why don't i ever see waveshine infinites in any of the pro matches online?

[knightpraetor]

do they just not work on top tier characters? i think at least it works on falcon?

 

[pdk]

1) only work on a few chars
2) require a wall to pin them against
3) predictable

 

[takieddine]

1) true
2)not really
3) not really

you don't need a wall to infinite characters, you can WD past them or us a drill and DI behind them to land behind and repeat.

it isn't repetitive, if you can land a shine or a drill kick, you can basically do it for free, and they cant do crap about it, so predictability isn't an issue.

 

[Soma]

Level of difficultly, it is so much easier to do something that works consistently than try to do some over the top display of tech skills like infinites. And its alot safer to drill, waveshine, up smash or throw, then an attempt at an infinite. Less times you will botch it.

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks..was wondering whether i should bother trying to learn it..i do like the waveshine practice..but i'm not sure who all i can get away with it on...still shines across the screen can be pretty effective i would think..though i think you can di shines somewhat so as to change the distance the fox has to wavedash?

 

[Negative Zero]

It can be escaped with proper DI, and it doesn't do much damage. But it's much easier than the JC shine 'infinite' or the drillshine 'infinite'. It's worth learning even if you don't use it often. I find myself wavedashing down after shining on the ground out of habit. It just reduces lag that way. It can't hurt to have more options.

 

[Enigmatics]

you can DI out of it.

 

[shadydentist]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qf6oqOhMqSI

 

[~Tac~]

1) only work on a few chars
2) require a wall to pin them against
3) predictable

1) True.
2) Not all of them.
3) How is it predictable if they're rarely used?

One main reason is because in the heat of battle, you're not just going to say, "Oh hey, lets do an infinite, hope I don't screw up". Also, the shine infinites are for ONLY the fast fingered. And theres probably..only a few hundred in this EARTH that can pull them off without fail. Most notibly, Zelgadis. Look at "Shined Blind" by DBR(I think).

 

[Grand Mango]

1) True.
2) Not all of them.
3) How is it predictable if they're rarely used?

One main reason is because in the heat of battle, you're not just going to say, "Oh hey, lets do an infinite, hope I don't screw up". Also, the shine infinites are for ONLY the fast fingered. And theres probably..only a few hundred in this EARTH that can pull them off without fail. Most notibly, Zelgadis. Look at "Shined Blind" by DBR(I think).

It's predictable after two shines, and there are better options such as shine - grab to uthrow or just usmash.

 

[shadydentist]

Well... obviously a drillshine/waveshine combo does more damage. But shine- upsmash or shine-grab is a lot safer.

 

[Enigmatics]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vq5aaO9EEmI&mode=related&search=

A peach DI'ing out of lunin's infinites.

 

[Velox]

Go watch FASTLIKETREE right now. He is amazing, both tech and smarts.

 

[SCOTU]

Yeah, most pros don't use it not because it is bad, but because it requires pristine technical skill to pull off, and they don't want to mess up, when they can just skip to the end result (minus some damage). If you can waveshine someone across the stage consistently, go ahead and do it, when they get to the end of the stage, throw in a usmash or uthrow or just push them of the edge (the shine spike is not advised) and edgegaurd like any other move sent them off the stage. I like the horizontal drillshine combo because it piles on damage (even a few reps). And repeatable shine combos (at least one way) work on the following: link, zelda, peach, falcon, ganon, and sheik. I might have left out a few (like samus/ DK) you'd have to check the shine guide thread). So while the cast that the shine can combo into it'self is limited it is not a tiny amount. The shine can be DI'ed but not to an effective escape, at best, they'll get their sheild up. I consider it a win while i shine against someones sheild. Bottom line is if you've got crazy tech skill, go ahead and combo shine into shine, but end it in something that packs a punch (or kill) like a usmash.
Check out my vid for shine combos (waveshins, drillshines, multishines): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5034768952955448555&q=5th+column+ascension

 

[Adi]

