Why do people hate Ganondorf being a Mighty Glacier?

[Quillion]

First off, keep discussion of Ganondorf's moveset out of this.

Now something I don't really understand is why a lot of people seem to hate the fact that Ganondorf is slow. I don't (my complaints are semi-cosmetic and (mostly) not gameplay), but there's this demand to make him faster for some reason.

 

[Coolkidd]

First off, keep discussion of Ganondorf's moveset out of this.

Now something I don't really understand is why a lot of people seem to hate the fact that Ganondorf is slow. I don't (my complaints are semi-cosmetic and (mostly) not gameplay), but there's this demand to make him faster for some reason.

Lack of patience, maybe? I wouldn't know.

 

[Abbey Street]

Probably something to do with Melee where he had deceptive speed that was gained through advanced techniques.

Don't hold me to that though.

 

[MagiusNecros]

His run is stupid in this game.

His run is awesome in Hyrule Warriors.

Also Charizard is heavier then Ganon. Is also faster.

Being slow and powerful is great. But that run. So unfitting of my Dark Lord.

 

[Blobface]

I honestly don't like his HW running. It just looks... undignified. Ganondorf is powerful, evil, and brutal, but he's not some crazed berserker out for blood, he's a king out for POWER.

With that said, his smash running animation does feel lacking. Lean him forward 10-15 degrees and it'd be fine.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If if it is any consolation, Ganondorf in HW is already at the Dark Beast Ganon "don't give a crap all must die if they oppose me" stage.

 

[Xinc]

I like his Melee run speed and look. It allows for more followups than his Brawl one AS WELL AS LOOKS MORE MENACING.

 

[HeavyLobster]

With that said, his smash running animation does feel lacking. Lean him forward 10-15 degrees and it'd be fine.

The problem is that his run animation is comical rather than menacing. Comical animations work fine for King Dedede or someone like that, but Ganondorf is always taken seriously in Zelda canon and that should be reflected in Smash. Other than that I've got no real issues with his core design. I'd like him to have a slightly faster run speed and better grab range for the sake of buffing him, but him being slow and powerful suits him well.

 

[Quillion]

Oh, it's his running animation?

Yeah, I agree. It looks more like a walking animation straight out of a classic Castlevania game and not a real run.

 

[jmanup85]

He should be just a bit faster with his running but the fact that he has so much power makes up for it I guess. His running animation... sucks. But I don't mind that he's slow at all.

 

[Triggerpig]

his runnin animation is hilarious, he looks like he's out for a morning jog XD.
actually I feel his entire design is a bit silly lookin in this one, his expressions for example are ridiculous.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Brawl model is superior. His model in this game is more cartoony.

 

[SwineofWar]

Generally, it comes from not being faithful to his LoZ counterpart. That's kind of the root of all problems with Ganondorf. If he was as badass as he was literally anywhere else, we wouldn't be complaining about anything.

I'm not entirely sure you can talk about this without at least mentioning move sets.

Ganondorf's move set was fundamentally designed for one of the fastest characters in the game. It's weaknesses were meant to be balanced out by Falcon's speed. Making him one of if not the slowest character in the game and then slapping on the move set of one of the fastest creates huge problems naturally. It doesn't matter how strong his attacks become because those attacks were meant for a character with entirely different attributes.

 

[Quillion]

Generally, it comes from not being faithful to his LoZ counterpart. That's kind of the root of all problems with Ganondorf. If he was as badass as he was literally anywhere else, we wouldn't be complaining about anything.

I'm not entirely sure you can talk about this without at least mentioning move sets.

Ganondorf's move set was fundamentally designed for one of the fastest characters in the game. It's weaknesses were meant to be balanced out by Falcon's speed. Making him one of if not the slowest character in the game and then slapping on the move set of one of the fastest creates huge problems naturally. It doesn't matter how strong his attacks become because those attacks were meant for a character with entirely different attributes.

Ganondorf could be whatever the hell competitive balance archetype the developers want him to be (Fragile speedster, Jack of all stats, Glass Cannon...).

Making him either a longer-ranged mage and/or a sword wielder is a completely different question.

 

[Dark Phazon]

How strong he is still is not a fair trade for how slow he is though.
Falcon is still alot better.
I dont think ganon will ever be better than falcon or atleast neck and neck.

