Why I Hate Dark Pit (Other Clone Suggestions)

[MagiusNecros]

Giga Bowser should have been a Bowser Clone. Missed opportunity. And all the necessary data was all there. Way to be a doodoohead Sakurai.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Wish Dark Pit wasn't playable. If he wasn't included less people would be mad about kid Icarus bias.

He's a huge waste. I would gladly take him being cut and the roster would be so much better without him.

 

[OdangoKnight]

Less is more.

If all the clones required so little development time then why are they sharing the spot light? You've got blotches on the roster with massive dips of quality that ruin the whole package, having them as alt costumes improves the base character on the roster for future reference.

Oh, we get Pit? Great, that means I'll get Dark Pit in the future as a bonus. Oh, we get Marth? Great, that means I'll get Lucina in the future as a bonus.

Instead I can look forward to Dark Pit being there providing absolutely nothing to the game, essentially being filler.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

" 'Have you ever made a game?' That is a question I have to still present to a bunch of mere mere 10-year old children whining about getting free desserts."

- Sakurai

/thread

 

[MagiusNecros]

What if I didn't want dessert or said dessert is the same as the meal I just ate which I don't want any more of?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

What if I didn't want dessert or said dessert is the same as the meal I just ate which I don't want any more of?

"If you don't like it, let somebody else have it who'd appreciate more than you will.

However. free desserts ain't going anywhere. Why should they?"

/Thread

 

[OdangoKnight]

Sakurai mentioned that if you don't like a character you don't have to play as them, which is obviously correct. However if you want to actually complete the game you're forced to eat this dessert.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Sakurai mentioned that if you don't like a character you don't have to play as them, which is obviously correct. However if you want to actually complete the game you're forced to eat this dessert.

Seeing that he developed the game, shouldn't that be obvious, to be honest?

 

[Wintropy]

People will still appreciate Dark Pit as a character regardless of how much you like or dislike him.

That is an irrefutable fact of nature.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Don't worry folks, you will all beg for Dark Pit's return once he's scrapped.

Because this fanbase does not know what the **** they want.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Personally I'd of preferred if they switched Alph and Dark Pit's roles; Alph with Rock Pikmin would off been his main difference, and Dark Pit remains a literal palette swap(with an alt title like the Koopalings).

Alas, that wasn't what happened, and I feel like if that had people would be less mad at Dark Pit.

 

[OdangoKnight]

Seeing that he developed the game, shouldn't that be obvious, to be honest?

You'd think so but this is coming from a man who contradicts himself every time he talks.

 

[Wintropy]

I'd just like to point out that, given the time and budget they had left, Alph was just not technically feasible.

Pit is a fairly simple character mechanically. There are no extraneous ephemera that need to be tweaked and sorted in order to balance his moveset anymore than most other characters'. The basic properties are easily ported to another character with minor differences to distinguish between both characters.

Olimar, though, is technically complex. He has numerous types of Pikmin that he can command, each with their own individual properties and attributes, and they all have their own AI independent of the main host. That's a lot of variables and technical tidbits that require adequate maintenance and balancing. Adding another kind of Pikmin to his arsenal means that the entire moveset would need to be adjusted and balanced accordingly, adding more variables and technical complexities that would have either dragged out development time or resulted in a sloppy and unfinished character design that may ultimately have to have been scrapped anyway.

There's also the fact that Sakurai had to make a judgement call a the last moment. He could have prioritised development of Alph, but even so, the risks associated with such a move outweigh the potential rewards of those actions. Is it bias that he chose Dark Pit over other potential clones? Possibly, but I doubt it was intentional or malignant. He just happened to have Dark Pit on the mind and decided it was the easiest and least complicated route to pursue, resulting in the clone that we have and love / hate today.

