Why don't the competitive players try fast smash?

[Fundingle]

The two biggest complaints people from older smash games seem to have towards smash 4 is the slowness and defensive game-play style that tends to play out. I also personally really dislike 2 stocks as the standard. The easiest and simplest solution is fast smash! I know there is SLHG and i really like SLHG but its a little bit of a pain to setup. Not a massive pain but far more of a pain then selecting special smash and turning on fast.

Now I am not a competitive player so perhaps this is a dumb suggestion. The smash 4 competitive community has a full year under its belt and probably doesn't want to change anything. But really I feel the release of smash 4 has just got more people interested in melee more so then smash 4 itself. I went out and got smash 4 and a wii u last christmas just for fun. I started watching some twitch and youtube on the game and of course watched the tournaments. I really only started because of smash 4 but now I watch just as much melee if not more. Of course smash 4 isn't melee but that's not it really. The reason I enjoy watching melee is the speed of the game. While smash 4 isn't boring to watch... It just doesn't have the same intensity.

Why not try out fast smash? You just gotta go to special smash and turn on fast. Its 1.5 the normal speed so a pretty big jump in speed. Maybe even a little faster then melee but I think its sill within reason. While in theory nothing changes other then the speed. I do think this will make some uncommon characters more viable like mewtwo or jigglypuff maybe. Its just a lot easier to make sudden movements around the stage. I don't think its possible to play fast smash online but I don't really feel like that's a valid reason to dismiss the idea. It would be really fun to see xanadu try out 3 or 4 stock fast smash one week. Of course the players wont be used to it at all but its not like heavy gravity or anything. All the angles should still be the same in theory.

Its also obvious that nintendo and masahiro sakurai watch the competitive smash 4 community. Reggie Fils-Aimé battled hungrybox at E3 for crying out loud! So if the smash 4 competitive community started only playing fast smash... Then maybe... just maybe smash 5 would be more fast by default. Just an idea.

TLDR: fast smash is fast and more interesting for competitive smash 4


Here is two level 8 bots going at it. Sure real players might not have this level of control but I don't think the speed is unmanageable. Also for sure more fun to watch.

 

[Thinkaman]

There are 3 main problems with this idea.


The first is the assumption that competitive Smash 4 players want to play a different game than Smash 4, because players who don't like Smash 4 don't like Smash 4. People who play Smash 4 do so because they like Smash 4.


The second is that there is a fundamental difference in "speed" between the 3 most recent Smash games. Assuming we are talking about movement parameters, move startup time, move cooldown, and optimized landing lag, this is quite simply not the case. There are a million exceptions, in both directions, but in general these core mechanics operate at very similar speeds in all aspects but gravity.

The difference between the games, beyond hitstun and gravity, is more about state transitions, buffering, and the "jerkiness" or "smoothness" that provides. Melee's less polished engine allows animation transitions like unconstrained dash-dancing, and features directional special-fall airdodge. The "speed" difference some people perceive is simply this sense of sharp control, compounded by the nature of the high-hitstun combos and widespread exploitation of abusable frame timings on select moves like shine.


The third issue is why this is a bad idea in any fighting game. Fighting games are built on the atoms of double-blind yomi decision points. Fighting games are real-time, but generate effectively double-blind decisions by exploiting human reaction time as a buffer--even if I made a move 5 frames ago, in your head you can't possibly know that yet, and are making a decision independently.

The entire system of every fighting game is constructed around this buffer. This is why there is a non-linear difference in the significance of move startup times; a 20-frame move is fundamentally different from a 10-frame move, not just "half as good".

For example, players cannot react to standard grabs, but generally can to tether grabs. (Whereas tether grabs can shieldgrab certain high-pushback moves that standard grabs cannot.) In a 1.5x or 2x speed environment, tether grabs would become unreactable, and this fundamental design structure would break.

In the same way, the game breaks in 0.5x speed. Standard grabs become reactable, and most characters lose any way to threaten a shielding opponent.


