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Why do people think Brawl is "less" competitive than Melee?

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
BRoomer
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Warner Robins, Georgia
To be honest, I quite enjoy being able to use other characters during smashfests and mini tournies because during the Melee days, I'd have to use Marth, Sheik, or Peach if I wanted to stand a chance, but now, since no one has defined a clear metagame or tier list, we can truly enjoy the game and use whomever and whenever! (except for metaknight... he is so friggin hard to beat =[ )
having to use marth sheik or peach?

That's funny, i'da sworn that the last major melee tourney was won by somebody from your half the nation who didnt use one of those 3 characters, nor one of the top 2, nor one of the last 3 "acceptable" characters.

I could be wrong though, he might not be from around you. XD


 

Koga

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
352
In Response to the statments that brawl is slower than melee i will say this.

Over the last week i've played brawl extensively, then went back to melee to see what was different, here's what i found.

On the ground, Brawl is faster than melee.

In the air, Brawl is faster Than melee.

Its the transition between the two where people begin to think that Brawl is "Slow".

Yes, its true. The gravity adopted by the new physics engine is less harsh than melee's individual character binded gravity. Now, you hve to chose your battles more wisely. Even with a short hop, you can't go blindly jumping into your opponent. This doesn't make the game less competative or slower nor does it take away options. It just changes the psychology of the game. Approaching is done a little differently. Just learn to adapt. Don't jump unless you plan on being in the air for a little bit and the game wont seem slow at all
 

Cloak and Dagger

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
381
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Kookies
having to use marth sheik or peach?

That's funny, i'da sworn that the last major melee tourney was won by somebody from your half the nation who didnt use one of those 3 characters, nor one of the top 2, nor one of the last 3 "acceptable" characters.

I could be wrong though, he might not be from around you. XD


He is saying thats who is he is good with.


we all know M2Ks marth and fox are unbeatable...and dont give me that mango business.
 

CrazyShaman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
102
Location
AZ
Brawl is less competitive than melee, but that doesn't really matter since Brawl is still competitive enough.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Brawl is way more competative than when melee first came out. We've already discovered a bunch of techniques and we've had the game for all of 1 month. Melee didn't get wavedashing till a few years in. Brawl doesnt even have a metagame yet, you cant compare a 6 year old game's metagame with a 1 month old game's metagame. Simple as that.
 

red stone

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
889
Location
Nashville, Tennessee
the game is slow and doesn't require a high level of practice to get good.

the main reason for this is that the game is very slow compared to melee.

because melee was sooo fast it required the following:

finely tuned reflexes-for DIing correctly, comboing well, countering, spacing, etc.

muscle memory-this is for all the quick techs that the game inherently had and also the auto combos you could do.

better dexterity-the fast fall in melee and also the DI forced you to have to be extremely good at aerial spacing. also, the dash dancing in melee was much more useful and was almost a necessity
 

Scion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
42
Location
St. Louis
IMO, there's no such thing as a degree of competitiveness. The removal of wavedashing etc. doesn't make brawl less competitive, it just allows more people to compete. The players of melee need to accept that their superiority as competitors in melee aren't going to just carry over into a game which is ultimately a different playing style all together.
 

Spyda

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
364
Location
Houston, TX
Everyday, there is new adv. techs coming out Wavebounce, Zap jump etc. I am sure if we give it time, we will be able to out tech Melee days...
 

Blu-ninja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
479
Location
you know the place.
....

wanna hear something funny?


were judging a games competitive level....

and it just came out.



Let brawl live for a bit...THEN we can judge.

but overrall the tourneys ive been to so far are SUPER competitive and fun~
 

Darqhart

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
13
Location
Edmond, Oklahoma
Hmmm....

Hokay! So people are saying a Brawl is less competitive than Melee.

How can something be less or more competitive than something else? If you can compete, then it is competitive. Melee is faster than Brawl, but equally as competitive. Brawl has more competitors than Melee due to several reasons; A: Brawl can be played online.; B: Most of the Melee fan base started playing Brawl.; C: Brawl was heavily advertised as opposed to Melee. Very few people have figured out advanced techs to Brawl because it has only been out for about a week. It took YEARS for people to figure stuff out in Melee, thats YEARS. It will take YEARS before everything is figured out about Brawl. Just because you were a god a Melee, doesn't guarantee that you will be a god at Brawl; at the most it will just give you an edge.

