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Why I think Sonic may prove to be top tier.

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
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Look at Captain Falcon in Melee. He had low priority but was the fastest character all around, but he would be a character that would get many hits in. If you Attack your opponent on the surprise, priority wont be an issue. And Sonic is a very mindgameable character, with his tricky speed, and look a like dashes that would get people a bit confused and always guessing. Keep your opponent guessing to win with Sonic, and that's what I'll do, once I get my hands on the game. So far I have more strategies with Sonic than any other character I can think of, so Im thinking Sonic will be my main character.
 

RedrappeR

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
294
lol im not even going to read all of that ^^^^^^^^^
You probably came from Gamefaqs didn't you.

EDIT: I should probably also say, Hedgedawg, I'm not trying to start a fight with you, I'm saying that this is how your coming off more than anything. More than one person is seeing this. It honestly seems like you're trying to get attention at this point-- and I'm not trying to be smarmy, because I'd love to have a debate on his usability. But when the person I'm debating just doesn't back off of a vouch that we've already moved off of-- It's kind of a sign that he's trying to push his opinions on other people rather than persuade or inform.

At this point, we're past the kill move thing. Get over it. It's done with, people found way's to get around it already. You don't like it? Boo hoo.

Can we move on to something more interesting, which whenever someone brings up seems to just get dropped off entirely after like 3 posts? His priority. We've already seen multiple videos of him getting around the whole Kill move fiasco-- and racking up damage with particular moves, saving one for a kill(or other methods I've failed to mention.)-- Can we PLEASE move onto something PROGRESSIVE. THAT'S what' I'm talking about.

2 last notes:

1. Spare your TL;DR's. Don't bother posting if you're gonna be an idiot. You're wasting space. I mean Jesus Christ, was the idiot I quoted before the Edit DEVOID of any interaction between a message board before this one? I barely wrote three paragraphs! You're really gonna TL;DR that? What are you, five f uckin years old, you're too brain dead to read a small bit of that? Jesus people. Grow up.
2. Once again, not a hit at your Integrity Hdawg(which I think me ranting it starting to sound like, which I apologize for. I tend to go on tangents and rub off the wrong way during explanations.) -- But please, don't post an excuse like "Getting past Luigi is impossible." No it's not. If you suck, yes it is. But if ****ing Samus can get 2nd place in an Imba game like Melee over a Fox or Falco even-- it puzzles me how it's "impossible" to get past a character, this early in the game... unless your controller is made of dead fetuses that don't respond to your Wii. Is that it? Are you playing with dead babies Hedgedawg? Because that's just sick.






...you *******...
 

Lyoncet

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
130
That's a good point about characters that are more able to avoid gimping. Which characters are those? Pit's got ungodly recovery, but he goes into freefall if you hit him during his up-b. Metaknight's got literally unlimited recovery, but he's so light that it seems like it would hardly take more than one well-placed homing attack to knock him out. Snake I can see being a big issue, along with Luigi. Maybe DeDeDe as well because of his heavy weight, multi-jumps, and really, really nice up-b.

All in all, I think that Sonic's reliance on gimping makes some characters really good counters for him, but I don't think that having a few good counter characters warrants declaring a character sub-par. Hell, I'm a Luigi fan through and through; the fact that the Spacies eat him for dinner doesn't make me see him as a worse character in my eyes, it just makes me not use Luigi against the Spacies.

I do see where you're coming from though. Are there any other nigh-unto ungimpable characters?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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That's a good point about characters that are more able to avoid gimping. Which characters are those? Pit's got ungodly recovery, but he goes into freefall if you hit him during his up-b. Metaknight's got literally unlimited recovery, but he's so light that it seems like it would hardly take more than one well-placed homing attack to knock him out. Snake I can see being a big issue, along with Luigi. Maybe DeDeDe as well because of his heavy weight, multi-jumps, and really, really nice up-b.

All in all, I think that Sonic's reliance on gimping makes some characters really good counters for him, but I don't think that having a few good counter characters warrants declaring a character sub-par. Hell, I'm a Luigi fan through and through; the fact that the Spacies eat him for dinner doesn't make me see him as a worse character in my eyes, it just makes me not use Luigi against the Spacies.

I do see where you're coming from though. Are there any other nigh-unto ungimpable characters?
snake is probably his biggest promblem... look at this.
-snake is pretty much unnable to be killed by sonic through standard means until about 200 damage
-snake is very difficult, if not impossible to gimp.
-snake can kill sonic at sub 100% damage.
-snake has higher priority, longer range and stronger moves.
He doesn't just counter sonic, he shuts him down thus far.

as for luigi, it's sometimes possible to gimp him by walling his FB... but one missfire has the ability to kill sonic or at least get him away... and luigi should be countering well enough on the stage that sonic doesn't win this matchup.

kirby is ungimpable, and just about as good as luigi on the ground.

metaknight is almost impossible for sonic to get inside with his crap priority and metaknight's disjointed hitboxes and small size. add the fact that he's hard to gimp and sonic ain't got much he can do. I mean, it doesn't take a lot to kill him, but the problem is that he's REALLY good at stopping sonic from even doing that little bit.