Increase his grab range and speed.
Replace wizard foot its garbage replace with dead mans volley or some sort of projectile or get of me defensive attack.
And them 2 things alone will make him tones better.
His UpB should kill like it did in melee aswell.

 

[divade]

I /think/ his complaint is that ganon's moves don't look like the heavy hitting type his character is trying to fit. I can see that, i only see a handful of his atttacks seeming like ganondorf( jab, F-tilt, D-tilt, D-smash (i guess), Fair, bair, Dair.)
I would like a king of evil who can't do the splits, but I don't hate him for it, I personally like faster characters .

 

[Quillion]

I /think/ his complaint is that ganon's moves don't look like the heavy hitting type his character is trying to fit. I can see that, i only see a handful of his atttacks seeming like ganondorf( jab, F-tilt, D-tilt, D-smash (i guess), Fair, bair, Dair.)
I would like a king of evil who can't do the splits, but I don't hate him for it, I personally like faster characters .

Nope, there's definitely both.

Though the complaints about his moveset dwarf that of how slow he is.

 

[divade]

Nope, there's definitely both.

Though the complaints about his moveset dwarf that of how slow he is.

Nope what? Both what?
Yeah I know there are more complaints about moves since he came out in melee.

 

[Quillion]

Nope what? Both what?
Yeah I know there are more complaints about moves since he came out in melee.

I mean that there are yes, complaints about his moveset (see: me), and complaints about how slow he is (which I don't mind).

 

[divade]

Oh yes, I know there are both complainers.

 

[SwineofWar]

Ganondorf could be whatever the hell competitive balance archetype the developers want him to be (Fragile speedster, Jack of all stats, Glass Cannon...).

Making him either a longer-ranged mage and/or a sword wielder is a completely different question.

I know that. I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying.

Ganondorf right now is a punish and tech chase based character.

But he has the move set of a character designed for speedy rush down, give or take a few moves like Flame choke which give him a separate identity. This is why him being slow is a problem.

 

[Darthrai]

Because it's the consequence of his not being one of Sakurai's favorite villains, like Bowser, Dedede, or Hades.

That said, I haven't played SF in depth, but Ganon seems like the Akuma to Falcon's Ryu (ironic that the real deal popped up). You should also see how slow he moves during his final duel in TP.

 

[Quillion]

Because it's the consequence of his not being one of Sakurai's favorite villains, like Bowser, Dedede, or Hades.

That said, I haven't played SF in depth, but Ganon seems like the Akuma to Falcon's Ryu (ironic that the real deal popped up). You should also see how slow he moves during his final duel in TP.

But he suddenly rushes forward a lot after walking a bit. He does the same in Wind Waker.

Also, Akuma is faster, stronger, yet "lighter" than Ryu is.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Because it's the consequence of his not being one of Sakurai's favorite villains, like Bowser, Dedede, or Hades.

That said, I haven't played SF in depth, but Ganon seems like the Akuma to Falcon's Ryu (ironic that the real deal popped up). You should also see how slow he moves during his final duel in TP.

Actually, accordingly, Ganondorf was Sakurai's favorite character to play as in Smash. At least in Brawl apparently. Its likely even the exact reason Ganondorf sucked ass in Brawl; Sakurai overemphasized Ganondorf's strengths because he was best at playing Ganondorf.

 

[Darthrai]

Actually, accordingly, Ganondorf was Sakurai's favorite character to play as in Smash. At least in Brawl apparently. Its likely even the exact reason Ganondorf sucked *** in Brawl; Sakurai overemphasized Ganondorf's strengths because he was best at playing Ganondorf.

That's kind of odd... it would explain a lot of things, but it's hard to fathom that Sakurai's favorite character is a villain with a largely cloned moveset from a series he's hardly been involved with.

 

[JaidynReiman]

That's kind of odd... it would explain a lot of things, but it's hard to fathom that Sakurai's favorite character is a villain with a largely cloned moveset from a series he's hardly been involved with.

Not Sakurai's favorite character period. Favorite character to PLAY as. There's a huge difference.


Marth was my favorite character to play as in the past two games, but he's not even close to my favorite character in the game.

 

[Darthrai]

Not Sakurai's favorite character period. Favorite character to PLAY as. There's a huge difference.


Marth was my favorite character to play as in the past two games, but he's not even close to my favorite character in the game.