You will have the people that want to play Melee, and they will find their diminishing niche somewhere. Brawl is not an expansion to Melee, Brawl is a new game. Nintendo wanted to mix things up and make a balanced game that was similar to a series not the previous game. If you want to play Melee, go play Melee; but don't assault us with subjective ideas because Brawl is not Melee.

Competitive Brawl is competitive.
Competitive Melee is Competitive.
Brawl is new, tricks and game glitches(useful or not) for advanced techs are not widely known; some haven't even been discovered yet.
Melee is old, everything is known about this game.

Melee > Brawl = False
Melee < Brawl = False

I have seen this tale before... Ask your parents about Rock and Roll, and what they like compared to what you like. Newer doesn't always mean better, but neither does older.


For those that need to argue about something(contrary to post);

Brawl is more competitive than Melee.

Brawl has more competitors, there for more competition thus more potential for competitive game play.

Melee is faster than Brawl.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
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all who say melee>brawl are people who only use high tier characters
<----- Kirby main >_>

Hmmm....

Hokay! So people are saying a Brawl is less competitive than Melee.

How can something be less or more competitive than something else? If you can compete, then it is competitive. Melee is faster than Brawl, but equally as competitive. Brawl has more competitors than Melee due to several reasons; A: Brawl can be played online.; B: Most of the Melee fan base started playing Brawl.; C: Brawl was heavily advertised as opposed to Melee. Very few people have figured out advanced techs to Brawl because it has only been out for about a week. It took YEARS for people to figure stuff out in Melee, thats YEARS. It will take YEARS before everything is figured out about Brawl. Just because you were a god a Melee, doesn't guarantee that you will be a god at Brawl; at the most it will just give you an edge.

You will have the people that want to play Melee, and they will find their diminishing niche somewhere. Brawl is not an expansion to Melee, Brawl is a new game. Nintendo wanted to mix things up and make a balanced game that was similar to a series not the previous game. If you want to play Melee, go play Melee; but don't assault us with subjective ideas because Brawl is not Melee.

Competitive Brawl is competitive.
Competitive Melee is Competitive.
Brawl is new, tricks and game glitches(useful or not) for advanced techs are not widely known; some haven't even been discovered yet.
Melee is old, everything is known about this game.

Melee > Brawl = False
Melee < Brawl = False

I have seen this tale before... Ask your parents about Rock and Roll, and what they like compared to what you like. Newer doesn't always mean better, but neither does older.


For those that need to argue about something(contrary to post);

Brawl is more competitive than Melee.

Brawl has more competitors, there for more competition thus more potential for competitive game play.

Melee is faster than Brawl.
So then you'd be down for competitive Pong, cus Im seriously looking for someone to play competitive Pong with me. Im not going to argue what you said in your post, however I will say this. Two competitive people playing a game does not make that game competitive, its just two competitive people playing a game.
 

Tabris-

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
188
People can't adapt to a game which doesn't play exactly the same as Melee or don't like the prospect of more competition since the game has been noobified. If anything, the prospect of potentialy losing to anybody should make the game much more exciting and take a lot more effort and skill to stand out in the crowd.

That being said, I wouldn't really say Brawl is a very 'competitive' game. Then again, I'm a casual player, so I don't find many games competitive, Melee included :3
 

DarkKnight077

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
1,488
Location
Stanton. CA. (Near Knott's Berry Farm)
The new "Advance Techs" in Brawl are really useless. Like Wavebounce. Do I really want to set my specials in my C-stick? No thanks.

Besides most of them don't require much thinkig. Like Infinite jump? Oh joy! Whoo.

@Dargo: Wall of text still doesn't mean anything. Means you just want a scrub game.
 

Necrochild313

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
130
Because many of the same strategies no longer work. People naturally dislike change, but just as naturally people unwilling to adapt are left behind.