Dedede is actually not a bad matchup for sonic... I mean, it's not great, but sonic has a shot against him for being so big and slow.

sonic's homing attack BTW, is easy for most humans to get around. and it doesn't pack the punch you want most of the time. and the spring drop (I refuse to call it a spring spike becasue it doesn't spike at all.) has really bad knockback... so in many situations it won't do anything to stop a character from coming back... the exceptions are hitting early against the character's up+B or hitting when an enemy is right under a stage lip and so bounces off for a spike effect.... which can also be acheived occasionally with a homing attack... because of this, I'm thinking that stages with lips might be good stages for sonic to choose.

but, looking at the tentative teirt lists, it looks like most people at the top are saying that sonic is in the lowest teir possible... I'm hopeful we can dig him out, but I mean pros are seeing NOTHING from him. I'm kinda curious as to why this is because, I mean, they are the cream of the crop, you'd think that they'd find some of the things we did and wouldn't put him tied for dead last.


edit: I'm not sure how much I need to be telling you this, but if you've played brawl, you've probably noticed that gimping in general is MUCH more difficult than it was in melee. it's not near as much a part of the gameplay.
 

Pathetiqu3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 3, 2004
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Scranton, Pa
I played Sonic again, poorly, at this week's tournament at TGP.

I made an effort to use him as my starting character in all the matches we played. I usually lost with Sonic then switched to Wolf and won with little difficulty. EDIT: I thought I should expand this. The characters I fought against were Pit, Marth, Meta Knight, DeDeDe, Wolf, Toon Link, Ike, Samus, and Mario. In all cases, I had no priority over their "bread-and-butter" approaches and attacks.

Notably, once Sonic is in control, he really shines. You need to play really efficiently and keep the opponent off balance or you won't score any hits. His priority really hurts when combined with the largely decreased recovery time for most characters when stunned by hits or throws and knocked into the air. He really does have potential, it's easily noticable the similarities between him and how characters played in melee. And perhaps my mindset hasn't yet escaped that game, but I feel as though a lot more needs to be done with Sonic's tech game before he has a chance of succeeding. Sonic is definitely focused more on grabbing and capitalizing on their mistakes.

In a melee world, Sonic would be amazing.

That said, Wolf is a BEAST!
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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yeah that's the frustrating thing... sonic can really seem like he's going to dominate when you can manage to get in and have the enemy in your grasp... then you realize that they recover more quickly than he can follow up... too bad... he's certainly at least good for an interesting game. I can feel it in him though, he's more than the bottom teir that he's being placed in... he might nevr be top, but after some intense playing you'd figgure someone will find something that can move him up in the world a bit.
 

A2ZOMG

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reliable kill combos? not really.. his Fsmash won't be comboed into from anything. neither will his Dsmash. that leaves pretty much exclusively his bair. It's not the fastest either, and is the weakest of the three, but at least you can occasionally combo into it from a spindash/spincharge.

edit: wow I misread that as reliable kill-combos rather than reliable kill moves AND combos

to answer your actual question
combos:

so, in recap there, yeah, he has some kill moves... but really not many reliable ones

As for combos, he has some nice spindash/charge into uair combos and his dash into Fsmash is kinda an auto combo... but brawl doesn't really seem to have combos like melee or 64 did.
Hey no problem, I don't browse the Sonic boards too often. I'm glad you can tell me about Sonic when he's one of few I've paid little attention to.

So...they ultimately decided to make Sonic more of the "fast but weak" type of character I guess? E for All impressions from what I get seemed to say he was really good (I noticed you didn't mention his Up-air for killing, which Gimpyfish said originally was a good kill move IIRC, so that was nerfed in the transition I guess?).

This is sorta off topic, but how does Sonic do against Mario? I'm really curious, as I'm a Mario main....but almost nobody really has any information on Mario, nor are there enough vids of this particular mathup. =(
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Hey no problem, I don't browse the Sonic boards too often. I'm glad you can tell me about Sonic when he's one of few I've paid little attention to.

So...they ultimately decided to make Sonic more of the "fast but weak" type of character I guess? E for All impressions from what I get seemed to say he was really good (I noticed you didn't mention his Up-air for killing, which Gimpyfish said originally was a good kill move IIRC, so that was nerfed in the transition I guess?).

This is sorta off topic, but how does Sonic do against Mario? I'm really curious, as I'm a Mario main....but almost nobody really has any information on Mario, nor are there enough vids of this particular mathup. =(
hmmm (that dash into fsmash should read dash into usmash.... but whatever)... so gimpy says uair kills? well, gimpy isn't really the final authority... it's knockback is standard at best... not really a killing move except at high damages at the top of the screen. whether this means gimpy's wrong or they changed it, Im not sure, but I definitely wouldn't call it a kill move.

diverging fro sonic a bit, mario seems like classic mario, not really a counter to anyone, but not realy easily countered. FLUDD seems like a primarily useless addition. but overal he seems better than in melee.
 

Orange_Soda_Man

Smash Ace
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Mar 6, 2008
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539
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Boston
From what I've noticed in the few hours I've played the game as him, is that you need mastery of the tilt a ground moves (in addition to more, of course).
example, up tilt > up smash. Again this is just my personal experience.
this accurate for you guys too?
 
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