I see what you mean - Charizard is one of my favorite characters in Smash, but by no means one of my favorites to play as, since his moveset has been crap so far (we'll see how he fares with his new throws).

Still, if Sakurai outright enjoys Ganondorf's current moveset, that's a bit easier to accept than him giving Ganon the shaft for not being from one of his favored series.

 

[Shmeckie]

Ganon's moveset is a combination of retaining his Melee moveset and tweaking it to seperate himself from Falcon. Sakurai and Friends don't want to radically change characters and risk alienating people who mained them before. Which is an entirely fair point. Practical gameplay trumps fanservice any day.

This "his moveset isn't appropriate" speil is just nonsense. Just because he emphasizes hand-to-hand combat doesn't mean he somehow has some moveset that's inherently hampering him. He's a read-and-punish type character, which has existed in Fighting Games since time immemorial (Geese Howard, anyone?). His moveset works entirely different than Falcons, resembling his moves now only aesthetically. The Akuma-Ryu comparison was actually quite apt; just because Akuma and Ryu use the Hadoken, Shoryuken, Tastumaki Senpukyaku, and have similar punches and kicks doesn't mean they're not drastically different in both playstyle and application. Like Ryu and Akuma, at this point Falcon and Ganon are just using the same fighting style. Even the animations of their attacks are noticeably different, now.

And on the topic of his run animation, I've mentioned this before; Ganondorf is wearing a full set of bulky armor. The way he runs is the actual, real-world way you're supposed to run in heavy armor. And before anyone brings up magic powers and some such, since his revamp in Brawl his entire moveset now heavily implies he's holding back. Like he can't compete in Smash if he actually uses his full power. Down taunt that implies "I could use this, but I don't need to"; powerful Warlock Punch done with his non-dominant hand and a backhand instead of a more powerful straight punch; his Final Smash involves his turning into Beast Ganon just long enough to do one lunge and that lone is a virtual OHKO (and he's the fastest in Smash doing that lunge to boot); much of his ground attacks being simple, low-effort boot strikes; the list goes on and on. So Ganon's running like that because he's simply physically running.

As for the topic at hand; most Smash players tend to prefer a rushdown, or zoning style of play. A character that's slow and requires patience and reads is too much for a lot of players, especially vocal ones who are the type to cry "X character sucks" on an internet forum. Ganon's not a beginner character by any means. People pick him up and often get frustrated because you can't just run in with Ganon and do what you want.

 

[Tino]

I like his running animation though. He may be slow, which I think makes up for his brute strenght, but also pretty funny.

 

[link2702]

simply put, he feels a little "too" slow.

Perfectly fine with ganon being a patient mighty glacier but sometimes it feels like even when you get a good read on someone, you still can end up being punished because ganondorf is too slow, getting punished even when you make a read on someone else is just wrong.

this was far worse in brawl then smash4 of course.

Personally I feel if they'd just give a couple more of his moves super armor frames and/or make some have a little less end lag(dair) he might be fine, He's still massively better then he was in brawl of course..

 

[Hyrus]

The problem with this character is that everything he does is very punishable. Even his beefy attacks, his supposed strength as a "mighty glacier", can simply be shielded or dodged safely. Once in his personal space, Ganon has attacks and grabs that are too short or slow and he gets destroyed. Everything he does in the air is easily readable and punishable, so he gets destroyed there too. His recovery options are very poor and with his short air jump and bad horizontal speed, he can get gimped at some very silly percentages for a heavy class character.

The only place Ganon can work well is in the very specific side-b zone, where the enemy can't just auto-shield for the win. For a character who's mobility, attack speed, shield pressure and defensive options are gimped, this is the one spot where he excels and he just doesn't excel that well. In smash, you need to have different options to fake out, mind game and outplay your opponent. Movement and physics are a big part of what makes Smash Bros unique as a fighting game, and when you take that away you just don't have much to work with and you're forced to approach with bad physics and limited, unsafe moves.

Now, Ike is another slow character. But Ike has a gigantic *disjointed* sword arc which gives him range to bait and punish with some amount of on-shield safety. And despite being slow, his jab is quick, his side-b gives him a lot of mobility/recovery and his down-B can punish aggressive characters instantly. He's a slow character, but he still gets some fast moves to deal with the transitions of combat.