The game hasn't even been out (for the majority of players on these boards) for a week yet, it took a very long time for the tactics we have already for Melee to show up. So I'd say an unwillingness to adapt and impatience are the leading reasons for people to want to stick to Melee.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
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Because many of the same strategies no longer work. People naturally dislike change, but just as naturally people unwilling to adapt are left behind.
Actually this doesn't hold true for me in that my character works almost exactly the same way he did in Melee. I didn't really have to change my game whatsoever, all I had to do was integrate a few new killing moves into my attacks. The problem is that even though my character hasn't changed, the entire way the game is played has shifted. It's no longer an aggressive, combo oriented fighting game, its a shield ruled, defensive oriented turtling game, and in all honesty, that's just not fun.
 

Cobra

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Messages
483
Location
Winthrop, Massachusetts
Exactly, people think just because it is slower/floatier and we do not have our l canceling or WDing, it is considered less competitive. Why? Because it allows newbies to compete with us? Sorry if the competition is harsh on you guys now without your adv. techs. Learn to think on your toes and react. Not simply out teching your opponent.
My only real beef with Brawl is random "Tripping". I don't think it brings anything to the table besides throwing a randomness factor into the game that will hurt tournament play. I can almost see why Sakurai did it, with the theory of "Oh, let's make a feature that will create randomness in the game and therefore not make it completely rely on a player's higher ability."

...however I can see it now in a tournament finals : "Azen vs Capt. Jack...1 stock each, both at 100% ...BAM! One of them trips, the other instantly capitalizes, game over, Hundreds of dollars decided by a 1% chance." It's an exaggerated example of course, but tripping will definitely creates EXTREME frustration to a tournament play style.

(forcing people to trip with trip moves however, that's a completely understandable function...just not the random tripping)

...this is the only way so far that I can say that Brawl will be slightly less competitive, but that wont stop people from showing up in droves to play either.

So meh... Grow, Learn, Adapt. Brawl will be just as successful as Melee, if not more.

----------------
(This is a great thread Spyda! Good arguments and points for Brawl that will hopefully show people that it is DEFINITELY worth playing and that it's not a crap game just because it isn't Melee 2.0. Kudos!)
 

NoVaLombardia

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
400
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Your Face
isn't there already a thread for this?

coulda sworn....

just coulda....

no?... WAIT...nevermind

I'm just going senile, right?
 

Marth_entersthefray

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
10
I honestly don't know where people are coming from when they say that. Firstly, there wasn't much of an improvement from the original to Melee, being only 2 years in between, IMO. Secondly, there's lots of hidden moves and techniques, more so than in Melee. And, technically speaking, how much more "competitive" can you get than playing against gamers worldwide? Honestly...
 
Joined
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I posted this in another thread.

Situationally, this incident would repeat itself if you were playing Melee. And only Melee (And quiet possibly SSB64).

This game was built from the ground up with a new engine with "balance" in mind. What we eventually discovered is that Sakurai didn't begin directly from the epicenter of the games engine to focus on the characters and fighting, but the actually engine itself. Why? To get casual players, competitive and non-gamers on the same playing field. many of the games mechanics clearly state this.

Hit stun reduction: This was very prominent in SSB64, fairly existent in Melee, but practically non existent in Brawl. Hit stun is an essential factor in fighting games in general that allow set ups and link attacks. An example would be 3rd strike, where it's possible to do a jab or L.k on a blocking opponent to open them up for a grab due to shield stun.

It's also the foundation for hit stun reliant combos such as SHFFL'd Dair>Falcon Punch at certain percentages on fast fallers. Hit stun was removed to where this is not only impossible, but nearly impossible to link any attacks that don't go beyond a 2-3 hit string and extremely low percentages. it's nearly impossible to link any thing to an aerial after 40%, or even on the ground. Single jab attacks are also obsolete due to this new engine.

The basic gist of the design was to only allow massive hit stun during high percentages; where it would be impossible to follow up to anything. This simply eliminates any potential for combos.

Multiple aerial dodges: Another aspect of the game that eliminates following up in addition to limited hit stun on many attacks. Another reason why some combos exist is because a player simply can't escape them without good DI without getting punished. If a player even made an attempt to Air dodge away from the middle of a combo, it would result in punishment; A smash or free grab; Suicide. This elements was implemented by sakurai so that you can defend yourself in the air at a cost. It was practical, and it had to be used strategically in Melee.

