Why is PT universally considered to be terrible?

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

God, Torrent, Overgrow, and Blaze would be *****in, but then that would make Lucario less special. =(

It would make fatigue kind of pointless (well, more pointless than it already is).

 

[infernovia]

Fatigue isn't pointless, its an unneeded nerf.

Personally, it would be awesome if a pokemon's damage output got stronger when it hits 2 mins. Wouldn't even be game breaking.

 

[Steeler]

well it'd override fatigue somewhat

i really liked retro's idea, just losing stamina for each ATTACK would make a lot more sense. and opponents couldn't just stall you into fatigue :\

lucario's aura ability doesn't even make sense, because it has nothing of the sort in the games. inner focus would actually serve a purpose, by reducing flinch (hitstun) even more, as ridiculous as that would be.

thing is pt's pokemon should be even more rested than pika/jiggles/luke due to the fact that they get to rest in pokeballs...u__u

Personally, it would be awesome if a pokemon's damage output got stronger when it hits 2 mins. Wouldn't even be game breaking.

thing is, that would discourage switching, which is something sakurai clearly tried to encourage. he succeeded...a little TOO well. :\

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Fatigue isn't pointless, its an unneeded nerf.

Personally, it would be awesome if a pokemon's damage output got stronger when it hits 2 mins. Wouldn't even be game breaking.

Uh...how isn't it pointless? It's not as though you need an incentive to switch your pokemon. The game switches them for you automatically when you die, so it's not as though you could just play without switching ever. And for people who want cycle back to their favorite right away, you can already that, since dying restores the stamina of a pokemon. Certainly, fatigue doesn't HELP any.

 

[infernovia]

Good point about the 2 mins stronger thing.

Uh...how isn't it pointless? It's not as though you need an incentive to switch your pokemon. The game switches them for you automatically when you die, so it's not as though you could just play without switching ever. And for people who want cycle back to their favorite right away, you can already that, since dying restores the stamina of a pokemon. Certainly, fatigue doesn't HELP any.

Thats the description of an unneeded nerf. Pointless means that it doesn't change things either way, but Fatigue does affect things. It might not happen 100% of the time, but every 3 - 4 matches, it happens.


And I wish the change mechanic was better for a character that is based on switching the fighter. You know, I would take a 1 second switch where you are completely vulnerable rather than a 4 second switch where you are invulnerable for a while.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Good point about the 2 mins stronger thing.


Thats the description of an unneeded nerf. Pointless means that it doesn't change things either way, but Fatigue does affect things. It might not happen 100% of the time, but every 3 - 4 matches, it happens.


And I wish the change mechanic was better for a character that is based on switching the fighter. You know, I would take a 1 second switch where you are completely vulnerable rather than a 4 second switch where you are invulnerable for a while.

That's not what pointless means. I believe the word you are looking for is "futile". Pointless mechanics still have an effect. All mechanics have an effect of some sort. Pointless simply means that there is no sense or reason behind said mechanic. If it was not pointless if would have to have a point, which sadly, it does not. Tripping would be another example. It certainly has an effect, but does it have a point? I doesn't hinder, or help anyone in particular, since it occurs randomly.

 

[infernovia]

Ah well. Glad to have that english lesson eggman.

 

[Bomber7]

Well look at it this way. I think they designed the fatigue so that pokemon trainer wouldn't become overwelming. Think about it. Just staying as Charizard the whole time or Ivy, and they'd be at full power. That defeats the whole pupose of having pokemon trainer. Without the fatigue, PT could be just about untouchable and probably be in the high to god tier. That is just my thought. With the fatigue, you have to switch out and use the other pokemon provided for you. That way PT's design wasn't a total waste.

 

[infernovia]

God tier? That would be true if each pokemon had an incredible match with each of the character in the roster. I am talking 70-30. But its not. In fact, there are many characters where all 3 of the poke don't even have an advantage in the fight. So at best, it would simply push PT to mid tier/low mid tier.

Think about it like this, G&W has a good matchup against pretty much the whole cast or neutral. And he isn't S ranked.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Well look at it this way. I think they designed the fatigue so that pokemon trainer wouldn't become overwelming. Think about it. Just staying as Charizard the whole time or Ivy, and they'd be at full power. That defeats the whole pupose of having pokemon trainer. Without the fatigue, PT could be just about untouchable and probably be in the high to god tier. That is just my thought. With the fatigue, you have to switch out and use the other pokemon provided for you. That way PT's design wasn't a total waste.