If the circumstances were different and the clones were due to be added as separate characters from the origins of the project? Then yes, Alph would definitely have been the superior choice, and I would absolutely understand the salt regarding Dark Pit. For better or for worse, though, that was utterly independent of what did actually occur, and Sakurai just decided to use the last-minute fine-tuning process to pad out the roster a bit. It wasn't intentionally caustic or at all malignant, and it's fallacious to think that Sakurai did it just to spite fans and bolster his own over-inflated ego.

Examining it from another perspective: the game has been out for several months now and the roster is final. With the prospect of DLC on the horizon, more characters may appear, and that only further proves the notion that the clone characters are not infringing on the potential playability of other characters, as well as demonstrating the fact that they were only intended as last-minute clones and nothing more. If they were intended to be full-fledged characters in their own right, they would probably just have been saved for DLC. We got what we got, though, and we have to accept that and appreciate the roster for what it is. Clones have always been and will always be a mainstay of Smash and that's just the way that, for better or for worse, it is.

 

[MagiusNecros]

"If you don't like it, let somebody else have it who'd appreciate more than you will.

However. free desserts ain't going anywhere. Why should they?"

/Thread

Somebody else meaning Sakurai? "I like it so you should too!"

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Somebody else meaning Sakurai? "I like it so you should too!"

To be fair, Pittoo has his share of fans, so for them, it's quite a treat to have him in Smash.

I personally don't like his concept, with it being so flatly executed as the character itself (originating from Brawl's most alternative color to Pit and from fanfic circles Pre-Uprising) and the fact that Sakurai still pads the roster with characters that at worst don't really anything entirely new to the table or feel different aside from few superficial changes. But hey, if it means more characters in the future that are as cloney as Pittoo, then well, they might as well become shoe-ins incase clone additions will never really change in execution. (last-minutes bonuses)

 

[Frostwraith]

Wish Dark Pit wasn't playable. If he wasn't included less people would be mad about kid Icarus bias.

He's a huge waste. I would gladly take him being cut and the roster would be so much better without him.

Considering KI content is mainly prevalent in the 3DS version with ported materials, I highly doubt it's bias, but a way to easily add content to the game without sacrificing development time.

Compare the number of KI trophies on both versions, for example, and notice how most trophies on the 3DS version are directly imported from KIU, which happens to be on the 3DS version as well and done by Sakurai's team, meaning the files were likely easily portable from one game to another. Most other 3DS trophies are also ported from other DS/3DS games like Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D or Pokémon X/Y.

And why is he a waste, other than your bias talking? I could say the same for <insert whatever character here>, but I won't be petty, as I believe every character added to Smash so far had their merits and fit the game. Dark Pit is a character with fans and is important in his series. That for me is enough for a character to be in a huge crossover title such as Smash.

He took little to no development time. He was probably done in someone's lunch break. He's a character with hardly any changes from the one he's copied from. From a programming standpoint, it's no different that copy-pasting a bunch of code, tweaking things here and there and call it a day.

He's bonus content along with Lucina and Dr. Mario. If you don't like him, just don't play as him and let others enjoy playing as him.

Seriously, it's about time the hate stopped, but it seems people will never stop whining. Smash Bros. may be the only series where bonus content is hated by the fanbase. It's so downright paradoxical, I can't understand.

What's the point of going to a character's board solely to complain? It's petty and immature.

I'd just like to point out that, given the time and budget they had left, Alph was just not technically feasible.

Pit is a fairly simple character mechanically. There are no extraneous ephemera that need to be tweaked and sorted in order to balance his moveset anymore than most other characters'. The basic properties are easily ported to another character with minor differences to distinguish between both characters.

Olimar, though, is technically complex. He has numerous types of Pikmin that he can command, each with their own individual properties and attributes, and they all have their own AI independent of the main host. That's a lot of variables and technical tidbits that require adequate maintenance and balancing. Adding another kind of Pikmin to his arsenal means that the entire moveset would need to be adjusted and balanced accordingly, adding more variables and technical complexities that would have either dragged out development time or resulted in a sloppy and unfinished character design that may ultimately have to have been scrapped anyway.

