Why Is Clone Such an Ugly Word?

[Mr. Mumbles]

If I were to say right now that Wolf is a Fox clone many of you would probably get defensive, and point out how completely different Wolf's a attacks are, and how his specials have some nuanced differences that make him completely different in competitive play. From what I gather (I don't actually know much about competitive play), you'd be right.

However when most people say clone, I don't think they're arguing whether or not too characters have a different play style. I think what is often be argued is that the so called clone has many special moves that resemble that of another character.

The problem I have isn't that characters such as Lucas don't feel unique, it's that the similar special moves feel lazy and uninspired. It makes it seem like they didn't really want to put this character in the game, or they had some good ideas on how to make said characters feel like themselves but then they ran out of ideas.

Now with some characters like Toon Link (and maybe Wolf and Lucas) this feels a bit more forgivable as if there counter parts weren't in the game, this may well be the move set that Sakurai (or one of his underlings) would have come up with for them anyway. But for Ganondorf this feels particularly atrocious, because I don't believe that. If C. Falcon weren't already a part of the smash series I don't think Ganondorf's moveset would be what it is.

As I've stated before Sakurai doesn't owe us anything, so I'm not mad. I'm just surprised. Especially since with most characters it seems like he really goes out of his way to make them feel right.

Regardless, does this bother any of you who don't like the word "clone?" Regardless of whether or not you like that word, can you see the beef that some of us have? And does anyone think there is a good chance of Ganondorf getting the major overhaul he should have had last time? We saw quite a few changes to a couple of characters, but I could've sworn I heard somewhere that Sakurai doesn't like to make major changes to characters for fear of alienating players of the previous games. I don't have a source for this though, so I have no idea if it is true.

EDIT: Fixed Sakurai's name.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Fox is a clone he creates clones when he uses fox illusion.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Fox is a clone he creates clones when he uses fox illusion.

And then he kills them instantly so that know one will know. Also there can only be one!

 

[FalKoopa]

Eh, I don't really mind clones.

I'm sure most people would rather give the clones a revamped moveset instead of cutting them.

Also, it's "Sakurai" not "Sakuria"

 

[lordvaati]

it's kind of a bad rub off from Melee. Probably the biggest flaw with Melee was that about 1/3d of the characters pretty much used tweaked moveset of others, which is almost always stated in reviews of the game. On one hand, some people like the nice nods some clones had-Dr.Mario and Melee Falco were just the movesets of 64 Mario and Fox- but on the other hand, all of them were added in place of more unique characters for the roster, like Dedede and(supposedly) Snake. Brawl did it again as will with Tink, and almost with The Doctor again.

also, because Ganondorf.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I think it'd be hilarious if Sakurai acknowledged the dislike of clones in Smash by confirming that Mewtwo and Snake wouldn't be returning.

 

[Moon Monkey]

but I could've sworn I heard somewhere that "Sakuria doesn't like to make major changes to characters for fear of alienating players of the previous games."

Well that statement has been completely thrown out the window after seeing the changes made to Pit and Bowser, now doesn't it?
I'm having a good feeling that "clones" won't be as prevalent in SSB4 as they were in Brawl, and most definitely Melee.

But overall i agree I am not a fan of characters with similar movesets.

 

[[Corn]]

Clones have a bad stereotype because literally all of them end up having a similar playstyle with either equal or worse effects for learning the original character. Its not unique and its simply lazy.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Also, it's "Sakurai" not "Sakuria"

Have I ever mentioned that I hate spelling. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Clones have a bad stereotype because literally all of them end up having a similar playstyle with either equal or worse effects for learning the original character. Its not unique and its simply lazy.

So basically the problem is some characters have a lazier design then others? Say Dr. Mario was lazier and such than Ganondorf or Wolf. I guess that makes sense. I don't know. Anything where the special moves are clearly similar rubs me the wrong way, hence why I guess I'm not offended by calling certain characters clones.

