Why is it hard for Sakurai to implement third party?

[volbound1700]

Honestly, when I hear Sakurai complain about the negotiation difficulty with third parties, I want to laugh. My job involves negotiation with outside companies everyday (Procurement). We have to bring them on-site at our plants to install complicated machines or purchase machines/machine parts from them. These machines usually have high IP value which leads to strict NDAs and limitation on visit. We also have Safety/OSHEA requirements to bare. I actually work for a Japanese company so I work with other companies out of Japan, China, etc.

Sakurai does not have to deal with Indemnity, Terms and Conditions, Warranty, or any of those issues when adding a third party character. All he has to do is get the third party to sign an NDA and agree in a contract how to impliment the character. Also most of the third party companies like SEGA and Capcom are jumping at the opportunity to add their star character.

I really do not see the difficulty that Sakurai is complaining about, perhaps I am missing something. If my company can get 100s of venders to agree to NDA to come on-site and work at their plants, to design engineering drawings for us, to engage in advertising, etc. I don't see how Sakurai cannot get a company to donate a character and some game content from that series to Smash Brothers. He should try working for a global manufacturing company.

 

[VA3TO]

I'm going to assume something a long the lines or "Royalties" and then proceed to agree with everything you say.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

...perhaps I am missing something.

You are. Whether it makes sense or not, whether you like it or not, whether or not you have a million third-party exclusives to point out, Nintendo is a highly solitary company. They genuinely do consider third-party inclusions "special cases". Sakurai even speaks of Mega Man as a special case in his tech demo. The politics are not just with the company wanting to join on board with Smash Bros. but also amongst themselves, deciding the character's place inside the franchise and how much it will detract from or add to Nintendo's image.

Additionally, as they have spoken, the workload of adding a new character increases as the number of characters grow, and you seem to disregard this. They have to consider a new character in relation to all of the characters that already exist in terms of uniqueness and balance. He said the additional work is relatively multiplicative, which I think is true, but it is probably more accurate to say it is something like a low exponential curve. What does this mean? It means that in order to add a character, they would in the net time spent on production have to decide whether they are going to spend a lot of time adding the character. When it comes down to it, they are going to have to make a tough decision: Do you spend that time developing a character that will push a Nintendo franchise forward, or a third-party character who may not have any impact on Nintendo sales? I understand the rest of this is speculation, but at the end of the day, they are in it for profit, and they are going to have to decide if the third-party character will boost more Nintendo sales by pushing Smash Bros. exposure or if they will be better off pushing a character from one of their own franchises.

I am also willing to bet the nature of reaching solidarity in your profession is much different than it is in the video game industry. There is a great degree of mutual marketing in this game, and third-party characters can exist primarily on other platforms, like Snake. This can put the issue at a console-level.

And this isn't even touching on coming to terms with the third-partycharacter from a viability or artistic point of view.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Artistic integrity I suppose...

 

[volbound1700]

@ Quilt

I can understand internal politics as they can be a hold-up in my profession as well.

On your other issues, the character issue applies just the same for 1st party as for 3rd party so that is a wash.

As for marketing or royalties, I would approach a third party company with a take it or leave it offer. Most of them would buy the take it. I mean just having your character in the game is a big marketing tool and I doubt Nintendo really has to pay royalties for Sonic, Snake, and Megaman (if they are, it is dumb). I imagine that the creaters were eager to put their characters in Smash for advertising. The only payment Nintendo likely made was to cover the hours of the "contractors" hired to add the content to the game and make sure it flows correctly.

Sakurai, does not have to deal with anything related to safety, indemnity, or warranty which is a monster to deal with in negotiations. He has a great position because he doesn't need these characters (basically he has leverage in negotiations as Karass would state). I would love to be in that position because it would be a rather easy position. If Capcom acts dumb about Megaman, then go to Ubisoft and get Rayman. Pretty simple. Someone is going to negotiate and work with you fairly easily.

I also feel a lot of the heartburn Sakurai recieved on 3rd party internally was Snake since he was more of an icon of Sony.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Me thinks you don't understand how copyright ownership works at all and just how many factors there are in play when it comes to rights over a franchise or a character.

It is just as a big of a hurdle as Sakurai says truly.

 

[volbound1700]

Me thinks you don't understand how copyright ownership works at all and just how many factors there are in play when it comes to rights over a franchise or a character.

It is just as a big of a hurdle as Sakurai says truly.

