damage or knockback... Maybe it could make for some interesting battles..." and now that I've been forced to think about even more stages like Luigi's Mansion (that I should support since I play Villager) I will stay stubborn on Orbital Gate and Norfair, but Luigi's... it's a little big, but could be pretty good for 2v2s...

But yes, everyone is different, and will handle the situation in a different way. In Halberd, some people will try to combo into the hazards, whereas players like me will just try to ignore it feeling some gut reaction that doing that might be cheap.
I dunno, to me personally... If a hazard does any damage or knockback I'm pretty against that stage. Even Halberd makes me a bit uncomfortable, it's only that those hazards happen rather infrequently and are telegraphed way in advance. If someone told me I was allowed to combo into it, I would actually enjoy trying to be stylish there. Also any moving stage like Poke Floats or Rumble Falls in the past I think are too distracting.

Ah, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm rambling. But basically, nothing should get in the way of the fight. I should be focusing on predicting my opponent and reacting, maybe using platforms to my advantage. Even the Duck Hunt stage makes me nervous with ducks flying everywhere frequently getting in the way of my slingshot attacks. But since they don't really do any damage or knockback I chalk this up to just a sort of bad stage for Villager and a good counterpick. At least I can drop bowling balls from the tree. Whereas stages like Norfair spout lava everywhere all the time which is distracting, gets in the way of the fight, makes things unfair, and therefore actually boring.

...does that make sense or am I missing something? :o

It's a fine opinion and you're doing a good job of defending it. I just happen to disagree with it. Smash is unique in that the stage actually influences the fight since they're all shaped differently (compare to other fighters where every stage is a simple floor with a pretty background) and I think that the diversity they offer is part of the series' appeal.

I guess it's also worth mentioning that as the person doing most of the stage research threads, I'm at least familiar with most stages' hazards at this point. That probably influences my opinion somewhat.

 

[Sonsa]

It's a fine opinion and you're doing a good job of defending it. I just happen to disagree with it. Smash is unique in that the stage actually influences the fight since they're all shaped differently (compare to other fighters where every stage is a simple floor with a pretty background) and I think that the diversity they offer is part of the series' appeal.

I guess it's also worth mentioning that as the person doing most of the stage research threads, I'm at least familiar with most stages' hazards at this point. That probably influences my opinion somewhat.

Aw, thanks, you too. I've actually changed my opinion on Luigi's Mansion for 2v2s at least. No totally, I agree, I'd love to see more diversity, again, like Pokemon Stadium 2 becoming legal, but while I enjoy different layouts like Smashville, Town and City, Halberd, Battlefield, I really don't want the stage to be somewhat of an occasional 3rd player. Omega Stages are sort of meant to cater to the competitive players that play those games with just a flat floor and pretty background. To me, Norfair is obviously no good for good competition, but maybe I can explain Orbital Gate clearer?

While it can become predictable (I'd have to practice, I rarely play there on purpose - though it is gorgeous) it is always changing. There's not enough stability. Stages that change like Halberd do so very infrequently, or maybe a better example - Delfino Plaza - have a stable main area and drop off at many safe walk off or areas with water. It's a little iffy, some characters take advantage of water much more, but I guess it's not frequent and drowning has yet to be a problem from what I've seen, but the difference from Orbital Gate is that Orbital Gate is huge, really doesn't have even one stable section that lasts for a sufficient amount of time, floors are constantly being dropped, there's an explosion that doesn't damage you but does interrupt things with dramatic forced knockback, and there's even hitboxes on...uhh...when the missle things are against the wall? I'm pretty sure it can kill at high percents. Just seems like while you're fighting your opponent you're also fighting the stage, whereas on all our legal stages you don't really havta worry about that and can focus on the real fight.