Why is Bowser considered low tier?

[Marthmario]

Every where I go, I keep hearing murmurs of Bowser being a really bad character in PM, is this true?

 

[Jacob29]

because he gets combo'd extremely badly, has poor mixups from dash dancing, and can be camped/baited out pretty easily.

 

[Eisen]

Also, while some people don't agree, I tend to think his recovery is terrible.

 

[Jacob29]

It is terrible.

 

[EarthenPillar]

because he gets combo'd extremely badly, has poor mixups from dash dancing, and can be camped/baited out pretty easily.

This^ Basically.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Not enough people take the time to play him and learn to overcome his weaknesses. He has just a little too many bad matchups and he can be camped out easy.

Don't listen to what people have to say about him. His recovery is great, he lives forever and he can do some f*cked up **** even in top level gameplay. The only reason why he is bad is because people don't play him and are too stuck on wishing certain attributes are better when they should really be focusing on exploiting his advantageous attributes he gained from PM. I can't necessarily comment on his spot in the tier list but most do not understand enough and would just rather generalize and throw em in the low tiers

 

[Jacob29]

You say that like those of us that are still playing Bowser aren't trying.

I have mained Bowser since I played PM and I still do, he is still my most played and go-to character in tournaments.

His recovery isn't great. It's extremely linear and gets beaten out by a lot of things. Heck even a marth f-smash can hit you recovering and I'm not even sure if a sweetspot can save you from it as Bowser has to practically be level with the stage to grab the ledge. Sheik's needles beat it the list is endless of what will gimp you from it. It's vertical height is piss poor and it's horizontal range is OK and pretty good. The good thing about Bowser's recovery is that once he gets to the ledge a lot of options open up, but getting to the ledge isn't an easy task vs competent opponents.

The reason he is bad isn't because we don't play him, he just really isn't that good. There is a reason I assume Nick Riddle doesn't solely play Bowser in tournament and thats because some chars hose him Really REALLY REALLY badly.

He is, at the moment, a counter-pick character and that is all. If you try to solely main him and him alone you are not going to do very well and will eventually run into some awful MUs.

he does have some strengths, and he is way better than in melee, but so are a lot of characters.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Before I rip this apart, keep in mind, I'm pretty much the only guy on this board that thinks Bowser's at least slightly viable...but not by much. >_>

Not enough people take the time to play him and learn to overcome his weaknesses. He has just a little too many bad matchups and he can be camped out easy.

Yes, people can play Bowser and be really good at the game or "overcome" his weaknesses. However, they can take that same amount of skill and use it to highlight a better character's strengths and worry about less weaknesses to overcome. Just because someone can play him at that kind of a level doesn't make him any easier to play as. It's hard as balls!

Don't listen to what people have to say about him. His recovery is great, he lives forever and he can do some f*cked up **** even in top level gameplay.

LMAO. Recovery is great...? His recovery is balanced maybe, compared to stupid **** like Diddy Kong's. I wouldn't have a problem with it if everyone else had at least a similarly bad recovery. He doesn't live forever unless people let you back on stage. You can get knocked around until 180% just fine, but that doesn't mean you're getting back on the ledge. Yes, he can do some ****ed up **** with his quake boxes and other tools that people don't use enough....but other characters can do more. Because speed/better frame data/projectiles.

The only reason why he is bad is because people don't play him and are too stuck on wishing certain attributes are better when they should really be focusing on exploiting his advantageous attributes he gained from PM.

No, the reason he's bad is because he has poor frame data, a "meh" dash speed and isn't great at approaching because of this. The armored attacks, with the exception of maybe Nair for defense, are slow and punishable. They're great defenses, and F-smash is still a beautiful diamond in the rough(It punishes perfect spacing, which is great!). The fact remains, that top-level players that know the MU can give Bowser a really ****ty time and run circles around him. The reason we focus on the bad attributes, is because those same attributes are what make Bowser fairly easy to beat when you know what you're doing.

I can't necessarily comment on his spot in the tier list but most do not understand enough and would just rather generalize and throw em in the low tiers

What do you understand about him? Have you topped big P:M tournaments with him? How many?

