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Why is Squirtle so good?

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
I came up with a second thread Idea! Yay! Anyway, I have seen a lot of compliments from Squirtle. I'm not saying he sucks (Being a Pokemon Fanatic, I do not believe any of them suck for that matter, not even Jigglypuff) but I am questioning if it is right to give him near uber praise especially since it hurts the Rep of the other two Pokemon on P. Trainer's team, especially Charizard. The philosopher Nietzsche (If you never heard of him, ask a philosopher and he is known for contradicting conventional wisdom) said that if something gets infinite value, everything looses value, which, to a degree, happened somewhat to the P. Trainer, since everyone seems to try to translate Squirtle's tactic to the other two, which will never work. In this thread, I would like you to explain Squirtle's uber status and if any of them are myths, I will explain so.
 

Geist

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
4,893
Location
Menswear section
Squirtle has amazing arial speed priority and minimal lag, not to mention good sized hitboxes in relative to his size. Also his ground sped and his pivoting dashes make him very unpredictable, especially because you can slide across the ground with smash attacks.

Also, I don't know if you knew this but pokemon type differences come into minor effect in brawl, like luigi's super jump punch kills ivysour at like, 45% and squirtle near 70-80%. Therefore squirtle is better than charizard, and Ivysaur, because Ivysaur just sucks lol.

Another thing, Jiggs is an awesome character.
 

momochuu

Smash Legend
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May 8, 2008
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Momochuu
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Ivysaur does not suck. o_o

Her attacks have alot of priority, and she has the most broken attack in the game. She's not a bad character, just not as good as the other two pokemon on the team.
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
See what I mean, Squirtle has infinite value and the other two, mainly Charizard, losses value as a result. Charizard is an awesome character if my first thread didn't make it that obvious, yet since Squirtle has uber value, it is not apparent. What's even worse, Ivysaur, who is very close in some value, also lost it which was aparent in blowtoes post. We need to give Squirtle a set value, otherwise Ivysaur and Charizard are going to look worthless.
 

Sarstious

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Everyone has different opinions on who they like and why. I like them all for different reasons, but my playstyle is more suited to squirtle so if I had to say which one is the best, i would lean toward squirtle. This doesn't mean that the other 2 have less value though. I can see you adore Charizard, but he doesn't suit everyone as well as the other 2 might, so not everyone is going to like him as much as you. And Ivysaur and Charizard definately aren't worthless no matter how good squirtle appears.

If you need some set reasons as to why hes good, blowtoes summed up the reasons pretty well, but I could also give reasons as to why Ivy and Charizard are better than squirtle. And luigi's KO punch kills squirtle at 55% (on FD) btw
 

Jebin_Zedalu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
59
Location
Colorado
Personally, I think that the more people underestimate the other two, the better. I love having the element of surprise.
 

Chaotic Yoshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
1,384
Location
canada
So are you trying to get squirtle discussion...
Or trying to show that squirtle shouldn't make the other two look bad...

Squirtle whole aerial game feels like Dr. Mario's Bair in melee, except Squirtle has more reach and priority and aerial DI making his edgeguarding deadly. Baiting into utilts is nice, depending on the character you can get alot of damage from just the utilt. He can kill with his fair, dthrow, uair, usmash, and fsmash. So basically do your damage with the other moves and save one of two of them for the finish.
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
Both, this is a Squirtle discussion on why he's good and why he makes the other two look bad. The degree of the loss of value is not the highest, but it is apparent. There is a dual side of underestimation, on one side, the underestimation makes it somewhat rare to see the underestimated in battle, but on the other hand, the surprise on the fact that they were just underestimated means it allows for a complete turnaround. My first thread was to get rid of the underestimation of Charizard, this one is to get rid of the overestimation of Squirtle (Ivysaur, somewhat between the two, is near accurate estimation). This is clearly the more uphill battle.
 