There's also the fact that Sakurai had to make a judgement call a the last moment. He could have prioritised development of Alph, but even so, the risks associated with such a move outweigh the potential rewards of those actions. Is it bias that he chose Dark Pit over other potential clones? Possibly, but I doubt it was intentional or malignant. He just happened to have Dark Pit on the mind and decided it was the easiest and least complicated route to pursue, resulting in the clone that we have and love / hate today.

If the circumstances were different and the clones were due to be added as separate characters from the origins of the project? Then yes, Alph would definitely have been the superior choice, and I would absolutely understand the salt regarding Dark Pit. For better or for worse, though, that was utterly independent of what did actually occur, and Sakurai just decided to use the last-minute fine-tuning process to pad out the roster a bit. It wasn't intentionally caustic or at all malignant, and it's fallacious to think that Sakurai did it just to spite fans and bolster his own over-inflated ego.

Examining it from another perspective: the game has been out for several months now and the roster is final. With the prospect of DLC on the horizon, more characters may appear, and that only further proves the notion that the clone characters are not infringing on the potential playability of other characters, as well as demonstrating the fact that they were only intended as last-minute clones and nothing more. If they were intended to be full-fledged characters in their own right, they would probably just have been saved for DLC. We got what we got, though, and we have to accept that and appreciate the roster for what it is. Clones have always been and will always be a mainstay of Smash and that's just the way that, for better or for worse, it is.

Agreed 100%.

I don't need to add anything else, though it goes without saying that this subject has been debated to death.

Knowing Melee's development process and now this game, clones will only happen in Smash if the development team has extra time beyond what was scheduled.

They will always be late addition bonuses done by the development team to fill time. Because no company or director would be paying employees who wouldn't be doing anything at all during schedule. They finished stuff earlier than expected, but they still had to work at the studio, so they modified some alts to become clones as a way to keep themselves busy.

Don't worry folks, you will all beg for Dark Pit's return once he's scrapped.

Because this fanbase does not know what the **** they want.

It won't be surprising. If Dark Pit is cut, there will be whining. I'm quite sure about that.

 

[FlareHabanero]

It won't be surprising. If Dark Pit is cut, there will be whining. I'm quite sure about that.

Mark my words, people will be crawling back to Dark Pit once he's scrapped.

This fanbase will mourn over the loss of any character that is scrapped and beg for their return, regardless of their actual worth or if they've even bothered to play the character.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

That's the fanbase so matter how hated the character is the moment that he/she is gone they start complaining kinda odd really

 

[LancerStaff]

I find it laughable that people actually become upset because X character gets in the roster. You see, virtually any potential character in Smash has a fanbase larger then the hatedom that will spring up around it. And even then, remotely divisive characters' hatedoms die off quickly. ROB and Wolf's, for example. Ask the haters in the old Dark Pit hate topics and they'll say they don't care anymore and that they were stupid for complaining in the first place.

Dark Pit has four different moves. Do you really think any other clone could of made it in over him? Even then, he'd still be playable as a costume. Likely the haters would be complaining he got in as a costume over Dark Samus or something. And the complaints of Sakurai bias got old when people were attributing it to Wolf's inclusion back in the day. Now it's a dead horse.

 

[Curious Villager]

It's quite ironic how Wolf used to be a very controversial addition during the earlier days of Brawl, and now he became one of the most missed and wanted veterans who didn't return in Smash 4.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Pit or Lucina where to be cut in the next game, that there would be a number of people wanting them to return as well, especially among the Japanese side of the fanbase who seem to really adore them. But as Sakurai said about a year and a half ago. Every character has their share of fans, no matter how vocal their hatebase is.

 

[OdangoKnight]

It's quite ironic how Wolf used to be a very controversial addition during the earlier days of Brawl, and now he became one of the most missed and wanted veterans who didn't return in Smash 4.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Pit or Lucina where to be cut in the next game, that there would be a number of people wanting them to return as well, especially among the Japanese side of the fanbase who seem to really adore them. But as Sakurai said about a year and a half ago. Every character has their share of fans, no matter how vocal their hatebase is.