The blunt bottom line is, we play the game under the settings meticulously designed to produce a robust competitive environment, not ones chosen to make CPUs look cool fighting each other.

 

[One Punch Derk]

Faster isn't always better. As Thinkaman said, a lot of fighting games build around the average human reaction time. Speeding the game up make it kinda messy, imo. There is no way to react to even the slowest of moves. What this does is creates more of a button-masher fighting game instead of what Smash 4 is now.
Also the complaint about Smash 4's "speed" is more of a complaint about how long it takes to actually KO someone, not the characters' speed. Character and game speed was more of a Brawl complaint, but even in Brawl stocks can be taken fairly quickly. Which is why Brawl (I think) is still played on the 3-4 stock standard as Smash 4 is played with only 2.
I could be wrong, but that just my two cents on the subject.
* EDIT:
I will say that Smooth Lander/High Gravity/Moon Launcher is a lot of fun, but not a ton of competitive players are into the idea. But if the community were to change the game settings, I think that should be the way to go, because stocks end pretty quickly in that mode, combos potentially last longer, teching is more important, and you can actually get opportunities to tech-chase people. Which is fun.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ima say that the real reason melee is popular is not because of its speed; it's the options and freedom the game and characters offer you. Smash 4 is overall more restrictive than melee as a whole, but there are some characters that holds tons of options (sheik, Rosa, rob, ryu, villager, peach, pac-man, etc..)

 

[Fundingle]

For sure good points. I just posted the cpus cause I wanted to show that a 3 stock match wouldn't take forever. The general competitive smash 4 community plays under the default game setup which is designed for a party style fighting game. It works very well for competitive as well but the 2 stock setup really makes it boring to watch.

I'm sure many competitive smash 4 players like it the way it is which is fine but its always fun to try new things out. I don't really understand your first two reasons as to why this is a bad idea. Sure melee players have mastered all the advanced moves to speed up the way they play and it makes it look fast as well as how the game itself worked. But does that really make the idea of trying out fast smash a bad idea?

As for the third yea for sure players reaction time will be tested and things like tether grabs will be more effective. I'm not so sure they would become unreactable but just very hard to react to. Of course fighting games are also mind games. Players with really good reaction times would have more of an advantaged and that does show off a players skill to predict a roll punish it faster. How about a few people try it out? Jigglypuff vs Fox on dreamland and lets see how much it looks like hungrybox vs armada from dreamhack. U could probably even do 4 stocks in 8 minutes with fast smash tbh. Look I like smash 4 as it is for sure but I think it would be fun to see what its like with good players playing against each other in fast smash.

I'm not saying the entire competitive community needs to play this way but I think it would be awesome to see some matches of good players doing it for one tournament.

 

[One Punch Derk]

Ima say that the real reason melee is popular is not because of its speed; it's the options and freedom the game and characters offer you. Smash 4 is overall more restrictive than melee as a whole, but there are some characters that holds tons of options (sheik, Rosa, rob, ryu, villager, peach, pac-man, etc..)

I thinks Smash 4 is generally safer than Melee, I could be because the meta hasn't caught up yet, but I think it's because defensive options are overall better in Smash 4 and that ledge-trumping is a thing. You have no idea how happy I was when I heard that Shield-Stun was increased. I just wish you could Directional air-dodge once, like in Melee. Infinite air-dodging is just lame. imo.

TLDR: Melee's engine makes people die faster.

Jigglypuff vs Fox on dreamland and lets see how much it looks like hungrybox vs armada from dreamhack. U could probably even do 4 stocks in 8 minutes with fast smash tbh.