I understand a lot about Bowser. Just short of knowing all of his frame data by heart, I understand him. I've mained him solely in PM since it's release. He has a lot of flaws that are completely unnecessary and make him nearly impossible to play at Top level. He has a lot of unique tools that make him interesting to play and come up with new combos for him...but he still has a really poor neutral game.

My amazing skill and talent can only do so much for this loveable lumbering brute. ;( He needs some improvements. I do think 3.5 will be better for him with the coming nerf of recoveries that was promised. I just really hope they tweaked him some as far as speed goes. Just a little extra speed/improved frame data would be the slight push he needs.

 

[Matthew]

I honestly think that Bowser is good and very underrated. If you can just predict the opponent than you can do serious damage. A lot of matchups that seem difficult for Bowser can be dealt with. I used to think that the Lucario, Marth, and Lucas matchups were almost impossible for Bowser, but one I began to abuse crouch-cancelling, I did much better. The Lucario matchup may seem to be in Lucario's favor, but once Lucario is offstage, the tables are turned and he can easily be edgeguarded by soo many of Bowser's attacks. I honestly think that the Marth matchup is definitely in Bowser's favor. Crouch-cancelling is very effective in countering Marth's approaches and down-tilt is extremley effective in edgeguarding him. Lucas, on the other hand, is a bit more difficult, but still doable. Crouch-cancelling can be rendered less effective because of Lucas' dair and grab approaches, however, Bowser still has many tools to edgeguard him. His ledge attack is great for countering the tether recovery.

 

[zpxociv]

I swear, it's like the posters claiming that Bowser is good are just spacies mainers or whatever that want to keep other characters down so PM can be like melee where only a few characters are truly viable. There's no good argument to defend such claims and it only leaves one to suspect an ulterior motive. PM devs should address this issue if they don't want PM to decline into total obscurity. Maybe the PM devs themselves are part of the conspiracy, because otherwise what were they even thinking with Bowser?

 

[Jacob29]

I honestly think that Bowser is good and very underrated. If you can just predict the opponent than you can do serious damage. A lot of matchups that seem difficult for Bowser can be dealt with. I used to think that the Lucario, Marth, and Lucas matchups were almost impossible for Bowser, but one I began to abuse crouch-cancelling, I did much better. The Lucario matchup may seem to be in Lucario's favor, but once Lucario is offstage, the tables are turned and he can easily be edgeguarded by soo many of Bowser's attacks. I honestly think that the Marth matchup is definitely in Bowser's favor. Crouch-cancelling is very effective in countering Marth's approaches and down-tilt is extremley effective in edgeguarding him. Lucas, on the other hand, is a bit more difficult, but still doable. Crouch-cancelling can be rendered less effective because of Lucas' dair and grab approaches, however, Bowser still has meny tools to edgeguard him.

Pretty sure against CC marth can either

a) grab and get easy setups on Bowser
b) dash attack at like 50%. It doesn't take long for Marth to get 50% on us.

Works a charm before that though.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

I swear, it's like the posters claiming that Bowser is good are just spacies mainers or whatever that want to keep other characters down so PM can be like melee where only a few characters are truly viable. There's no good argument to defend such claims and it only leaves one to suspect an ulterior motive. PM devs should address this issue if they don't want PM to decline into total obscurity. Maybe the PM devs themselves are part of the conspiracy, because otherwise what were they even thinking with Bowser?

PM devs HAVE addressed this! Look at the countless buffs he's received since melee! He's a touchy character and they really need to make sure he has his faults solidified, otherwise he'll just be running around near ohko-ing everything.. Fox is ridiculous and all, but he gets insanely murdered by simple gimmick executions while he needs to be much more precise and quick in order to be rewarded

 

[AUS]

He's nowhere near as bad as he is in both Melee and Brawl however he really gets destroyed in some match-ups. For one he can easily be combo'd by any fast character (Space Animals being the worst, Bowser gets shined until he starts crying). This is mainly due to him being so slow and the majority of his moves being very slow and having an insane amount of lag afterwards, this causes many easy punishes to be placed upon him. Due to his speed up B is one of the most used moves since it is so fast however is has way less kill potential than other Bowser moves, his grabs aren't too bad either if you ask me. Second his recovery is incredibly bad that it really limits his potential as a good character, he can so easily be edge guarded and when hes low enough off the stage there is no way hes coming back, which is unusual since most characters in PM have such amazing recoveries hence PM being called Project Recovery at times. I honestly don't think he is terrible though since the PM dev team did a good job with him but its for these reasons that I and many others would still consider him to be low tier.