Now in Brawl, you can do multiple air dodges, to avoid anything. Form a recovery, coming to the ground, or even being hit by a tilt attack. The massive hit stun reduction really gives this mechanic a lot of practical uses. Even in casual matches, you can see an opponent charge a smash to knock an opponent away due to not sweet spotting the edge correctly. It's a basic tactic that forced players to actually know the approximate distance for their recoveries instead of blindly using them (Which is the next case I'm going to cover). Punishing the opponent, even for a casual player, is nearly impossible.

Auto-ledge snap/Reverse ledge snap: A lot of inexperienced players in the Smash series had trouble calculating their recoveries (?) which resulted in getting smashed off of ledges and missing in general. Sakurai made it so that characters can recover simply by going near the ledge and automatically recovering. Recovery doesn't need any approximations what so ever; just aim for the ledge and you'll grab it as if you were Mario in Melee. Also, the auto-ledge snap causes other adverse effects:

-You can grab the ledge when facing the opposite direction of the ledge at all times.
-The opponent can grab the ledge as soon as the opponent has moved from it (This is probably the only good thing I can say about the ledge mechanics)
-You're opponent cannot execute any action during the invincibility frames on the ledge
-3rd jump recoveries are canceled immediately upon coming in contact with the ledge
-Jumps auto snap after the jump animation is completed.

Hit box tangency reduction (HTR): All characters had moved with hit boxes that weren't exactly annexed to the characters themselves. Even though it may seem bad, it allow characters to be able to space appropriately and land attacks at safer distances. This prevented a competent player from just running into an attack without proper timing and distance. Characters with disjointed hit boxes (Sword characters for example) were able to space their attacks very well because the hit box was slightly extended beyond the sword, just as a punch or kick would be extended beyond the foot.

In Brawl, character hit boxes are almost completely tangent to the character, if not reduced to where it doesn't exist that far beyond the physical character. Marth's sword for example has a hit box that just barely extends to the tip of the blade. I have tried to study Marth's hit boxes only to discover that his hit boxes don't actually hit beyond the sword itself, and the tip hit box is so hard to hit accurately that it can't be used effectively without rigorous practice and visual aid.

The hit box reduction itself eliminated spacing capability for all characters. Even though this isn't extremely bad, it just puts more emphasis on visual spacing than reflex approximations.

Tripping: This is another element that Sakurai used in the sake of "balance". for some reason, he thought that including a random element beyond your control was very suited for what is essentially a fighting game. I can understand items, for they can be controlled and set however you see fit. But tripping itself is randomly executed under certain conditions. It is believed that it happens more a higher percentages to prevent a player from staying alive for certain periods of time. Many people believe that it's simply a sigh of exhaust, but it's actually meant to keep a good player from moving too much at higher percentages of preventing that character from moving constantly. This itself is absolute BS. I have nothing more to say. Anyone who has played the game can conclude that this is an idiotic game element.

Reduced Character Control: Simply put, you don't have as much control over your character in this game. A attacks are automated, Ledge grabbing is easy and automatic, Downward C-stick aerials cause characters to fast fall, and physical movement over your character doesn't feel tight. this is probably due to the speed reduction and the inclusion of the new buffer system that allows commands to be executed in a fraction of time before the animation starts. Also, with random variables like tripping, you can't actually make a move or calculate an attack without risking randomly falling. This nearly forced characters to walk if they want to achieve ground movement without worry. I guess this is for more "aerial combat", but how can you fight in the air without prominent hit stun? How can you land an aerial when the enemy has multiple air dodges at his/her disposal?

Many of the previous competitive aspects of the games actually existed at E For All. An form of wavelanding, L-cancel, Crouch Cancel, Dash dancing and prominent hit stun for many characters. In addition to that, tripping rarely occurred if at all. But they were all intentionally removed so that the game can appeal to the whiny autistic children that Nintendo is catering to.