The issue with this is that, character movement and attack speed in Melee and in Smash 4 is pretty similar. Attacks are generally a frame or 2 faster or slower, depending on the attack. However, Melee has ways of canceling momentum, lag animations and attacks.
Smash 4 Fox in Fast Smash may move faster, however he he will never be able to wave-shine, Short-hop laser cancel, or shine spike like Melee Fox. It's not a issues with game speed Smash 4 is actually pretty fast (depending on the character). But the moves and combos that are present just aren't as devastating as Melee's.
For example:
Melee can KO Captain Falcon with 2 well-placed shines. This is possible for 2 main reasons Fox can cancel his shine animation with a jump making it extremely fast, and hit-stun is much greater in Melee (there is a few more reasons such as gravity and KB angle, but I won't go into detail).
So a stock can be taken with the first few seconds of a match, but it's not because Fox can run faster in Melee than in Smash 4. It's because he options are much more devastating.

 

[Fundingle]

Faster isn't always better. As Thinkaman said, a lot of fighting games build around the average human reaction time. Speeding the game up make it kinda messy, imo. There is no way to react to even the slowest of moves. What this does is creates more of a button-masher fighting game instead of what Smash 4 is now.
Also the complaint about Smash 4's "speed" is more of a complaint about how long it takes to actually KO someone, not the characters' speed. Character and game speed was more of a Brawl complaint, but even in Brawl stocks can be taken fairly quickly. Which is why Brawl (I think) is still played on the 3-4 stock standard as Smash 4 is played with only 2.
I could be wrong, but that just my two cents on the subject.
* EDIT:
I will say that Smooth Lander/High Gravity/Moon Launcher is a lot of fun, but not a ton of competitive players are into the idea. But if the community were to change the game settings, I think that should be the way to go, because stocks end pretty quickly in that mode, combos potentially last longer, teching is more important, and you can actually get opportunities to tech-chase people. Which is fun.

For sure SLHG is amazing and actually I would love to that to be the standard. It just doesn't seem to have any steam going for it. I don't think you can play it online anymore and ive not seen any tournament try it out. If someone has the power they need to get xanadu or some place that streams to host a SLHG tournament. I think the main reason is you cant really chase people off stage in heavy gravity. That is probably why people don't seem to like it.

TLDR: Melee's engine makes people die faster.



The issue with this is that, character movement and attack speed in Melee and in Smash 4 is pretty similar. Attacks are generally a frame or 2 faster or slower, depending on the attack. However, Melee has ways of canceling momentum, lag animations and attacks.
Smash 4 Fox in Fast Smash may move faster, however he he will never be able to wave-shine, Short-hop laser cancel, or shine spike like Melee Fox. It's not a issues with game speed Smash 4 is actually pretty fast (depending on the character). But the moves and combos that are present just aren't as devastating as Melee's.
For example:
Melee can KO Captain Falcon with 2 well-placed shines. This is possible for 2 main reasons Fox can cancel his shine animation with a jump making it extremely fast, and hit-stun is much greater in Melee (there is a few more reasons such as gravity and KB angle, but I won't go into detail).
So a stock can be taken with the first few seconds of a match, but it's not because Fox can run faster in Melee than in Smash 4. It's because he options are much more devastating.

Yeah I guess when you get into the details its more clear. I just saw jigglypuff jumping all over the place going up and down. With fast smash you can really move around fast as jiggly and its pretty freaking fun so it really looked like melee to me.

 

[One Punch Derk]

I think the main reason is you cant really chase people off stage in heavy gravity. That is probably why people don't seem to like it.

Depends on the character. But I'll say that it's also pretty hard to chase people off-stage in Melee due to it's gravity. And people seem to enjoy that game.

 

[Xermo]

I don't think you realize how unplayable fast smash is on a non-cpu level competitively. Speeding up the game destroys input control and devolves into nothing more than misinputs and button mashing.

It's one thing to try and advocate "let's try something new for the competitive meta with fast smash" when you yourself hadn't seemed to understand why it wouldn't work to begin with, not to mention not playing competitively in the first place.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Melee isn't "just" faster. There are many techniques that make it a whole new world.
The movement options, basic advanced techs and character specific techs available to many of the top tiers gives the game a much different feel or a "faster" feeling. Smash 4 simply doesn't have these things along with some other changes to how the game works, specifically the ledge game. That also rubbed others smashers the wrong way causing them to be against Smash 4.