Sorry Bowser

 

[zpxociv]

Bowser is still missing the tools needed to properly compete, simple as that. I'd like to see a PM dev come in here and rationalize that Bowser does in fact have what's needed... better yet, a video of him beating a good Fox. Saying he's better than melee Bowser means nothing, melee Bowser is a total bottom feeder and in PM everyone else is that much more dangerous, making it the same result of Bowser being a bottom feeder that's just in a bigger pool of meaner fish.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

So you're assuming Bowser players don't beat good foxes? Dig harder in tournament results please. Spacies struggle to consistent good placing in Tri-state unless you're Chillin's wolf or something. I've taken Zero's fox out before 3.5 and Envy on multiple occasions, and have gotten really close to beating Hax's.. though he only plays PM for fun. It's a hard matchup for Bowser but it really doesn't seem like you're speaking from personal experience of playing this character in tournament

 

[deadjames]

PM devs HAVE addressed this! Look at the countless buffs he's received since melee! He's a touchy character and they really need to make sure he has his faults solidified, otherwise he'll just be running around near ohko-ing everything.. Fox is ridiculous and all, but he gets insanely murdered by simple gimmick executions while he needs to be much more precise and quick in order to be rewarded

I mean Bowser is definitely better than Melee, but he's not good, he used to be from 2.1 to 2.6, but he's received almost nothing but nerfs since 2.1, he's been unplayable since 3.0 imo. Even in Melee Bowser has ok MUs against spacies, it's like everyone else that's the problem, imo Bowser's only positive MU in PM is Puff, he has a couple even ones, but they're mostly bad.

 

[Matthew]

Pretty sure against CC marth can either

a) grab and get easy setups on Bowser
b) dash attack at like 50%. It doesn't take long for Marth to get 50% on us.

Works a charm before that though.

I agree with you, but if you crouch cancel with the shield button, often times Marth will miss the grab because you will end up spot-dodging.

 

[deadjames]

How does one CC with the shield button?

 

[Jacob29]

Bowsers spotdodge sucks real bad... Plz no.

Also deadjames 3.5 Bowser got some real nice buffs in a patch where everyone else got needed.

 

[TheTwistedHero]

He actually isnt all too bad. There are no real bad characters in PM. He has a ton of power, and can play a very scary defense

 

[Matthew]

How does one CC with the shield button?

What I meant is that you press the shield button while you hold down to crouch cancel. This way you can pullout your shield or tech if you are hit.

 

[deadjames]

Bowsers spotdodge sucks real bad... Plz no.

Also deadjames 3.5 Bowser got some real nice buffs in a patch where everyone else got needed.

He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless and then more nerfs.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Just about all of his armor is buffed. That's more than enough. His wavedash/land/movement got a huge buff as well

 

[Jacob29]

He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless and then more nerfs.

Hmm dunmo what you mean.

Jump squat was good, dash attack was good, then there wasn't really any nerfs

 

[deadjames]

Dash attack, fortress, and dsmash got nerfed and the armor buffs didn't really help at all because armor still gets shut down by grabs. The jump squat buff was nice, but Bowser still sucks.

 

[Frost | Odds]

He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless.

Have you ever tried putting a bit of effort into learning what you're talking about before spouting nonsense?

Bowser is still pretty terrible compared to most of the cast, but pretending that he's anywhere near as useless as in 3.0 is incredibly silly.

Just about all of his armor is buffed. That's more than enough.

In some matchups, sort of.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

@ deadjames dash attack's distance got buffed what do you mean LOL it's messed up on so many levels now if you're able to throw it out without getting grabbed

 

[deadjames]

Have you ever tried putting a bit of effort into learning what you're talking about before spouting nonsense?

Bowser is still pretty terrible compared to most of the cast, but pretending that he's anywhere near as useless as in 3.0 is incredibly silly.