Wow amazing stuff Scotu

 

[SCOTU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GobyhXSLBLM&NR=1

A professional use of shine infinite & knee "infinite"

 

[ESAM]

Since the main wall is in Poke Stadium, fire and rock, on rock i just go all the way to the left and wait for them to go down, unless they have a charge up B, in which case i run to them unless they are in the tiny thing at the bottom. What i would do is pretend to jump down and air dodge to that platform right above it on the left, they would use a laggy attack that usually works down there, then i can drop through that platform and drill shine them. Or just come down with a bair, and if they tech the wall, run and jump cancel an U-Smash.

 

[RedYoshi92]

you probably don't see any waveshine infinites in matches because it can get predictable and they can DI out of it.

 

[SCOTU]

The above isn't true at all. a waveshine combo isn't predictable, it's how you use it. if you shffl an aerial into someone's shield, and shine afterwards (say they try to sheild grab) you shine them, you continue to shine them. No predictable-ness. about DI, only SDI can get someone out of it, and the horizontal waveshine infinite it is only bearly escapable, provided the fox is doing it right, and the one in the rocks, isn't escapable, and the one against the tree is, but it requires SDI, and that can be followed to a horizontal waveshine infinite (charactar specific)/ waveshine combo. Oh, and in the rock place @ stadium, almost every one of fox's moves combo into the shine (just so long as they don't walltechjump). Some pros do waveshine infinites, look at chillin for example, he waveshines people across the stage.

 

[Randizzle]

most people that are experienced against foxes know that shield grabbing an fox out of an aerial is often a dangerous idea...
There are usually easier, safer and faster ways to deal the damage that waveshine infinites can do (blasters, aerials, tilts, grabs, etc), but pros definitely do occasionally use waveshine infinites, but they use it only when they have a really good opportunity and reason to.

 

[SCOTU]

most people that are experienced against foxes know that shield grabbing an fox out of an aerial is often a dangerous idea...

Just an example. It's not incredibly difficult to hit someone w/ a shine though, and while there are much faster ways of putting on damage, a waveshine infinite is pretty safe. The hoirzontal waveshine is often used to put the opponent over the edge for edgaurding rather than for infinites. For pure damage, not much is faster than the drillshine infinite though (it's escapable, so you usually don't do more than 40%). But there are definately alternatives that do the same amount of damage and are easier (while not intrinsically a true combo always).

 

[xelad1]

the drillshine infinite is also pretty safe if you chase the DI properly. I mean if you are straight up chasing an opponent with a waveshine why not drill into another, its no harder than shffling another aerial into them or getting a grab or usmash. The uses are just situational and naturally its easier to perform on some characters than on others, but not at all a bad way of putting on damage.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Hm, I feel pretty comfortable with my tech skill, and when I go for drillshine infinites, (like on FD), I find that most of my opponents vary their DI to include crouch-cancels, "away" DI, no DI, etc. Against some characters, it seems to become a guessing game. For example, if they crouchcancel, Fox may have jumped too far forwards with the dair to continue the infinite. If I try to play it safe and sh only slightly in front of me, an "away" di will often limit the number of hits (if any) of my dair, and with proper abuse of the lag between the parts of the dair hit, will get out.

Mind you, most of the people I play are quite good, so they are probably used to this "Fox is trying to drillshine infinite me zomg" thing.

I've also noticed that some experienced fox players prefer to grab-uair out of the shine instead of a simple upsmash. Why? Because it can often kill at lower percentages, depending on the position of the characters and the ceiling. Sometimes, the upthrow will position the enemy high enough in the level that an upair would indeed be more effective.

This presents a problem.

For you see, when Fox goes for this grab, he will often MISS if the enemy decides to crouchcancel. This is most noticable against Marth, as Fox needs to run a little bit to grab Marth. Naturally, an upsmash would work here, but once again, this "guessing game" is once again present.

I hope this triggers some thoughts. And hopefully some answers.