I play Smash 4 because I still like it, but I'd rather it stay the "speed" it's always been. A high-level match is still pretty quick depending on the match-up and it's already jank enough without trying to speed everything up. When I want to play Melee I just play Melee.

 

[DroveSour]

I'm not gunna lie, if you wanna have a blast with your friends and screw around in Sm4sh, this is the way to do it.
Competitive Side? This would be a side tourney at best.
Sm4sh is what it is.
If you can get Melee players to come play Sm4sh by raising the speed 1.5 times ill give you my right arm.
And I'll enter EVO using a one handed controller.

In all seriousness though, its fun to play, but in no way viable for an actual tournament.

"Guys, Nintendo finally made Melee HD!!"
"NO WAY WHERE DO I THROW MY MONEY??"
"Alright, It's a secret option hidden in the last Smash game, Super Smash Brothers for Wii U. Go to Smash, select Special Smash, and then turn the speed to fast! Nintendo even added lots of new characters and stages!!"

 

[Browny]

Ima say that the real reason melee is popular is not because of its speed; it's the options and freedom the game and characters offer you. Smash 4 is overall more restrictive than melee as a whole, but there are some characters that holds tons of options (sheik, Rosa, rob, ryu, villager, peach, pac-man, etc..)

If by restrictive you mean you dont get touched and then you die to a fox or falco, then sure, restrict us all day long lol

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If by restrictive you mean you dont get touched and then you die to a fox or falco, then sure, restrict us all day long lol

We simply cannot do as many things as those characters. It's simply a fact and a neutral one at that. I personally prefer more freedom (so i play more technical characters like Rob) since I play an instrument.

 

[One Punch Derk]

If by restrictive you mean you dont get touched and then you die to a fox or falco, then sure, restrict us all day long lol

It's a pretty good restriction to have honestly. On the flip-side you can zero-to-death someone right back if you are good enough... which is pretty neat.

"NO WAY WHERE DO I THROW MY MONEY??"

I'd pay $60 for a re-release of Melee for the Wii U. As long as it had GCN Controller support and Online.

 

[Luigi player]

I don't think you realize how unplayable fast smash is on a non-cpu level competitively. Speeding up the game destroys input control and devolves into nothing more than misinputs and button mashing.

It's one thing to try and advocate "let's try something new for the competitive meta with fast smash" when you yourself hadn't seemed to understand why it wouldn't work to begin with, not to mention not playing competitively in the first place.

This.

Whenever I switch to x1.5 speed in training to speed something up the game is totally unplayable, because so many things are impossible or way too hard to do. I don't think anyone would like Smash4 to be such a slaughterfest where everyone has very little control of what they're actually doing. Everything with a 5 frame window or less will become super inconsistent or impossible to do (try doing smash attacks without the cstick).

 

[DroveSour]

I'd pay $60 for a re-release of Melee for the Wii U. As long as it had GCN Controller support and Online.

Knowing Nintendo, they'd make it only play with Wiimote

 

[wizrad]

Turning up the speed wouldn't detract from any perceived defensiveness. It just makes it faster. Play a Brawl match at 2x speed on YouTube. It's still Brawl.

 

[link2702]

People have tried to make this suggestion before, even in brawl.

the simple short answer is; it's not just the "speed" that is different. The games have completely different physics with different techniques. Changing smash 4's or brawl's speed to fast smash, doesn't make it "play like melee" it just makes it play like a speedier version of Smash4 or brawl. the games still lack all the techniques of melee, and they still have different physics overall. Using brawl as an example again(cuz it was the one that people always tried to argue doing this for years ago....)

fast brawl will not; get rid of hitstun cancelling from brawl, bring back wavedashing, bring back melee's ledge mechanics, bring back melee's shield mechanics, bring back L-cancellling, change dash mechanics, change air dodges, among many other things.

all fast brawl will do, is make the game a faster playing version of brawl, still keeping all of brawl's more campy defensive mechanics and style, just....faster.