The game already forces you to switch automatically when you die. You can't play without switching at least a couple times. And besides, there's nothing technically preventing you from cycling back to your favorite regardless (except your opponent of course), since their stamina is restored upon knock-out.

Fatigue doesn't balance Pokemon Trainer because he isn't overpowered to begin with. Even without fatigue, Meta Knight and friends can still keep him in line.

 

[Bomber7]

Well like I said with the example of Charizard with no fatigue. More people would play as him because he's strong, durable and somewhat fast. People would play to win at any means neccissary. I could see mainly squirtle get shut out if fatigue wasn't apart of the programing.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Well like I said with the example of Charizard with no fatigue. More people would play as him because he's strong, durable and somewhat fast. People would play to win at any means neccissary. I could see mainly squirtle get shut out if fatigue wasn't apart of the programing.

Hmmm. So you're saying this whole fatigue thing is actually a contrived plot to get people to use Squirtle =P? I'd prefer that each character be useful on their own merit rather than having the game try to force you to play a character you have no use for. Well, maybe "no use" is a bit harsh, but you know what I mean.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Because he IS pretty terrible.

Fun as heck, and certainly usable, but all three Pokemon have really glaring weaknesses.

(I didn't read the thread, by the way.)

 

[Bnana]

well, Pt is only good if you use all three pokemon. No matter what you say,its true.



and gtfo if you dislike Pokemon trainer

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Because he IS pretty terrible.

Fun as heck, and certainly usable, but all three Pokemon have really glaring weaknesses.

(I didn't read the thread, by the way.)

Is he a secondary of yours or did you just use him for the hell of it in that one tournament? I still want to see vids. D=

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is he a secondary of yours or did you just use him for the hell of it in that one tournament? I still want to see vids. D=

He's my only official secondary; I screw around with a lot of others, but PT is a serious secondary.

 

[Alus]

i am going to be the scrub of the day and not read anyones posts... and just say that pt is like link... fun to use... but not a good char overall...

 

[Charizard92]

To simplify the problems in lame man's terms:

The fatigue mechanic makes sure you actually use PT to his fullest potential, but is easily attacked for this.

Squirtle is a hit and run type character, but he doesn't do so well and is among the worst among his own peers.

Ivysaur is purely defensive, but this is hard to learn, along with how to get back onto the stage once you get hit.

Charizard is practically holding the entire team on his shoulders, and he likely isn't high tier enough to do it.

Oh, and I hope he becomes mid tier at least. Low, and they get overlooked, he is relatively underrated after all.

 

[Bomber7]

@EGGMAN: What charizard said is basically what I've been saying, though I didn't go into their personal deatails like he did. Asside from that, if you look at this whole board and look at the threads being posted, you will find that most of the people here find Charizard the most appealing. Ivy and Squirt, haven't been praised yet, Charizard gets the spotlight(I'm not downing those who love charizard, i'm just giving an example here). Like Chaizard and I said, the fatigue factor is so PT is fully used or else I think we can all agree that Charizard would be mained alot or used full time while Squirt and Ivy would be over shadowed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

By the way, while Squirtle is affected by fatigue the most, I think it's ridiculous to say that he is the worst of the three. It's all about matchups; with proper spacing, he's a combo king at times and Melee Jigglypuff at others. I find that fatigue isn't that big of a deal most of the time.

All of Ivysaur's moves are designed to be good regardless of fatigue (U-Smash and F-Smash still kill well; aerials are multi-hit).

Charizard is affected a decent amount, since his decently-powered moves no longer kill, and you're reliant on a Rock Smash (funny how "Smash" is still in the powerful move's name) or U-Smash for a kill. If anything, he can take a hit, and he has a great defensive game, I guess. He can also gimp well with F-Air, D-Air, or a spiking B-Air.

Squirtle...has issues killing when fatigued, but he can still combo the heck out of someone with the right spacing. He has a great edgeguarding game because of his aerial mobility. People overlook it because he doesn't have great gimp moves like Charizard, but with characters that can't recover extremely quickly or invincibly, jumping out with B-Airs and N-Airs is perfect for keeping them out. When Dedede is off the level, he shouldn't live, because you can waste his jumps that way and then hit him back out when he lands from his Up-B.

The usability of most of the characters is arguable; I know a lot of non-PT mains that swear that Squirtle is the best character in the game without fatigue factored in, and I don't think it's a ridiculous claim.

 

[washy]

To simplify the problems in lame man's terms:

The fatigue mechanic makes sure you actually use PT to his fullest potential, but is easily attacked for this.

