Why is Bowser considered low tier?

[robosteven]

I know we've moved past this already, but I'd like to take a swing at the OP.

It's because he has a enormous hurtbox, has perfect combo weight for like everyone, and requires a large amount of commitment for a lot of his attacks, most/all of which are super punishable and can result in getting combo'd to death, all on top of a just-okay recovery.

However, I still think he's really good and I sincerely think 3.5 was an improvement for him. I'd like to see some moves sped up a little bit (faster jab, frame 7 grab instead of frame 9, you get the idea), seeing as the jumpsquat change is one of the best things to happen to the character.

also on a semi-related note the Puff mu is hilarious because rest and because Puff dies in like three hits but I don't think Bowser shuts down Puff, at least not like G&W does.

 

[OnFullTilt]

I know we've moved past this already, but I'd like to take a swing at the OP.

It's because he has a enormous hurtbox, has perfect combo weight for like everyone, and requires a large amount of commitment for a lot of his attacks, most/all of which are super punishable and can result in getting combo'd to death, all on top of a just-okay recovery.

However, I still think he's really good and I sincerely think 3.5 was an improvement for him. I'd like to see some moves sped up a little bit (faster jab, frame 7 grab instead of frame 9, you get the idea), seeing as the jumpsquat change is one of the best things to happen to the character.

also on a semi-related note the Puff mu is hilarious because rest and because Puff dies in like three hits but I don't think Bowser shuts down Puff, at least not like G&W does.

There are some other reasons too. Keep in mind I'm not the most experienced Bowser so I may be spewing some nonsense-
His spotdodge is absolute garbage so even if you spotdodge a grab the opponent can punish that... by grabbing again. He can safely spotdodge a few grabs successfully, Olimar's probably being one of them (but it's not like anyone plays Olimar right?). His horrible spotdodge leads to Bowser being even weaker to grabs than he would otherwise be just due to being big and (in some areas) slow. Bowser also has very few dependable and not niche KO moves that aren't really risky due to start up or endlag. He is fantastic at edgeguarding but in the end he needs to be since his onstage KO options, while devastating when they do hit, are often pretty difficult to actually land.

That being said I think he is in fact really good, and that the only reason for Bowser's placement is that the majority of the cast is simply even better. I'm honestly a little hesitant over buffing jab speed since the move is already a really good move. Something I might in fact buff the speed of is the sideB. There is a bit of a problem when people can spotdodge a command grab on reaction in my books.

 

[robosteven]

the issue with Bowser's spotdodge is that its cooldown makes him unable to even do anything after actually dodging something. Pretty sure Ganon used to be the same way and then they buffed it for 3.5 (unless I'm mistaken).

DK's is pretty bad too, but it's not quite as bad, and DK has those throw setups and much easier quick hits.

Bowser's fair and nair are reliable though.

 

[OnFullTilt]

the issue with Bowser's spotdodge is that its cooldown makes him unable to even do anything after actually dodging something. Pretty sure Ganon used to be the same way and then they buffed it for 3.5 (unless I'm mistaken).

DK's is pretty bad too, but it's not quite as bad, and DK has those throw setups and much easier quick hits.

Bowser's fair and nair are reliable though.

Can't find the spotdodge chart I saw before but there are two problems with Bowser's spotdodge. The first is that practically every character becomes invulnerable on frame 2 of their spotdodge. Captain Falcon's is on frame 3 and he is almost unique in having something later than 2 frames. Bowser becomes invulnerable only on frame 4. The second thing is that while most characters have to wait 12 frames after their spotdodge invulnerability before they can act, Bowser has to wait 22 frames I believe, as you referenced.

The thing is that the nair is reliable, but it doesn't have enough knockback to really be an onstage KO move. The fair is a great KO move if you hit with the small tipper hitbox, but it's only pretty good if you don't. Also being in the air is inherently risky for Bowser, and he obviously has to be in the air to use fair.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, Bowser's spotdodge animation is a frame longer than Fox's usmash.

 

[Sartron]

Can't find the spotdodge chart I saw before but there are two problems with Bowser's spotdodge. The first is that practically every character becomes invulnerable on frame 2 of their spotdodge. Captain Falcon's is on frame 3 and he is almost unique in having something later than 2 frames. Bowser becomes invulnerable only on frame 4. The second thing is that while most characters have to wait 12 frames after their spotdodge invulnerability before they can act, Bowser has to wait 22 frames I believe, as you referenced.

Bowser is invulnerable on frame 3, and he waits 12 frames in cool down, not 22.

Yeah, Bowser's spotdodge animation is a frame longer than Fox's usmash.

Bowser's spot dodge is 32 frames.
Fox's up smash is 41 frames.

wut is going on in this thread

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser's spot dodge is 32 frames.
Fox's up smash is 41 frames.

wut is going on in this thread

I was going off this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/

Didn't realize it was out of date, sorry.

The dodge is still pretty godawful, but 32 is a hell of an improvement. I don't remember reading about that in the patch notes - was this a stealth change or was it never 42 in the first place? Either way, I'll take a tie with CF. Still never using the spotdodge on purpose, though. >_>

 

[Sartron]

I was going off this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/

Didn't realize it was out of date, sorry.

