Why is it hard for Sakurai to implement third party?

[volbound1700]

Well that's what I'm trying to tell you. The heart of the difficulty in implementing third party characters in Smash has nothing to do with obtaining the rights and other legal ramifications. Like I said, that part largely works itself out if both companies are mutually interested in it happening.

But if a developer approaches Sakurai about a character that he had no former interest in including, the mutual interest does not exist and it doesn't happen. Same deal the other way around. If Sakurai wants to include a character but the company doesn't want in, then it won't happen.

That's probably why you find your negotiations to be so easy: Because a manufacturer and a buyer have a mutual interest because the buyer needs the machine, and the manufacturer needs to make money. In the case of Smash, there is no NEED. Only want.

And on top of that, it is difficult to implement the character from a creative standpoint because two companies can often differ on how a character is to be portrayed.

So with Sakurai largely not even wanting most third party characters, and differences of interest in design and brand, yes, it's relatively difficult to make third party characters happen in general.

Nope, not always the case. Sometimes your business unit/engineer wants company A. Company A, knows this, so they kill you on Terms and Condition addendum as well as pricing and you have to find ways to get them to a fair price and work together on the legal terms.

Your business unit will often make negotiations hard because they are always in a rush and want everything yesterday as well as they want product A and won't listen to any other products or venders which sometimes have a better product or value.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I will give you the point about joint ownership but I doubt it is true for many of these characters (with the exclusion of wierd ones like Bomberman and Geno who had traded hands). Sonic was made by a Sonic Employee who likely has an Employment contract that lists any work product as product of SEGA, etc.

It is not like screen writing where the scripts are sold to studios and usually the writer retains rights of the script.

Tell that to numerous screenwriters who have created famous characters and then lost the majority of the rights to those characters to studios. It happens more than you think. Right now? My first thought that came to mind was Wes Craven and Freddy Krueger for some odd reason.

But you have no ways of knowing which characters that are third party have easy situations and harder situations. Sure the bigger ones like Pac, Sonic, Mega Man probably have easier rights processes, but the further you dip into the third party pool? The harder the rights process is gonna be.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Sonic worked but felt a little... lacking in polish in my opinion.

He was added very late in development.

 

[volbound1700]

Tell that to numerous screenwriters who have created famous characters and then lost the rights to those characters to studios. It happens more than you think. Right now? My first thought that came to mind was Wes Craven and Freddy Krueger for some odd reason.

But you have no ways of knowing which characters that are third party have easy situations and harder situations. Sure the bigger ones like Pac, Sonic, Mega Man probably have easier rights processes, but the further you dip into the third party pool? The harder the rights process is gonna be.

It happened to Disney . He lost Oswald the Rabbit early on in his career when he left to make Walt Disney. Oswald would have been Mickey Mouse if not for that decision. He was forced to make another character for his cartoons and thus we have Mickey.

Now we are having a fun discussion . You did make good points about Third Party ownership with this issue but then again you still have this issue in other industries as well and they get things done in a quick amount of time. I also have that sometimes in my industry where we have sub-contractors and other parties involve with a product. That is a fun mess.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Nope, not always the case. Sometimes your business unit/engineer wants company A. Company A, knows this, so they kill you on Terms and Condition addendum as well as pricing and you have to find ways to get them to a fair price and work together on the legal terms.

Your business unit will often make negotiations hard because they are always in a rush and want everything yesterday as well as they want product A and won't listen to any other products or venders which sometimes have a better product or value.

Wait... I'm confused... Wasn't the point of this thread to show how sakurai's negotiations ought to be easy with your example as a reference point for comparison? And now you're providing an instance where negotiations aren't smooth? What's the point now? =P

 

[Xaltis]

He was added very late in development.

Sonic was supposed to be in Melee though. I'm confused why he wasn't one of the first ones made for Brawl. And I hope if he is in Smash 4 that he doesn't have 3 buttons that all do spin dashes.

 

[Curious Villager]

Sonic was supposed to be in Melee though.

Where did you hear that? Unless you are referring to that old April Fool's Prank....

 

[Xaltis]

Where did you hear that? Unless you are referring to that April Fool's Prank....

No, no the April fools prank. Uh... I'll find the video.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Sonic was supposed to be in Melee though. I'm confused why he wasn't one of the first ones made for Brawl. And I hope if he is in Smash 4 that he doesn't have 3 buttons that all do spin dashes.

I do not recall that Sonic was supposed to be in Melee. However, Hideo Kojima approached Sakurai and asked him to include Snake, but they were too late in production to include him. Hideo knows what's up. He is one of the few developers whose basket I would put all my eggs in.

 

[volbound1700]

Sonic was supposed to be in Melee though. I'm confused why he wasn't one of the first ones made for Brawl. And I hope if he is in Smash 4 that he doesn't have 3 buttons that all do spin dashes.

It was Snake that was suppose to be in Melee because of the relationship Sakurai had with Snake's creator.

@ Hextupleyoo - I can admit areas that disfavor my argument, this is discussion and not an argument. However, I don't find all of those compelling as I pointed out.