Copy right works the same way as Patents.

We argue about even procedures and techniques of our job which have patents. We have the same issues basically. We have machines built by companies we have edited to make our product more efficient. We don't allow one of the manufacturers on our site because we made edits to their machine to make it 3x more efficient and we want to keep that secret because we know the manufacturer would sell the idea to our competitors.

In this situation, you are getting a license to use a character for a product. It is not difficult to do if the company is open to the idea. Smash Brothers is a game that most third parties would love to see their character in so I don't see an issue unless the company is named Sony or Microsoft (or an affiliate of the two). Then you would have MAJOR problems.


We have the difficulties of being sued because a third party product fails and messes up our products or injures/kills an employee. I say that is more serious than anything Sakurai is dealing with in his negotiations and yet we still find a way to bring in 100s of venders including very large household names who have very difficult legal departments. Usually the larger and more powerful a company, the harder it is to contract with them.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

On your other issues, the character issue applies just the same for 1st party as for 3rd party so that is a wash.

I am really inclined to believe you did not read all of my post, or even carefully what you did.

As for marketing or royalties, I would approach a third party company with a take it or leave it offer. Most of them would buy the take it.

The nature of these negotiations has little to do with what you would do.

I would love to be in that position because it would be a rather easy position. If Capcom acts dumb about Megaman, then go to Ubisoft and get Rayman.

I am starting to wonder if you are a troll because you seem to disregard that legal negotiations are handled as if they were precarious. You seem highly ignorant of the ramifications of dismissing Capcom in favor of something else. The consequences of these poor negotiations will be on the minds of everyone in future talks about Mega Man on a Nintendo console. It could mean they approach Sony for a new franchise instead, meaning fewer sales for Nintendo. You also clearly don't see that Nintendo isn't actively working to get third-party characters, so the move to get Rayman instead is dubious.

 

[volbound1700]

@ Quilt,

I understand perfectly the negotiations and you can make a firm offer to Capcom stating the terms to get Megaman in the game. If they don't want to abide by them, than no harm no foul. It won't affect Capcom being included on Nintendo consoles or the series in any way. Sakurai could just set a list of requirements for third party characters to be in the game and then bring it to a vendor.

We do that with Indemnity terms. Sure, we have had bad blood with companies because they didn't work with us on Indemnity but that was usually because we had to pull current orders with them as well because if they are not going to indemnify us when someone is injured as a result of their product, than we cannot work with them.

As I said before, Sakurai is not going to face lawsuits or other issues we will deal with related to negotiations so his negotiations are not as serious of a nature.

It is the same negotiations that McDonalds deals with when they do their happy meals and have a Marvel Character like Ironman included, etc. We got a deal with Disney to show off our product in a future film. It was a rather easy to deal to negotatiate. We have our items displayed with the film and the film is displayed on our products. Trust me, the negotiations here are not that hard.

I have a friend that does high clearence military contracts with Boeing. Now that is a challenge and stressful!

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Seriously... like... seriously...

Do you have actually any proof to legitly compare your situation with Sakurai's when almost none of us here has any clue? I bet it's so much more different than we can think, and we had already enough statements telling it is so. 2nd parties are a lot way in some positions despite being potential playables, so I don't acguiring rights to use them is easy either.

Besides, CONSISTENCY. The game's already hard to work on and adding 3rd parties for sake of adding is never good.

 

[Curious Villager]

Volbound, honestly. Why exactly do you want to fill up the roster with third parties anyway?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Volbound, honestly. Why exactly do you want to fill up the roster with third parties anyway?

Nintendo characters suck.

 

[Curious Villager]

Nintendo characters suck.

I should have known. But that brings up the question then. Why play Smash in the first place if you hate Nintendo characters?

 

[CalumG]

Honestly, when I hear Sakurai complain about the negotiation difficulty with third parties, I want to laugh. My job involves negotiation with outside companies everyday (Procurement). We have to bring them on-site at our plants to install complicated machines or purchase machines/machine parts from them. These machines usually have high IP value which leads to strict NDAs and limitation on visit. We also have Safety/OSHEA requirements to bare. I actually work for a Japanese company so I work with other companies out of Japan, China, etc.

Sakurai does not have to deal with Indemnity, Terms and Conditions, Warranty, or any of those issues when adding a third party character. All he has to do is get the third party to sign an NDA and agree in a contract how to impliment the character. Also most of the third party companies like SEGA and Capcom are jumping at the opportunity to add their star character.