To be fair it took most people longer than it should have to realise Wolf wasn't a Fox/Falco clone. Whereas with Dark Pit and Lucina it's almost completely pointless in comparison.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think Wolf was more hated because he was the last character leaked initially when people where right on their edge of their seats in hopes of Ridley, Krystal, Geno and whatnot so he got a lot of flack simply for not being one of those characters (Especially Krystal in terms of Wolf), much like R.O.B. more or less. His Landmaster Final Smash and his Special Moves (Despite being all quite different in terms of execution) probably didn't really help either back then.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well people generally aren't looking at Wolf's normal attacks and proceed to call him a clone. Whereas everything Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina basically do is exactly the same with slight difference or gimmick. Dark Pit being the worst offender.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well people generally aren't looking at Wolf's normal attacks and proceed to call him a clone. Whereas everything Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina basically do is exactly the same with slight difference or gimmick. Dark Pit being the worst offender.

I'd still say Lucina is far worse... She literally has nada over Marth. Dark Pit has his own gimmick in the Electroshock Arm.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'd still say Lucina is far worse... She literally has nada over Marth. Dark Pit has his own gimmick in the Electroshock Arm.

Lucina is just a easier Marth to use. You have the same damage all around. Except if you know your spacing with Marth you will be doing more damage and more knockback.

 

[Folt]

I think what Lancerstaff is saying is that Lucina doesn't really have anything that can be used as an advantage over Marth competitively, whereas Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm can give him an advantage over Pit in certain match-ups to warrant learning the differences of the two.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lucina is just a easier Marth to use. You have the same damage all around. Except if you know your spacing with Marth you will be doing more damage and more knockback.

No you don't. Her damage is significantly less then in between Marth's tipper and non-tipper hitboxes, and the tipper hitboxes are half the blade. In short, even a bad Marth will deal more damage then Lucina.

I think what Lancerstaff is saying is that Lucina doesn't really have anything that can be used as an advantage over Marth competitively, whereas Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm can give him an advantage over Pit in certain match-ups to warrant learning the differences of the two.

Uh-huh. Although admittedly DP doesn't have much going for him the way he is, but a few buffs could give him a few more significantly better matchups. The point is that Lucina will never offer a single significant advantage over Marth.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Which makes sense. I just hate how a couple characters move and act completely the same. Guess I just hate roster padding for the sake of having a large roster.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

The only thing I like about Dark Pit is him being my punching bag.

 

[LancerStaff]

Which makes sense. I just hate how a couple characters move and act completely the same. Guess I just hate roster padding for the sake of having a large roster.

Perhaps if this was some nobody made for a fighting game, but these are pre-existing characters with sizeable fanbases. Do you think Dark Pit ever had a chance outside of being a clone? In a game like Smash, clones go a long way.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Perhaps if this was some nobody made for a fighting game, but these are pre-existing characters with sizeable fanbases. Do you think Dark Pit ever had a chance outside of being a clone? In a game like Smash, clones go a long way.

Guess I'm disappointed we didn't get any use of the other weapon styles like the Claws or Palms. And the Staff got Final Smashed.

 

[LancerStaff]

Guess I'm disappointed we didn't get any use of the other weapon styles like the Claws or Palms. And the Staff got Final Smashed.

Again, do you really think he would of gotten in as anything but a clone? Making him anything but a clone defeats the point of including him in the first place.

 

[KCJ506]

Well people generally aren't looking at Wolf's normal attacks and proceed to call him a clone. Whereas everything Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina basically do is exactly the same with slight difference or gimmick. Dark Pit being the worst offender.

Yeah, apparently to some people, B-moves and Final Smashes make a character. If they were just to change those things on Wolf, he'd be a completely unique character.

I've come across people actually suggest that he should be a Fox alt. Which wouldn't work for obvious reasons and would actually be worse than him being cut.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, apparently to some people, B-moves and Final Smashes make a character. If they were just to change those things on Wolf, he'd be a completely unique character.