My main view is that most Companies would love the opportunity to put their characters in Smash for the hype it generates. I just do not see real resistence from a company that is making games on Nintendo systems. Even in the case of a character that maybe jointly owned like Sora for example. Unless a party in that group just has some vendetta against Nintendo or wants their character in Playstation Battle Royale, I don't see them saying no to such a great advertisement opportunity for their character.

Now the internal customer (Nintendo) is another story.

 

[Xaltis]

I do not recall that Sonic was supposed to be in Melee. However, Hideo Kojima approached Sakurai and asked him to include Snake, but they were too late in production to include him. Hideo knows what's up. He is one of the few developers whose basket I would put all my eggs in.

Yea I coulda sworn that was the case with Sonic as well. I can't find it but it's not too important so I'll leave it alone. I just hope Sakurai plays "Sonic Battle" so he can see how many different moves Sonic is able to have.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It happened to Disney . He lost Oswald the Rabbit early on in his career when he left to make Walt Disney. Oswald would have been Mickey Mouse if not for that decision. He was forced to make another character for his cartoons and thus we have Mickey.

Now we are having a fun discussion . You did make good points about Third Party ownership with this issue but then again you still have this issue in other industries as well and they get things done in a quick amount of time. I also have that sometimes in my industry where we have sub-contractors and other parties involve with a product. That is a fun mess.

Another thing I'd like to point out that I often see is that one person has the rights to creating the character's story and personality and another person who is more of an artist creates the look and design of the character.

Heard a lot of internal horror stories there.

 

[volbound1700]

Yea I coulda sworn that was the case with Sonic as well. I can't find it but it's not too important so I'll leave it alone. I just hope Sakurai plays "Sonic Battle" so he can see how many different moves Sonic is able to have.

You are thinking of the April Fools joke that stated Sonic and Tails were unlockable by surviving 5 minutes Impossible Melee.

 

[Xaltis]

You are thinking of the April Fools joke that stated Sonic and Tails were unlockable by surviving 5 minutes Impossible Melee.

No no~ I know about that joke. I even tried it once before. ^^;

I swear I saw it in a video, I think it was a "Did You know Gaming" thing.

 

[Frostwraith]

I'll answer the thread's question in two words: licensing issues.

 

[volbound1700]

I'll answer the thread's question in two words: licensing issues.

Didn't stop Disney in Wreck-it Ralph or McDonalds with their happy meals .


Also, it isn't hard when third parties are jumping in their boots to get the advertising Smash brings (i.e. Capcom and SEGA). Granted, you cannot get all third-parties. Banjo-Kazooie would basically be impossible right now but I don't see the issue with Capcom, Sega, Namco, or other companies that are open and willing to do it.

A lot easier then most negotiations companies do daily.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Why is this topic going on

I bet Sakurai can then include Goemon from Mystical Ninja by all the logic thrown by vol here. No its or buts.

 

[Frostwraith]

Didn't stop Disney in Wreck-it Ralph or McDonalds with their happy meals .

These companies still have to go through the trouble of asking for permission and such, since they're using other companies' propriety.

Not only that, but adding too much third parties would deviate from the series' premise of bringing Nintendo's All-Stars. Sakurai is extremely careful selecting characters and has mentioned how adding such characters isn't as easy as adding Nintendo ones.

 

[volbound1700]

Why is this topic going on

I bet Sakurai can then include Goemon from Mystical Ninja by all the logic thrown by vol here. No its or buts.

I have no clue who that is but a good negotiator can do anything so yes.

 

[RekRP]

Didn't stop Disney in Wreck-it Ralph or McDonalds with their happy meals .


Also, it isn't hard when third parties are jumping in their boots to get the advertising Smash brings (i.e. Capcom and SEGA). Granted, you cannot get all third-parties. Banjo-Kazooie would basically be impossible right now but I don't see the issue with Capcom, Sega, Namco, or other companies that are open and willing to do it.

A lot easier then most negotiations companies do daily.

You seem to forget what Smash is at heart. It is a crossover of all Nintendo characters. I doubt Sakurai wants to diverge from that in any way, but Megaman and Sonic are special cases, considering the history of those characters. I can't really come up with an explanation for Snake other than Kojima wanting him in since melee's production.

 

[Frostwraith]

I have no clue who that is but a good negotiator can do anything so yes.

It's not just negotiation, though. Sakurai doesn't want to add third party characters "willy-nilly."

He wants to keep it mostly Nintendo themed and too much third party characters deviate from that premise.

 

[SmashChu]

The simple answer is it has to do with content. Smash is a Nintendo fighting game, so the cast is Nintendo characters. So he limits the characters he includes from outside companies.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Just thought I'd also note... I feel like you overestimate just how many companies want a representative in Smash bros so much that they're actually coming to Sakurai with the idea. =P

 

[volbound1700]

I do know that according to Sakurai and comments from representatives in their companies, Capcom and SEGA were both happy to add their characters to Smash. I also seem to gauge from the comments from Namco they are happy as well. That is three of the biggest third-party companies on Nintendo system and covers a good chunk of available third party characters that people would be interested in.

 

[FalKoopa]

Also, it isn't just limited to characters. Stages, assist trophies, Songs etc. also make up a good amount of content.