I really do not see the difficulty that Sakurai is complaining about, perhaps I am missing something. If my company can get 100s of venders to agree to NDA to come on-site and work at their plants, to design engineering drawings for us, to engage in advertising, etc. I don't see how Sakurai cannot get a company to donate a character and some game content from that series to Smash Brothers. He should try working for a global manufacturing company.

...Not to belittle your post or your job, but I don't think negotiating over machine parts is even remotely the same as negotiating over multi-million (or even billion) dollar video game franchises, and not just because they're entirely different industries. I'm not even going to say any more on the subject because this is quite literally like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

No no no.

Negotiating over machine parts is totally the same as say Marvel going up to Fox or Sony and going ''Hey can we have the rights to our characters in the X-Men and Spider-Man back? Oh how nice of you! You're so sweet. Here I baked a pie for you."

Or Sakurai going up to the Capcom who seem to have a strong Mega Man flavored haterade at their desks and asking to put him in Smash Brothers.

Media forms = Machinery totally.

 

[SureNsync]

I'm going to be completely honest... I kind of miss when Smash Bros didn't had any third party characters.

I just seriously miss that Nintendo atmosphere that Smash 64 and Melee had.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I think if 2 third party people in Brawl ruined the Nintendo atmosphere for you then you're probably asking for too much.

Because step back and think 2 people out of a 35 man roster weren't Nintendo.

 

[volbound1700]

...Not to belittle your post or your job, but I don't think negotiating over machine parts is even remotely the same as negotiating over multi-million (or even billion) dollar video game franchises, and not just because they're entirely different industries. I'm not even going to say any more on the subject because this is quite literally like comparing apples to oranges.

I negotiate for multi-million dollar Machines as well as Installations.

I would also say that advertising (deciding what products appears in a commercial/movie) is very on point with Smash Brothers. To me it involves the same stype contracts and negotiations.

 

[SureNsync]

I think if 2 third party people in Brawl ruined the Nintendo atmosphere for you then you're probably asking for too much.

Because step back and think 2 people out of a 35 man roster weren't Nintendo.

I get the feeling that you were referring to me.

What do you have against my posts? where did I ask for anything? the Nintendo atmosphere was there, it just wasn't as pure and didn't give me that feel I felt from Smash 64 and Melee.

Damn, you make it seem like I'm the villain.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I never said you were a villain. Just an observation that 2 third party reps didn't seem to affect the atmosphere of it being a Nintendo fighter at all.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think Solid Snake's inclusion was highly experimental. By gum, it worked but they had to tweak it a lot. First Snake got a brighter redesign and then they had to make his landmines into sci-fi ones.

Sonic worked but felt a little... lacking in polish in my opinion. And Mario vs Sonic is a fight gamers wanted for eons so no complaints there.
Mega Man works because frankly nearly everyone out there mistakes the classic Mega Man games for being made by Nintendo.

 

[Artsy Omni]

It's not as easy as you make it sound like it should be. Video games is a creative industry. creative companies are very protective of their intellectual property and are very controlling of the way their property is portrayed, because their creative endeavors are very public, and every decision has an impact on how the entire video gaming community views their property and in what light.

I'm not insinuating that a character being in smash would have a negative impact on the property's image. I'm simply trying to communicate that there are a lot of hoops to jump through. Though its probably not as stressful as sakurai sometimes makes it out to be.

But it's not just a matter of difficulty, anyway. Samurai isn't eager to have guest characters in general. When there's a mutual interest by both samurai and the party in question, I have no doubt the negotiations go relatively smoothly. But it's an issue of interest, not difficulty.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I think if 2 third party people in Brawl ruined the Nintendo atmosphere for you then you're probably asking for too much.

Because step back and think 2 people out of a 35 man roster weren't Nintendo.

I think the problem with third party reps is no matter how few you have suddenly the roster potential has increased by a ridiculous amount. Thus character hype and likewise disappointment tend to increase.

Not that I mind third parties. I think it's people's own fault for being so sure their third party is going to make it in. Really that is a problem in general, but it's worse with third parties because so few make it in.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

And look at Playstation All Stars. The companies had a lot of control over who got in and how they were handled. Blame Capcom for the new Dante being in rather than the classic.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Have you forgotten how much Sakurai deliberates over character decisions regardless? It sounds like adding characters and cutting characters are the sort of decisions that keep him up at night. Are you really telling me you can't see why a character being a third party would make these sorts of decisions that much harder? Sakurai gets attacked for not making the characters he knows the best well. Can you imagine if he messed up a third party, or if they felt out of place? Even just from a within his own mind perspective, third party characters make things so much harder.