I've come across people actually suggest that he should be a Fox alt. Which wouldn't work for obvious reasons and would actually be worse than him being cut.

Because A moves don't have largely unique effects. A moves aren't typically the interesting projectiles and the like, they're largely just moves that fall somewhere on the "fast and weak" vs "strong and powerful" balance spectrum. No, I don't care is somebody attacks with her hair, it works just like a sword.

 

[KCJ506]

Well A-moves are used far more than B-moves anyway. Plus Wolf uses his claws and has a feral type of moveset. No other character has that. Hell even though Wolf's B-moves are based off Fox's, all except maybe one function differently.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well A-moves are used far more than B-moves anyway. Plus Wolf uses his claws and has a feral type of moveset. No other character has that. Hell even though Wolf's B-moves are based off Fox's, all except maybe one function differently.

Claws and fists are functionally similar. Bowser's Dtilt used to be claws, but now it's punches with the exact same animation otherwise. This goes back to the Dixie Kong example, hair or a sword are both just disjointed hit boxes.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The fact remains that Wolf had unique standard attacks that made him different from Fox and Falco. And those standard attacks make all the difference. Only things that were kinda the same were the specials. Which had different applications. And the FS much like DP's, Lucina's, and the Doc's are all knockoffs of something else. Doc is understandable because it is still Mario, and Lucina is passable because Marth. However DP is a knockoff of the Light Arrow and is the only time the Staff weapon is used, and Wolf getting a Landmaster instead of a Wolfen was just lame.

As for Dark Pit he should have used different weapon styles to show more of KI U and have well a unique moveset to give us a new playstyle to play as. Just because a character is categorized as a clone in game canon does not mean he has to fight exactly the same. Since Pit and Dark Pit have completely different personalities. But we got Pit and Pittoo(or Pit 2) so one has Fun arrows and different knockback and damage while the other has boring but more powerful arrows and also has different knockback and damage properties.

 

[LancerStaff]

The fact remains that Wolf had unique standard attacks that made him different from Fox and Falco. And those standard attacks make all the difference. Only things that were kinda the same were the specials. Which had different applications. And the FS much like DP's, Lucina's, and the Doc's are all knockoffs of something else. Doc is understandable because it is still Mario, and Lucina is passable because Marth. However DP is a knockoff of the Light Arrow and is the only time the Staff weapon is used, and Wolf getting a Landmaster instead of a Wolfen was just lame.

As for Dark Pit he should have used different weapon styles to show more of KI U and have well a unique moveset to give us a new playstyle to play as. Just because a character is categorized as a clone in game canon does not mean he has to fight exactly the same. Since Pit and Dark Pit have completely different personalities. But we got Pit and Pittoo(or Pit 2) so one has Fun arrows and different knockback and damage while the other has boring but more powerful arrows and also has different knockback and damage properties.

He has some mildly unique A moves... Like, any and every character can have A moves unique as his. Most do. I really don't think losing his moveset was a big loss.

And no, you misunderstood. Dark Pit as a character only had a chance to get into Smash as a clone. The point is that he's an easy addition working off of Pit.

 

[Folt]

I'd say that in a fighting game, different properties can go a long way to make a difference between two similiar-on-the-paper characters.

 

[Overtaken]

For my money I was always salty over D.Pit being made over a Greninja-cloned Sceptile. Pokemon deserves the reps and newcomers. I would have settled for anything that is at least a character with their own name. Mario with a coat and university degree, let's call him 'Dr.Mario', it'll be great. Or how about an angsty version of Pit and looks exactly the same except he wears darker colors. 'Dark Pit', I can see it now, he'll be such a hit!

It just smacks of corner cutting, and sadly of a game where they clearly poured a lot of man power and effort into it. They should have put the little extra money and time into game to get the clones the game and fans deserved, not these phoned-in alt costumes getting their own slot.