Squirtle is a hit and run type character, but he doesn't do so well and is among the worst among his own peers.

How can you say squirtle is the worst, squritle isn't a hit and run character, he's good at gimping but he can combo.

Ivysaur is purely defensive, but this is hard to learn, along with how to get back onto the stage once you get hit.

I don't know, ivysaur has a really good projectile but it also makes a great aproach and ivysaur would rather do that then spam razor leaf, tiltis, and follow razor leaf up with attacks.

Charizard is practically holding the entire team on his shoulders, and he likely isn't high tier enough to do it.
: /

CHarizard is the reason why most people play PT, and there fore is and can hold the team on his shoulder high tier or not, if there was no charizard, i wouldn't main PT.

Oh, and I hope he becomes mid tier at least. Low, and they get overlooked, he is relatively underrated after all.

How many experienced players do you even play against?

 

[Onxy]

I'm starting to feel that Charizard is really becoming overrated. Yeah he has a great move-set, but his size really doesn't help him at all; considering that you can't even open up with many attacks, because they overshoot, or he lands from an aerial too early.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The fatigue mechanic makes sure you actually use PT to his fullest potential, but is easily attacked for this.

That is arguable. In a fair amount of matchups, I find myself wishing I could have the one Pokemon that I feel I do well with in that area.

A Squirtle-only main, without fatigue in place, could very well be really good. Same with the others; it's how you get around what is seemingly impossible for the average player.

For the record, nine times out of ten, I start with Ivysaur, so I can learn exactly how I need to fight with him.

 

[l SOUP l]

That is arguable. In a fair amount of matchups, I find myself wishing I could have the one Pokemon that I feel I do well with in that area.

A Squirtle-only main, without fatigue in place, could very well be really good. Same with the others; it's how you get around what is seemingly impossible for the average player.

For the record, nine times out of ten, I start with Ivysaur, so I can learn exactly how I need to fight with him.

Well said, as do I.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Hm, I'm noticing that the best PT players start with Ivysaur. I always go with random to be honest. Maybe I should go along with the flow. x_x

Do you play on Wi-Fi, Reflex?

 

[Bomber7]

I do random as well but my strategy that I came up with best works for me if I start with Squirtle. I recorded a vid today that I have on my wii from WIFI that shows how my strategy works. I'm a decent player but don't be fooled. I was playing against a very suckky player who was Olimar. It was +3 to -3. It was a hallow victory if you ask me.

 

[Adriel]

Starting with Ivysaur only most of the is not a good idea in my opinion. If you get knocked out as Ivysaur unexpectedly and/or get gimped, you'll have Charizard out at 0%, which is a bad thing for many match-ups. Charizard gets hurt quickly and has the hardest time against projectiles. This is both a waste of a stock and Charizard's potential. Since Charizard is supposed to be the backbone of the group, starting off with Ivysaur is only a good idea if Ivy has the advantage or is at least at a fairly neutral match-up.

 

[Bomber7]

Starting with Ivysaur only most of the is not a good idea in my opinion. If you get knocked out as Ivysaur unexpectedly and/or get gimped, you'll have Charizard out at 0%, which is a bad thing for many match-ups. Charizard gets hurt quickly and has the hardest time against projectiles. This is both a waste of a stock and Charizard's potential. Since Charizard is supposed to be the backbone of the group, starting off with Ivysaur is only a good idea if Ivy has the advantage or is at a fairly neutral match-up.

Well said.

 

[Elliot Gale]

Because Squirtle dying instantly and leaving you with Ivysaur is so much better, amirite? [/sarcasm]

 

[Bomber7]

Well if you damage your opponent alot with squirtle and IF you die(as in you don't switch out at the right time) it will be easy to finish off them as Ivy, THEN you can either stay as ivy and then damage them and then switch to Charizard or after you finish as Ivy, switch instantly to Charz for an all out brawl.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hm, I'm noticing that the best PT players start with Ivysaur. I always go with random to be honest. Maybe I should go along with the flow. x_x

Do you play on Wi-Fi, Reflex?

In general, I recommend starting with the Pokemon you feel that you are least comfortable fighting with. The reason being, when it really counts, that Pokemon's going to be stuck in the match eventually, and having experience in friendlies will help immensely later.

If it's an important match, think of the matchup more than anything, though. :x

As for Wi-Fi, I haven't played in ages (I cry about lag so often, heh...). Still, I'd be up for it. My Wii is broken, and I'm borrowing a friend's, so PM or IM me if you want my current Brawl Friend Code.