 

[[Corn]]

So basically the problem is some characters have a lazier design then others? Say Dr. Mario was lazier and such than Ganondorf or Wolf. I guess that makes sense. I don't know. Anything where the special moves are clearly similar rubs me the wrong way, hence why I guess I'm not offended by calling certain characters clones.

In real life you have copy cats, who play nearly identical to the original player but have small differences in speed or reaction. People will notice the inferiority or awkwardness. Eventually the copycat player will adapt that playstyle into something completly different and eventually be considered unique.

Smash is no different.

Luigi and Ganon are examples of Clones who have evolved into nearly unique characters, and I would assume Falco is very close behind.

 

[Dark Phazon]

CaptainDorf is indeed the CloneKing of *******.

 

[[Corn]]

CaptainDorf is indeed the CloneKing of *******.

Dont u diss the electrical nipple spike.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

In real life you have copy cats, who play nearly identical to the original player but have small differences in speed or reaction. People will notice the inferiority or awkwardness. Eventually the copycat player will adapt that playstyle into something completly different and eventually be considered unique.

Smash is no different.

Luigi and Ganon are examples of Clones who have evolved into nearly unique characters, and I would assume Falco is very close behind.

So basically by SS7 Ganondorf won't have any moves that even resemble Captain Falcon? I can live with this... assuming such a game exist and I still care about Smash by then.

 

[Wigglytuff ★]

I think I would be more tolerant of clones in SSB4 is they came in the form of DLC. If they showed up as alternate costumes in the roster with he same moveset, but different appearance and stats. So, for instance, Daisy could be a downloadable "clone" of Peach, whose "bomber" has flowers instead of hearts, and who is heavier but faster and can't float. This could be a nice way to work in, say, "Classic Link" or "Toon Link," or "Dr. Mario" and "Paper Mario."

 

[[Corn]]

So basically by SS7 Ganondorf won't have any moves that even resemble Captain Falcon? I can live with this... assuming such a game exist and I still care about Smash by then.

I would consider Ganon a completely different character in Brawl, although not very effective of course.

Different playstyles make characters not clones, not the appearence or movements.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

As others mentioned before its a really lazy way of adding another character to the roster. In a game design perspective, no one enjoys seeing closely similar characters where just the attributes changed. Its almost as similar saying that in an RPG we fight Green Goblins. Half way through the game we find Red Goblins. The only difference is that the look of the monster changes as well as some attributes are changed. The attacks are the same.

I would love to see a whole different move set for Gannondorf, I can imagine really cool things they could do with him then just give him C.Falcon's moveset, with some variation. As for the Wolf / Fox comparison, I think this is a better way of making characters similar. They are from the same series so some small aspects should be the same such as the Down B reflector and a gun. As for the other attacks, they heavily differ. I wouldn't call these two clones. As for the Fox / Falco comparison, they have almost exactly the same moveset with a little variation. All of their special B attacks are the same. Their smash attacks are almost the same except for the F-Smash. Aerial attacks are almost the same as well such as the U-Air and D-Air.

 

[GP&B]

Wolf and Lucas are more of a derivative than a straight clone. Their normals are substantially different. Ganondorf and Falco often get the clone label in Melee because they have more attribute (physics and move-wise) differences than real changes to their animations.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I would consider Ganon a completely different character in Brawl, although not very effective of course.

Different playstyles make characters not clones, not the appearence or movements.

From a gameplay perspective I agree with you. From a psychological one I disagree and I think psychology is an important part of gaming. Having moves that look similiar regardless of whether they are or not, still feels lazy. If nothing else it is lazy from a visuals and concept perspective, even if it isn't from an execution stand point.