The dodge is still pretty godawful, but 32 is a hell of an improvement. I don't remember reading about that in the patch notes - was this a stealth change or was it never 42 in the first place? Either way, I'll take a tie with CF. Still never using the spotdodge on purpose, though. >_>

It's never been 42 frames, the guy probably just hit 4 instead of 3. I've never trusted that thread, really wish the OP of it was someone who actually cared to work on it. Being stickied makes it appear more trustworthy than it actually is and is quite misleading.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That's fair enough. It's pretty easy to credit Bowser's spotdodge with being worse than it actually is, due to his overall weakness to grabs - which may be why I was so ready to believe it.

As an option, bowser's dodge still loses to most characters' standing grabs in any case. I've started replacing all my spotdodges with up-B's to ledge, and it seems better in almost literally every situation.

@ Sartron thank you for being the Batman of frame data

 

[OnFullTilt]

Well dip me in butter and call me a liar, sorry guys. I heard it enough times to believe it.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Just posting as a Marth main, who plays against Bowser regularly, Bowser is really good. I picked Bowser up for a few hours, and he feels amazing. The problem is that you shouldn't play him like Melee bowser at all. And that his matchups are polarizing. He beats Marth/Roy, goes (at least) even with spacies, and wrecks anyone who is super light, ala jiggs or whatever. Crouch cancel/crawl is such an amazing mechanic that gets a bit underused. i.e. vs Marth, Bowser can crawl to cancel out Marth's attack based approaches, and dtilt outspaces his grab. Marth has to pysch the Bowser out into missing an attack in order to get in. I think Bowser's a good character, definitely in the upper half of the cast, but he does have big matchup weaknesses. Sheik wrecks him, a smart Captain Falcon wrecks him, but in return, he wins a ton of matchups and has one of the best movesets in the game. His option coverage is totally insane (short hop upair covering entire platforms on most maps, get up attack below 100%, etc) and his recovery is pretty good if you sweetspot consistently when going for ledge. He can easily live to 150-200% or higher, especially against characters that can't stuff his recovery properly (like Sheik can).

Adding to that, I think Bowser thrives on people that play a Melee style. Like spacies that go in with drillshines, etc. Crouch it, punish with whatever you want. Marths that DD a lot? Just use armor to approach and cut off his DD space. Peach is actually a pretty interesting matchup here, but I think Bowser wins it soundly with good armored OOS options like nair, and his ability to combo into uair is super powerful against most characters.

On that note though, Bowser has amazing, some of the best in the game, toolkits, but also has some of the biggest weaknesses. He is a character of extremes, but with smart, consistent play, his weaknesses can be mitigated and made difficult to exploit, while his strengths are often extremely difficult for much of the cast to deal with. This does make his matchups quite polarized, but that's much the nature of PM. Being a true 1 character main is not an efficient approach to this game.

 

[Osmosis124]

The problem with your explanation to approaching Marth is you never mentioned how punishable Bowser is. Crawl doesn't go through everything. I pretty sure Marth can just Fsmash and knock Bowser down. Dash attack is Super easy to bait, justblock it or wave dash back.

I'm very sure every character on the roster has a way to stuff out Up B with the use of the ledge, tbh if bowser is constantly living that like the player probably has a hard time killing in general. The man is combo food to the max you can get like a good 70% off a grab constantly.

Also you're not really explaining anything, what style should Bowser's play if not melee (I don't even know what you're trying to say there), How can Bowser's weakness of having the largest hitbox mitigated? What's his toolkit?

 

[Jacob29]

Bruh don't go trying to crouch Falco's shine.

That would be a very unwise thing to do.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Stuff and things

Don't crouch shines. Dash Attack them. I agree about the Spacies/Swordsmen MUs though. They've always felt really manageable.

The reason Bowser struggles in the Sheik/Falcon MU is because most Bowser's feed their brutal punish games. Both can take a stock with a grab combo if they don't drop it. Bowsers just need to stop Dash Attacking on impulse and commit less. Running crouch->Jab/D-tilt is a safer poke at least. Dash Attack is great but it's better used on reaction.

Also we can combo Captain Falcon+Spacies to death as long as we don't drop OUR combos. They're also pretty much free edgeguards.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

I agree^

Bowser's main thing is he HAS to control the stage. I feel like he does great vs Fox/Falco/Marth, which are a ton of players, since those are probably the 3 most popular melee players. Conversely, there are many characters he struggles with, but most of them are new, mostly unexplored characters.

To explain my previous points, Marth's tippers dont go through Bowser's crouch/crawl, unless maybe I'm getting armor from something else in startup. It can be tough to tell when I'm not the one initiating the different armors.

Up B OOS is risky for Bowser IMO because it can be baited pretty easily. Swordsmen can space so that their shield comes up in time, and then grab and punish. Bowser can take a hit, it's getting grabbed that wrecks him. If I'm a Bowser, I'm going out of my way to avoid doing anything that can get grabbed as a staple technique. But I'm mostly a Marth/Roy player, so I can only really speak to it from that perspective.

 

[Mr. Bones]

If the tippers aren't going through your crouch...or even weaker crawl armor, then you're probably at a much lower percent. That shouldn't work at mid/high percents.