Bowser is definitely worse than 3.0, imo. Because of the fortress nerf he's way more susceptible to platform pressure, since fortressing off a platform sends you into special fall it's no longer safe to up-b OoS if someone hits your shield from below since the hitbox doesn't stay active.Wait what? I never said it's distance got buffed.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

I'm saying it did get buffed, in response to you saying it got nerfed. I'll take 3.5 dash attack over the old one any day he needs that distance even if it is predictable

 

[deadjames]

I think it's worse now, it only hits once now so it's less safe on hit and shield. Granted it's always been bad, Bowser has way better things he could be doing in most situations.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Christopher Rodriguez gimme your skype id pls, we need another decent bowser in the skype chat

deadjames, I don't know what to tell you, other than if you're using dash attack against shielding opponents, you're doing something horribly wrong.

 

[deadjames]

Did you even read my goddamn post?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I read a lot of things.

he's been unplayable since 3.0 imo.

imo Bowser's only positive MU in PM is Puff

He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless and then more nerfs.

Dash attack has always been bad

When you're simply, factually wrong on this regular of a basis, it's probably time to slow down, take some deep breaths, and do some reading. I don't claim to know definitively if Bowser has any positive matchups, but if he does, Puff isn't the one.

Dash attack and fortress are both better than in 3.0 overall. Dash attack single handedly carries Bowser through a lot of previously unwinnable matchups, like Link and Ivysaur - due to the extra distance and the new unclankable property, it's a very reliable punish on a lot of projectiles that Bowser simply couldn't do anything about before. UpB's new special fall property is pretty annoying, I agree entirely; but you're overreacting here.

If someone hits your shield from below, shield dropping on top of them is typically a pretty good option.

Why do you feel like dsmash is worse now? It's an amazing kill move against floaties now.

 

[deadjames]

If you think Bowser doesn't beat Puff that's going to require a deeper explanation, here's why I think he does: she can't challenge anything he throws, most of his active hitboxes are bigger than her entire hurtbox, and he kills her so ridiculously early that you can rested on purpose just to come back and get a free fsmash kill when you have a lead, Puff edgeguards Bowser for free, but she has to do a ton of work in neutral to achieve that end.

I just reread the changelog and I guess dsmash is better now, it has less base knockback, but higher knockback growth.

I still stand by my opinion that dash attack is a bad move, if it's winning you entire MUs then you're playing against bad players, if a Link or Ivy get punished by it for throwing projectiles that's their fault for having poor spacing.

Shield dropping is an options, yes, but I personally have a hard time doing it consistently in PM, I don't know if that's just a me thing or what, but I find it way easier in Melee.

 

[scruffy powershell]

Not enough people take the time to play him and learn to overcome his weaknesses. He has just a little too many bad matchups and he can be camped out easy.

Don't listen to what people have to say about him. His recovery is great, he lives forever and he can do some f*cked up **** even in top level gameplay. The only reason why he is bad is because people don't play him and are too stuck on wishing certain attributes are better when they should really be focusing on exploiting his advantageous attributes he gained from PM. I can't necessarily comment on his spot in the tier list but most do not understand enough and would just rather generalize and throw em in the low tiers

You are my hero

 

[Frost | Odds]

If you think Bowser doesn't beat Puff that's going to require a deeper explanation

It's an extremely volatile matchup, so much so that even though I main Bowser in PM and Puff in Melee, I don't consider myself qualified to say who is favored or by how much - though my instinct is that it's near even.

Regardless, I'm extremely confident that Bowser has better matchups than Puff, whether he 'wins' against her or not.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

You are my hero

I'm glad you think so. I speak the truth.. from tons of tournament experience. A lot of his matchups aren't the greatest but he's a clutch tournament character

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm glad you think so. I speak the truth.. from tons of tournament experience. A lot of his matchups aren't the greatest but he's a clutch tournament character

Indeed. I'll expound a bit for anyone else reading:

1. Low tech skill floor. Though optimally Bowser should be played with a lot of highly precise stuff like perfect wavelands, pivot jabs, klaw cancels, etc -- you can get by in a lot of matchups just by playing a very simple, defensive CC dtilt, fair, dash attack, upB based style. This lets you avoid a lot of the physical (ie. on your hands) and mental fatigue that occurs inevitably over the course of a tournament.