I will agree that Ganondorf isn't nearly as similiar to Captain Falcon as Dr. Mario was to Mario, but even still I don't find this resolution to be completely satisfying. To me it just feels like a step in the right direction. Nothing more nothing less. 7 May have been a bit of Hyperbole, but I suspect it won't at least be until the next one until I am satisfied with Gdorf. Of course Sakurai could always surprise me and the visuals/concept could be quite different this time around.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Wolf and Lucas are more of a derivative than a straight clone. Their normals are substantially different. Ganondorf and Falco often get the clone label in Melee because they have more attribute (physics and move-wise) differences than real changes to their animations.

Eh I'm not particularly attached to the terminology as I was trying to convey in my original post. Call it whatever you want; I still feel unsatisfied with special attacks that are distinctly similar. Though I agree having different normals is a step in the right direction.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I think I would be more tolerant of clones in SSB4 is they came in the form of DLC. If they showed up as alternate costumes in the roster with he same moveset, but different appearance and stats. So, for instance, Daisy could be a downloadable "clone" of Peach, whose "bomber" has flowers instead of hearts, and who is heavier but faster and can't float. This could be a nice way to work in, say, "Classic Link" or "Toon Link," or "Dr. Mario" and "Paper Mario."

I like this thought. Personally I don't care if it is dlc or not. I just like the thought of not calling them different characters. Granted this only works if said alternate costumes don't have similar time requirements to an all out new character. If they do, just make a new character.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

From a gameplay perspective I agree with you. From a psychological one I disagree and I think psychology is an important part of gaming. Having moves that look similiar regardless of whether they are or not, still feels lazy. If nothing else it is lazy from a visuals and concept perspective, even if it isn't from an execution stand point.

I will agree that Ganondorf isn't nearly as similiar to Captain Falcon as Dr. Mario was to Mario, but even still I don't find this resolution to be completely satisfying. To me it just feels like a step in the right direction. Nothing more nothing less. 7 May have been a bit of Hyperbole, but I suspect it won't at least be until the next one until I am satisfied with Gdorf. Of course Sakurai could always surprise me and the visuals/concept could be quite different this time around.

This is true, in my opinion. I think the confusion comes from the actual physics vs psychological aspect. The moves that they have, DO a different effect in some way. Example: Fox's Illusion has the same exact animation as Falco's Illusion. The difference here is that Falco's has a chance to meteor strike if timed right. The animations of the attacks are exactly the same, just slower or faster.

 

[[Corn]]

From a gameplay perspective I agree with you. From a psychological one I disagree and I think psychology is an important part of gaming. Having moves that look similiar regardless of whether they are or not, still feels lazy. If nothing else it is lazy from a visuals and concept perspective, even if it isn't from an execution stand point.

I will agree that Ganondorf isn't nearly as similiar to Captain Falcon as Dr. Mario was to Mario, but even still I don't find this resolution to be completely satisfying. To me it just feels like a step in the right direction. Nothing more nothing less. 7 May have been a bit of Hyperbole, but I suspect it won't at least be until the next one until I am satisfied with Gdorf. Of course Sakurai could always surprise me and the visuals/concept could be quite different this time around.

Im not denying that it is lazy, its just not as lazy as the other ones.

I only care about unique playstyles when it comes to characters. Clones in my mind dont have them. I couldnt care less about animations and such.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Im not denying that it is lazy, its just not as lazy as the other ones.

I only care about unique playstyles when it comes to characters. Clones in my mind dont have them. I couldnt care less about animations and such.

I can respect that.

 

[Artsy Omni]

While I'm not fond of clones or near-clones, I tolerate them because the charcters on which the clones are based are typically of the same universe, and share characteristics in their source. The starfox characters come to mind. Luigi is barely a clone at all anymore, if at all. Lucas COULD have had his own specials perhaps, but I don't know earthbound/mother well enough to know what other offensive PSI moves are.

But the one clone I hate is ganondorf. Because he should've never been based on c falcon in the first place. It makes literally NO sense whatsoever, and Sakurai dug himself into a hole by doing it.