EDIT: I honestly think I have a lot to learn (I still do stupid things from time to time), and I'm sure that lag will throw me off. Hopefully my connection won't suck. I hope I don't disappoint. >_<

 

[Bomber7]

I remeber when I picked up that idea of going random for PT, I had to train with Charz and Ivy for about a week or two before I got the feel for them. I'm trying to think as to who was harder, Charz or Ivy.... ummm I can't remember becasue they were both pretty difficult to adjust to so it's uncertain in my case.

 

[Onxy]

You shouldn't be gimped so quickly when using Ivy... no reason for it. Unless you play a bad, BAD Ivysaur, or completely out-classed, Ivy shouldn't be tossed around like that; in fact, no character should be tossed off the stage that quickly.

I hate the fact that many characters can chaingrab Squirtle, but other than that, he is alright.

I also don't feel too comfortable with Charizard... maybe it's because of the Wi-fi. Ivy IMO, has a much better move-set than both of the characters.

 

[Bomber7]

If you use Charz occasionally to only about 2 seconds, then you should train with him a bit more so that way if you have to go chasing your opponent everywhere to kill him, you can get your job done quickly.

 

[Onxy]

Well it is just my opinion that Ivy > Charizard.

BTW, I see that people say that Ivy plays like Olimar, she plays nothing like Olimar, considering that I main Olimar, and PT.

I just want to add that Ivy has probably the best tilts that I've seen so far. Snake and MK obviously have better ones, that should be apparent.

 

[Bomber7]

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've never really said anything because most of the time it's best to leave stupidity where it is or risk infection. The only reason why I'd see the comparison is because of the UP-B. Even so, that isn't really good basis for a comparison.

 

[Charizard92]

@ Washy:

on Squirtle: Squirtle is a unique hit and run type character. He can (and is recommended) combo, but he has a play style similar to Sonic and Jigglypuff, get as many hits in as possible, then run far enough so that they can't hit you back, and repeat. Squirtle isn't that good at it.

On Ivysaur: When I said purely defensive, I mean purely defensive in the tense of a fighting game, which is, as defensive as humanly possible with attacks. He is a camper, no questions. Does he have offensive capabilities, of course, otherwise he'd be harder, but he plays a defensive style game, which means fatigue doesn't hurt as much.

On Charizard: Yeah, I want to live in that dream too, but in full reality, I know that, as good as Charizard is, he isn't a Marth or Snake. He is unlikely to be high or god tier on his own, and holding up a team with a rather pathetic turtle and a purely defensive Frog thing ain't helping much either.

 

[Onxy]

@ Washy:

on Squirtle: Squirtle is a unique hit and run type character. He can (and is recommended) combo, but he has a play style similar to Sonic and Jigglypuff, get as many hits in as possible, then run far enough so that they can't hit you back, and repeat. Squirtle isn't that good at it.

On Ivysaur: When I said purely defensive, I mean purely defensive in the tense of a fighting game, which is, as defensive as humanly possible with attacks. He is a camper, no questions. Does he have offensive capabilities, of course, otherwise he'd be harder, but he plays a defensive style game, which means fatigue doesn't hurt as much.

On Charizard: Yeah, I want to live in that dream too, but in full reality, I know that, as good as Charizard is, he isn't a Marth or Snake. He is unlikely to be high or god tier on his own, and holding up a team with a rather pathetic turtle and a purely defensive Frog thing ain't helping much either.

The only reason that Charizard is even considered good is because of his Rocksmash, and his incredible grab range. I can't think of another thing that Charizard is even that wonderful in. He has nice aerials, okay tilts, and bad smashes.

Ivy has incredible tilts, good smashes, good aerials, great B moves, but terrible recovery.

Squirtle's jab is incredible, with great aerials, ok to good tilts, good grab range, ok B moves, but no kill moves. Not rather pathetic IMO.

 

[Bomber7]

@ Washy:

purely defensive Frog thing ain't helping much either.

Ivy is a plant Dinosaur.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You shouldn't be gimped so quickly when using Ivy... no reason for it. Unless you play a bad, BAD Ivysaur, or completely out-classed, Ivy shouldn't be tossed around like that; in fact, no character should be tossed off the stage that quickly.

I hate the fact that many characters can chaingrab Squirtle, but other than that, he is alright.

It sounds like you've never played a half-decent Dedede or Falco before. It's not hard to grab Ivysaur, and it's not hard to toss Ivysaur around like a ragdoll, due to Ivysaur's utterly bad aerial movement.

Also, who can chaingrab Squirtle that can't chaingrab Ivysaur? Yoshi?