 

[Artsy Omni]

The comparison of franchise crossover in game design to a client-centered industry just doesn't make sense, =P they're two entirely different things.

 

[volbound1700]

It's not as easy as you make it sound like it should be. Video games is a creative industry. creative companies are very protective of their intellectual property and are very controlling of the way their property is portrayed, because their creative endeavors are very public, and every decision has an impact on how the entire video gaming community views their property and in what light.

I'm not insinuating that a character being in smash would have a negative impact on the property's image. I'm simply trying to communicate that there are a lot of hoops to jump through. Though its probably not as stressful as sakurai sometimes makes it out to be.

But it's not just a matter of difficulty, anyway. Samurai isn't eager to have guest characters in general. When there's a mutual interest by both samurai and the party in question, I have no doubt the negotiations go relatively smoothly. But it's an issue of interest, not difficulty.

We are too in our industry! Everything you are stating applies to us as well. We have Machines we build to manufacture our products internally to avoid getting their secrets out. We have very strict NDAs and procedures and only allow "Class-A" shops to work on certain projects. Everything you are stating about Nintendo also applies to my industry, sometimes compounded. I work for a Fortune 500 company and I will leave it at that.

I find it silly because Sakurai doesn't have to worry about Indemnity, Warranty, or safety issues which compound the problems as well as negotations and trying to meet a percentage in savings to impress your internal customer.

I have worked with large companies as well as small mom and pop shops on projects. There is a difference but if you are good enough negotiator and know what you want, usually everything works out.



"Why do I want more third party?" It is not that I wanted 1st/3rd party. I just want a quality product and with our pool of characters dwindling, their is a lot better characters that often appear on Nintendo system but are not under the Nintendo brand that can add value to the Final product.

I am not a Nintendo fan, Sega fan, Sony fan, etc. I am a fan of a great product and getting the best Value in the product.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Yes, but your desire conflicts with sakurai's very clear intention to limit 3rd party inclusions. Again, the reason there aren't many 3rd party characters isn't because it's hard to get the rights. It's because sakurai doesn't want to stuff it with third parties.

And our pool of viable characters is anything but running low. =p

 

[volbound1700]

I think the problem with third party reps is no matter how few you have suddenly the roster potential has increased by a ridiculous amount. Thus character hype and likewise disappointment tend to increase.

Not that I mind third parties. I think it's people's own fault for being so sure their third party is going to make it in. Really that is a problem in general, but it's worse with third parties because so few make it in.

How is this different than any other negotiations in any other industry? You think McDonalds doesn't have the same questions when they approach Disney about who is going to be on the box of their next Happy Meal or what toy will be in it?

Do you not think my company would have the same problems when we approach a company about how to use our product in said movie/film as well as the advertising for this film. (Obviously we are joint advertising with the company on this project).


A great on-point example is Disney's Wreck-it Ralph movie. They managed to pull that off.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

How is this different than any other negotiations in any other industry? You think McDonalds doesn't have the same questions when they approach Disney about who is going to be on the box of their next Happy Meal or what toy will be in it?

Do you not think my company would have the same problems when we approach a company about how to use our product in said movie/film as well as the advertising for this film. (Obviously we are joint advertising with the company on this project).


A great on-point example is Disney's Wreck-it Ralph movie. They managed to pull that off.

This was a response to something someone else said. I don't think it is necessarily different then McDonald's approaching Disney or what have you. I was merely giving a potential justification (I'll be it a weak one) for why someone might not want third parties at all.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

This thread gives me a head ache from the fundamental lack of not only misunderstanding Sakurai's desires, but the entertainment industry and rights within it as a whole.

 

[volbound1700]

Yes, but your desire conflicts with sakurai's very clear intention to limit 3rd party inclusions. Again, the reason there aren't many 3rd party characters isn't because it's hard to get the rights. It's because sakurai doesn't want to stuff it with third parties.

And our pool of viable characters is anything but running low. =p

I can agree to this bolded statement or at least the point that artistically it could be hard. Negotiation-wise, I doubt it. That may be the part Sakurai is talking about.

When it comes to the artistic side of making a video game (or anything), I am not an expert and cannot comment.