It seems as if Sakurai's philosophy on the smash series changed over time beyond what the developers really wanted. According to Sakurai, he believes that the Smash series shouldn't be competitive in any way, yet he claims to support the community. In the previous smash games, he didn't completely supervise the development of smash, for the developers actually implemented certain aspects of the game purposely to balance out the games competitive engine. Sakurai actually listened to some of his previous staff for ideas and implemented them into the game engine. Sakurai had an experienced staff with him, but this isn't the case in Brawls development.

Sakurai had a completely foreign staff at his disposal, that supposedly, consisted of numerous smash bros fans (Unknown if they were casual or not). Not only that, they were completely directed by Sakurai himself, under his beliefs and general philosophy. Sakurai isn't exactly a competitive person, and that aspect was directly focused onto Brawls core engine. even if he had many smash bros fans under his wing, they couldn't help but build the game under his general philosophy if that's what Sakurai wanted.

Beyond Sakurai, look at it this way. The previous installments to the smash bros. series were supervised by Nintendo back in the day, when they weren't entirely focused on the casual player, but the loyal fans and the casual players. Looking at Nintendo's philosophy now, how many of you can actually say that this wasn't inevitable? Even if this wasn't created directly from Nintendo, it's still supervised by the same company. With Nintendo's new marketing demographic and target audience, Nintendo obviously wanted this game to cater to the audience that can put more money in their pockets and not give a **** about the game after the initial purchase.

Fighting games in general often progress in their newer installments, which is the opposite of Brawls direction. When developers create a fighting game, they listen to the casual players, but also put emphasis on how the game can advance in the competitive aspect. This ultimately creates a game that is universally fun. The direction of Melee and SSB64 was catered to everyone, which created the great game we have today.

I know a lot of people are going to say "Give the game more time", "This isn't Melee 2.0", "The community wasn't built in a day", "This is how the game was supposed to be", "The game wasn't well polished and the games competitive aspect was created by accident". Sure, one can easily say that these things are true, but just look at Sakurai's philosophies and Nintendo's demographic, it's blatantly obvious that they're way of thinking was going to be taken into effect. Sakurai is non competitive and Nintendo makes their decisions based on economic benefit. One last thing, let me direct you to this article. I didn't find this BTW, credits to Gimpyfish.

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=637

In terms of progress in the series, it's basically like this:

SSBB>SSB64>SSBM

All that aside, Brawl can still be competitive, but only if the community will tolerate the games obvious limitations, which kills the games longevity for casual and competitive players. A casual player can only be casual for so long until they master the basic mechanics and thrive for more. Casual players exist, but they can't exist forever. Progress is a natural process in both gaming and real life.

The theory of Brawl being a "Party game with fighting game aesthetics" is proving to be more true by the day.
 

Yoshi_FTW

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
4
You F'n people with no lives give Brawl a chance the game just came out an people are writing it off as less competitive because what? Exactly they dont even know give the game a year for the players and the community to get good with thier character because trust me nobody is good at the game now. NOBODY wait until we really get a feel for what Brawl is that will take at least a year you people are so whinny and *****y and want to completely write off Brawl for no reason at all other than you prolly got owned by a new kid who just picked up the sticks for the first time. I tell you what get off the forums go play brawl for a year then get back to this argument I highly doubt you will say that Brawl is not competitive.
 

choknater

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Perhaps the game's mechanics lead people to believe the game has less potential to be competitive. In the end, that may be true.

But as long as people like the game and play it, and people are going to want to win... then screw debate and play. Wow. Lol.
 

Two.Of.Hearts

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
111
Location
Annandale, VA
There is no way that Brawl is going to get as big as Melee did. I mean, just no way. Nintendo has made a wonderful fighting game, but went through strict measures to make sure that the learning curve didn't end up nearly as steep as it did for Melee. And, c'mon, who didn't know that most of the "advanced" techniques in Melee were mistakes on the part of the creators (really, you think they were thinking about "waveshining" when they gave fox that move?).

So... yes. It is less competitive, and it will never get as big as its predecessor. Now if, in two or three years, a Brawl tournament brings in 200 people from all around the country, I will admit defeat. However, I seriously doubt that will happen.
 
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