PkTrainerCris

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
762
Location
colombia
I think that people prefer squirtle because hes the pokemon who has the most "conventional" playstile, because ivysaur is just so awkward as a fighter( hes not bad, just awkward, but cool anyway XD) and there are not much people who plays with heavy characters like charizard. Also, squirtle is the fastet of the three pokemon, and has an amazing ground game and an almighty air game, asides of a decent recovery. Also he has hidroplaning and shellshifting, so i think hes a good character, anyway i think hes too light and poor-ranged, but nobodys perfect, my pokemons goe charizard>ivysaur>squirtle, i think its the opossite order of most people XDXDXD
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Squirtle is simply the best of the three. His air game is really amazing. His Fair, Bair, and Uair, are pretty much without lag and all of his aerials start out amazingly quickly. He has one of the best edgegames and can gimp with the best of them. His ground attacks are also incredibly fast. Overall I'd say that Squirtle has the second fastest attack speed in the game after MK. Charizard is good but not nearly as good as Squirtle and Ivy is just a weak link.
 

The Pimp

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Messages
36
All 3 are good I really do not have a specific order. At most I try to sometimes pick a pokemon in accordance to whoever my opponent picks.

People think squirtle is the best because of overall speed, hydroplaning, and rediculously good airgame.

Ivysaur is good because of her sweetspotted up-b, upsmash, up and down air, razor leaf and bullet seed.

Charizard is good because his attacks are so powerful overall, rocksmash ftw ;p, has a good spike, and decent approach if your good at autocancelling your attacks.
 

Chaotic Yoshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
1,384
Location
canada
How would you guys fight pikachu or metaknight with squirtle? Both of them negate your almighty edgeguarding. They are as fast as you, if not faster, slighty more range, disjointed, short etc.

Edit: This is in the situation where you cannot pokemon change, so none of those responses :p
 

metallic shadow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
132
People should learn that nobody of the three are best.
theyre all the same good, and a great team.
squirtle and ivysaur are great at building up damage,
and charizard gives the knockback sending out the foes.

Ok here are the pros and cons for the three guys copied from smashwiki.

Squirtle:
Pros:

Fast overall movement.
Fast attacks with decent damage and knockback.
Small target.
Can wall cling.
Can crawl.
Water Gun can be used to hamper horizontal recoveries and doubles as an attack.
Large disjointed hitbox on its recovery, which makes it hard to interrupt.
Can Pokémon Change with two other Pokémon.
Good aerial game.
Side Special move offers protection against most attacks.
Down aerial has good horizontal knockback on the final hit.
Pivot actually gives it a speed boost as opposed to slowing it.
Capable of shellshifting.
Up Special can score multiple hits if executed properly.
Up Smash hits a large area and kills 80-100% if uncharged.

Cons:
Pokémon Change is punishable and mandatory, due to the Stamina Mechanic and coming back as the next one in the cycle.
Very light and can be easily KO'd. (3rd lightest)
Water Gun has small range if used uncharged and as an attack, and charged does no damage.
Most attacks are fairly weak.
Low range.

Ivysaur:
Pros:
Excellent Projectiles.
Bullet seed can rack up 30-50% damage, even with good DI and can possibly turn into a combo if followed by up tilt/smash.
Vines are a huge disjointed hitbox.
Down air can spike if the opponent is hit near the bud.
Razor Leaf can go through multiple opponents and its damage will not weaken from fatigue.
B-air has long range and is great for spacing.
Up air, Down air, and Up Smash are all powerful finishers.
Dash Attack is capable of finishing an opponent at around 100% and is very quick.
Can change to two other Pokémon if necessary.
Can Crawl, although given Ivysaur's low position to the ground, its usefulness is questionable
Up Special move is a Tether Recovery and has a sweetspot at the tip of the vine with good knockback.
Up smash does serious damage and knockback, strongest in the game.
Jab combo near edge can edge guard.
All tilts have good range, damage, and spacing properties.