2. Bowser is terrifying to play against. Opponents tend to get nerves against Bowser - both because he's got the stigma of being a bad character (and nobody wants to lose to a low tier) and because there's a bunch of ways he can kill you at very low %. A lot of people react totally incorrectly to this and will try to rush you down, which is of course exactly what bowser wants.

3. The matchup is weird. Most people don't really understand how to properly play against bowser, and will get confused when you armor through their moves, Klaw them from the air, or kill them with downB ledgehogs. Experience in other matchups doesn't translate to doing well against Bowser as well as it might, so you're liable to get some wins simply because the opponent has no idea what he's supposed to do, or what Bowser's capabilities are.

So in tournament, he's kinda got a Melee Jigglypuff effect where he loses most matchups (and some of them pretty badly) but the mental pressure he puts on his opponent is exhausting and nerve-wracking to play against, so he has a bunch of metagame advantages, despite the in-game disadvantages.

 

[deadjames]

Regardless, I'm extremely confident that Bowser has better matchups than Puff, whether he 'wins' against her or not.

Like?

Indeed. I'll expound a bit for anyone else reading:

1. Low tech skill floor. Though optimally Bowser should be played with a lot of highly precise stuff like perfect wavelands, pivot jabs, klaw cancels, etc -- you can get by in a lot of matchups just by playing a very simple, defensive CC dtilt, fair, dash attack, upB based style. This lets you avoid a lot of the physical (ie. on your hands) and mental fatigue that occurs inevitably over the course of a tournament.

2. Bowser is terrifying to play against. Opponents tend to get nerves against Bowser - both because he's got the stigma of being a bad character (and nobody wants to lose to a low tier) and because there's a bunch of ways he can kill you at very low %. A lot of people react totally incorrectly to this and will try to rush you down, which is of course exactly what bowser wants.

3. The matchup is weird. Most people don't really understand how to properly play against bowser, and will get confused when you armor through their moves, Klaw them from the air, or kill them with downB ledgehogs. Experience in other matchups doesn't translate to doing well against Bowser as well as it might, so you're liable to get some wins simply because the opponent has no idea what he's supposed to do, or what Bowser's capabilities are.

So in tournament, he's kinda got a Melee Jigglypuff effect where he loses most matchups (and some of them pretty badly) but the mental pressure he puts on his opponent is exhausting and nerve-wracking to play against, so he has a bunch of metagame advantages, despite the in-game disadvantages.

1. Every character requires precise tech skill at a high level

2. Bowser is not terrifying to play against at all, I love when people go Bowser against me, it's basically a free win because he's so easy to abuse

3. Banking on lack of MU knowledge only further serves to prove that Bowser is bad because his biggest chance of winning relies on the opponent not knowing according to this.

Bowser is not at all like Melee Puff, even though she loses to the top tiers she absolutely destroys that majority of the cast, Bowser doesn't have good MUs.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Indeed. I'll expound a bit for anyone else reading:

1. Low tech skill floor. Though optimally Bowser should be played with a lot of highly precise stuff like perfect wavelands, pivot jabs, klaw cancels, etc -- you can get by in a lot of matchups just by playing a very simple, defensive CC dtilt, fair, dash attack, upB based style. This lets you avoid a lot of the physical (ie. on your hands) and mental fatigue that occurs inevitably over the course of a tournament.

2. Bowser is terrifying to play against. Opponents tend to get nerves against Bowser - both because he's got the stigma of being a bad character (and nobody wants to lose to a low tier) and because there's a bunch of ways he can kill you at very low %. A lot of people react totally incorrectly to this and will try to rush you down, which is of course exactly what bowser wants.

3. The matchup is weird. Most people don't really understand how to properly play against bowser, and will get confused when you armor through their moves, Klaw them from the air, or kill them with downB ledgehogs. Experience in other matchups doesn't translate to doing well against Bowser as well as it might, so you're liable to get some wins simply because the opponent has no idea what he's supposed to do, or what Bowser's capabilities are.

So in tournament, he's kinda got a Melee Jigglypuff effect where he loses most matchups (and some of them pretty badly) but the mental pressure he puts on his opponent is exhausting and nerve-wracking to play against, so he has a bunch of metagame advantages, despite the in-game disadvantages.

This is spot on