But here's my mindset: if a character is so similar to an existing character that he lends himself well to being cloned... Don't include the character or come up with a unique move set...

 

[Ultinarok]

I think I would be more tolerant of clones in SSB4 is they came in the form of DLC. If they showed up as alternate costumes in the roster with he same moveset, but different appearance and stats. So, for instance, Daisy could be a downloadable "clone" of Peach, whose "bomber" has flowers instead of hearts, and who is heavier but faster and can't float. This could be a nice way to work in, say, "Classic Link" or "Toon Link," or "Dr. Mario" and "Paper Mario."

Agree except for Paper Mario. He practically represents a separate franchise with a separate set of moves completely than standard Mario. He has the potential to be so unique from Mario that they might as well not share a name at all.

Toon Link can sort of achieve this too due to an array of unique specials from his own games like the Deku Leaf and Skull Hammer, but he'd be a bit tougher to distinguish.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

While I'm not fond of clones or near-clones, I tolerate them because the charcters on which the clones are based are typically of the same universe, and share characteristics in their source. The starfox characters come to mind. Luigi is barely a clone at all anymore, if at all. Lucas COULD have had his own specials perhaps, but I don't know earthbound/mother well enough to know what other offensive PSI moves are.

But the one clone I hate is ganondorf. Because he should've never been based on c falcon in the first place. It makes literally NO sense whatsoever, and Sakurai dug himself into a hole by doing it.

But here's my mindset: if a character is so similar to an existing character that he lends himself well to being cloned... Don't include the character or come up with a unique move set...

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Agree except for Paper Mario. He practically represents a separate franchise with a separate set of moves completely than standard Mario. He has the potential to be so unique from Mario that they might as well not share a name at all.

Toon Link can sort of achieve this too due to an array of unique specials from his own games like the Deku Leaf and Skull Hammer, but he'd be a bit tougher to distinguish.

Another post that makes me want to say amen. You guys are on a roll today. My only thing with Toon Link is it would be weird to me to have a version of Link without bombs. That probably makes me a terrible hypocrite but I just can't picture it. I bet if they did unclone Toon Link fully I'd get used to it though and be happier with the result.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Aside from ganondorf, I feel like clones are often a symptom of franchise oversaturation. For instance, does Star Fox really warrant 3 character inclusions? I personally feel like it doesn't. Does there really need to be 2 Links? I dare say no. And while Lucas is kinda neat, I feel like earthbound doesn't need another rep if the series doesn't have enough source material on which to base a unique set of specials for 2 characters (not saying it doesn't, because I haven't played the games).

Broader franchise representation would solve the problem of clones, for the most part. As long as they arent willing to pull another Ganondorf... That's just ridiculous.

 

[Ultinarok]

Aside from ganondorf, I feel like clones are often a symptom of franchise oversaturation. For instance, does Star Fox really warrant 3 character inclusions? I personally feel like it doesn't. Does there really need to be 2 Links? I dare say no. And while Lucas is kinda neat, I feel like earthbound doesn't need another rep if the series doesn't have enough source material on which to base a unique set of specials for 2 characters (not saying it doesn't, because I haven't played the games).

Broader franchise representation would solve the problem of clones, for the most part. As long as they arent willing to pull another Ganondorf... That's just ridiculous.

Lucas and Ness have plenty of potential moves. In fact, most of the moves they use aren't even theirs in their own games, but belong to teammates. PK Starstorm is a key example. There are TONS of unique moves they could use. Sakurai just got kind of lazy.

Starfox may not warrant three characters, but I'm happy with it. Fox and Wolf having movesets completely inspired by creativity alone (Falco partially, and partially based on Fox of course) proves that the limits of a franchise don't have to limit movesets. Toon Link can easily be different too.