 

[volbound1700]

This thread gives me a head ache from the fundamental lack of not only misunderstanding Sakurai's desires, but the entertainment industry and rights within it as a whole.

So you must work in the entertainment industry and be an expert, correct? Tell us about it then.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

This thread gives me a head ache from the fundamental lack of not only misunderstanding Sakurai's desires, but the entertainment industry and rights within it as a whole.

Eh, I think it is the pointlessness of the thread in general that is troubling. There is no insight to be gained nor laughs to be had from this. This is basically just someone throwing up there arms ans saying "Why Sakurai why?!" He made the decision he made. We can't change that, and why would we want to?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

So you must work in the entertainment industry and be an expert, correct? Tell us about it then.

As it would have it that yes I am a aspiring screenwriter who has dabbled into the entertainment industry already, yes, and I can tell you that you are in fact so misunderstanding the issue. There are literally tons upon tons of hoops to jump through in the entertainment industry because of the nature of creating art in it. Characters/music/movies/games/franchises often have more than one person that own them or have stake/claim in them. Each one of these factoids have to be considered and factored into any discussions.

You often have cases as well, where one person owns something in one medium and another person owns it in another and both parties have to be consulted.

Rights are far far far more complicated in this industry.

 

[Xaltis]

Geno counts as a third party character right?

 

[volbound1700]

Eh, I think it is the pointlessness of the thread in general that is troubling. There is no insight to be gained nor laughs to be had from this. This is basically just someone throwing up there arms ans saying "Why Sakurai why?!" He made the decision he made. We can't change that, and why would we want to?

Sakurai hasn't even released the game yet so we don't know what will be in it. How could I say "why?" when I don't even know what is even in the game. We had plenty of third party in Brawl based on the timing available (granted two companies but the fact we got all the Sonic material in the game on short notice shows how well SEGA and Sakurai's team were able to implement it so fast).

I think I will be happy with the selection of characters in Smash 4, actually, but from a discussion point, I just found that comment from Sakurai silly unless he meant it in an artistic format. Almost every video game company outside of Sony/Microsoft entities would jump at the idea of having their star mascot in Smash. That is why the comment sounds a little ridiculous to me.

Plus there is nothing else to talk about on here. If you don't like the thread, don't post.

 

[Artsy Omni]

I can agree to this bolded statement or at least the point that artistically it could be hard. Negotiation-wise, I doubt it. That may be the part Sakurai is talking about.

When it comes to the artistic side of making a video game (or anything), I am not an expert and cannot comment.

Well that's what I'm trying to tell you. The heart of the difficulty in implementing third party characters in Smash has nothing to do with obtaining the rights and other legal ramifications. Like I said, that part largely works itself out if both companies are mutually interested in it happening.

But if a developer approaches Sakurai about a character that he had no former interest in including, the mutual interest does not exist and it doesn't happen. Same deal the other way around. If Sakurai wants to include a character but the company doesn't want in, then it won't happen.

That's probably why you find your negotiations to be so easy: Because a manufacturer and a buyer have a mutual interest because the buyer needs the machine, and the manufacturer needs to make money. In the case of Smash, there is no NEED. Only want.

And on top of that, it is difficult to implement the character from a creative standpoint because two companies can often differ on how a character is to be portrayed.

So with Sakurai largely not even wanting most third party characters, and differences of interest in design and brand, yes, it's relatively difficult to make third party characters happen in general.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Orrrr Sakarai's lying to us like he loves to do on a daily basis.

He probably has all the third parties down already!!

 

[volbound1700]

As it would have it that yes I am a aspiring screenwriter who has dabbled into the entertainment industry already, yes, and I can tell you that you are in fact so misunderstanding the issue. There are literally tons upon tons of hoops to jump through in the entertainment industry because of the nature of creating art in it. Characters/music/movies/games/franchises often have more than one person that own them or have stake/claim in them. Each one of these factoids have to be considered and factored into any discussions.

You often have cases as well, where one person owns something in one medium and another person owns it in another and both parties have to be consulted.

Rights are far far far more complicated in this industry.

I will give you the point about joint ownership but I doubt it is true for many of these characters (with the exclusion of wierd ones like Bomberman and Geno who had traded hands). Sonic was made by a Sonic Employee who likely has an Employment contract that lists any work product as product of SEGA, etc.

It is not like screen writing where the scripts are sold to studios and usually the writer retains rights of the script.