Cons:
Tether-only recovery is easily edge-hogged.
Change is punishable and mandatory, due to stamina and coming back as the next in the cycle.
Difficult to pick up for some due to extremely defensive style of play.
Up Special move's distorted hitbox makes it hard to accurately hit opponents.
Short jumps combined with the tether-only recovery, gives Ivysaur a very poor recovery.
KO moves are fairly slow.
Crouch does not reduce height significantly, making crawling effectively worthless.
Easy to juggle.

Charizard:
Pros:
Fast running speed.
Two midair Jumps.
Can Glide.
Has a Meteor Smash.
High-damaging, moderate-ranged attacks.
Rock Smash has huge knockback and damage.
Heavy.
Down Throw can KO at high percents.
Up Special Move gives Super Armor Frames.
Up aerial is quick, can juggle well, and works well with its multiple jumps.
Good aerial movement.
Can be switched with Ivysaur or Squirtle as the situation may require.
Long range, powerful tilt attacks.

Cons:
Very slow walk speed.
Lacks a quick, high-knockback finisher.
Glide is slow.
Large target.
Easy character to combo & juggle.
Some attacks are slow.
Pokémon Change is easily punishable and is mandatory due to the stamina mechanic and the fact that Charizard is replaced by Squirtle if KO'd.
 

Leahdybug

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
291
Location
Florida
Oh god why ^ jk

Squirtles easy to pick up imo.He was the least used for me but then I got around to him and I could do some crazy mind games with him.
 

JiangWei23

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
220
I agree with Leahdybug. The easiest Pokemon to pick up and start going toe-to-toe with other Brawlers is Squirtle. Amazing aerial game, speedy ground combos, and the safest/nigh invincible approach in the game, his Side+B. Add in one of the smallest Brawler size, new techniques like hydroplaning and you've got one of the best in the game.

Of course, Squirtle's not without his drawbacks too, the three main problems I have (personally, this may not apply to everybody) are damage ratio, fatigue, and weight. Squirtle's damage given to damage taken sometimes doesn't come out well, constantly attacking all the time means that Squirtle will get tired faster than the other two Pokemon, and his light weight means anything above 50% damage is getting dangerous.

I used to use Squirtle the most, but as I branched out and played around with the other Pokemon, my Squirtle game actually suffered as my other two went up. ^_^; Currently I play Ivysaur > Charizard > Squirtle.
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
When will this myth die?! Of all the Pokemon, Squirtle is the slowest, not the fastest. In complete contrast, Charizard is the fast one, but it must be easily confused.
 

Chaotic Yoshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
1,384
Location
canada
Now when you say fast, you mean running speed. Because in general speed for everything, more specifically attack speed, Squirtle is definitely the fastest...
 

KernelColonel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
365
Location
BBY BC
^lol

I found a video describing the seemingly-underground advanced tactics of Squirtle.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2yTMrFboN2I

I question why Pokemon Trainer isn't higher tier. I guess it's because you can't play with Squirtle all the time...but hey, Charizard isn't even that bad. **** you Ivysaur...
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
It really depends on what character you're currently battling that determines the most powerful Pokemon.

Sure, Squirtle can run circles around a lot of the cast in the air. But as someones already said, what will you do when Metaknight shows up? Metaknight will absolutley tear through Squirtle's poor range, and his disjointed hitboxes allow him to further take advantage of Squirtle. But wait! Ivysaur has much more range on its attacks, including the alimighty spacing tool known as the Bair. Suddenly, Ivysaur doesn't look so bad.

All of the people in this thread criticizing certain Pokemon (mostly Ivy) are being a tad ignorant to the benifits that Ivysaur can provide. If played well, I think its probably the best of the three.
 

Adriel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
338
Down smash. Use it. It is the safest of Squirtle's smashes; you can shield or jab right after the move is done and it can kill about as well as down-throw. It is a surprisingly good edgeguard move because of it's priority and range. The low angle it sends your opponent makes it very easy to edgeguard also. Lastly, it has 3 hitboxes, I believe, first in front of you then in back of you and then in front of you again.
 
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