 

[Ussi]

People who say clones were terrible in melee. Well it was get these clones or not them at all. Melee was finished early and they decided to add some last minute characters by taking a base and altering them. Only reason Ganondorf got into smash.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Lucas and Ness have plenty of potential moves. In fact, most of the moves they use aren't even theirs in their own games, but belong to teammates. PK Starstorm is a key example. There are TONS of unique moves they could use. Sakurai just got kind of lazy.

Starfox may not warrant three characters, but I'm happy with it. Fox and Wolf having movesets completely inspired by creativity alone (Falco partially, and partially based on Fox of course) proves that the limits of a franchise don't have to limit movesets. Toon Link can easily be different too.

I don't disagree that clones have the potential for more unique movesets. But like I said, clones are a symptom, not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is that they're milking those franchises. Sure, they do a decent job making those characters feel different, but it doesn't change the fact that those franchises are over saturated while other franchises have potential for much more unique movesets to bring to the table.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

People who say clones were terrible in melee. Well it was get these clones or not them at all. Melee was finished early and they decided to add some last minute characters by taking a base and altering them. Only reason Ganondorf got into smash.

Regardless of the past, they have time now to change the clones. Clones are a terrible concept in general and poor game design.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Also... I don't buy the whole "the characters wouldn't have been in at all if they weren't clones" deal. Not for brawl, at least. Brawl clones had very unique standard movesets, and their specials were often different enough that they wouldn't have taken much less time than original movesets would have. Characters like wolf or ganondorf or Lucas don't lack development time. They lack design effort.

 

[Shorts]

I think Ganondorf is the reason clone is such an ugly word, truthfully. He's the only character you can realy be bitter about being a clone. (Besides Lucas maybe)

Does anyone else find it strange that Lucas was probably one of th fist characters made in Brawl, and he still had definite clone aspects to him?

 

[bobadz]

The thing about the Clones in melee, is that they were never meant to be in the game. They were added because Sakurai and his team finished the game early. They said they could of added one completely new character, or a bunch of clones. They chose the clone option because they wanted the roster to be bigger. If they didn't add clones the only clone would Luigi, which explains why he was different then how he was in 64.

 

[peeup]

I don't have the source, but I'm pretty sure Sakurai has said that the amount of time it takes to put in 1 original character is roughly the amount of time it takes to put in 6 clones, or whatever the number is. If it were up to me, I'd sac one newcomer from Smash 4 in place of 6 boring clones.

Yes, that's right. I'd rather have clones.

So long as they really tweak the stats around, like say having a super speedy vs a super heavy clone.

Also, clones have better odds of being in the next installment, I think. Who knows if Ganondorf, Falco, or Toon Linke (clearly inspired by Young Link) would have been in Brawl if not in Melee? And Roy and Doc were both planned, as were Plusle and Minun (the 3rd gen, spiritual successor to Pichu.)

I like big rosters, and so I like clones. It's more fun to unlock more characters.

 

[Artsy Omni]

I don't have the source, but I'm pretty sure Sakurai has said that the amount of time it takes to put in 1 original character is roughly the amount of time it takes to put in 6 clones,

I REALLY don't buy that statistic. Not with brawl clones.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Clones most often come from a lack of time. All of the Melee clones (minus Luigi) came into existence that way, and I'm fairly certain Toon Link and Wolf's minimally altered specials also came that way.

It's understandable from a game developing perspective, but I still hope that we'll be rid of them in SSB4 and the rest of the clones will be made unique. Brawl took a good step towards that, let SSB4 finish it I say.

I think Ganondorf is the reason clone is such an ugly word, truthfully. He's the only character you can realy be bitter about being a clone. (Besides Lucas maybe)

Does anyone else find it strange that Lucas was probably one of th fist characters made in Brawl, and he still had definite clone aspects to him?

Just a theory, but maybe he was meant to replace Ness as was originally the plan in Melee, but Ness was brought back anyways to not cause too much of an outrage.

 

[bobadz]

I'm just angry Lucas and toon link could have been unique, but they were not.