Mr. Sakurai seems to think that heavy weight characters need to have that advantage negated through being easy to combo and juggle. He also seems to think those characters automatically need to have massive landing lag on their aerials. For every 1 point of power you gain, you lose 2 points of speed and it just doesn't add up. I mean, Ganon's uTilt is just another version of his neutralB because Sakurai thinks balancing the character around goofing off in free for all is what the game is about and continues to resist the competitive interest in his game.

 

[Shmeckie]

The problem with this character is that everything he does is very punishable. Even his beefy attacks, his supposed strength as a "mighty glacier", can simply be shielded or dodged safely. Once in his personal space, Ganon has attacks and grabs that are too short or slow and he gets destroyed. Everything he does in the air is easily readable and punishable, so he gets destroyed there too. His recovery options are very poor and with his short air jump and bad horizontal speed, he can get gimped at some very silly percentages for a heavy class character.

The only place Ganon can work well is in the very specific side-b zone, where the enemy can't just auto-shield for the win. For a character who's mobility, attack speed, shield pressure and defensive options are gimped, this is the one spot where he excels and he just doesn't excel that well. In smash, you need to have different options to fake out, mind game and outplay your opponent. Movement and physics are a big part of what makes Smash Bros unique as a fighting game, and when you take that away you just don't have much to work with and you're forced to approach with bad physics and limited, unsafe moves.

Now, Ike is another slow character. But Ike has a gigantic *disjointed* sword arc which gives him range to bait and punish with some amount of on-shield safety. And despite being slow, his jab is quick, his side-b gives him a lot of mobility/recovery and his down-B can punish aggressive characters instantly. He's a slow character, but he still gets some fast moves to deal with the transitions of combat.

Mr. Sakurai seems to think that heavy weight characters need to have that advantage negated through being easy to combo and juggle. He also seems to think those characters automatically need to have massive landing lag on their aerials. For every 1 point of power you gain, you lose 2 points of speed and it just doesn't add up. I mean, Ganon's uTilt is just another version of his neutralB because Sakurai thinks balancing the character around goofing off in free for all is what the game is about and continues to resist the competitive interest in his game.

All of this says to me you're trying to go aggro with Ganon. Not sure where you're getting that his air game is readable and punishable considering how fast many of his aerials are. And his aerials have some pretty minor landing recovery compared to many other attacks, and his landing recovery was even buffed in the first balance patch. Have you tried spacing with shorthopped n-airs? Also you highlight Ike's disjoints, but several of Ganon's attacks are disjoints as well, or at least have disjointed hitboxes at one part of his attacking limb. And he strikes far quicker than Ike. His f-smash alone is both much faster, and much stronger than Ike's.

Also what are you talking about with Neutral B and u-tilt being the same? Because they have long startups they're the same attack? U-tilt has a vaccuum effect, large explosion hitbox, instantly breaks shields on the sweetspot, and hits below the floor for edgeguarding. Warlock Punch is stronger than u-tilt, can be reversed, has super armor, and a smaller hitbox. Both are vastly different attacks.

For a slow heavyweight much of Ganon's actual arsenal is quite fast. His f-tilt and d-tilt have faster recovery than most heavyweight tilts, and his u-smash can be cancelled out of ridiculously quickly. Not to mention his aerials, with only his d-air having any kind of sizable startup. Not to mention while his d-air may have a lot of recovery frames if you land with it, in the air it recovers quite quickly. pretty good for being the game's strongest meteor smash.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Ganon's moveset is a combination of retaining his Melee moveset and tweaking it to seperate himself from Falcon. Sakurai and Friends don't want to radically change characters and risk alienating people who mained them before. Which is an entirely fair point. Practical gameplay trumps fanservice any day.

This "his moveset isn't appropriate" speil is just nonsense. Just because he emphasizes hand-to-hand combat doesn't mean he somehow has some moveset that's inherently hampering him. He's a read-and-punish type character, which has existed in Fighting Games since time immemorial (Geese Howard, anyone?). His moveset works entirely different than Falcons, resembling his moves now only aesthetically. The Akuma-Ryu comparison was actually quite apt; just because Akuma and Ryu use the Hadoken, Shoryuken, Tastumaki Senpukyaku, and have similar punches and kicks doesn't mean they're not drastically different in both playstyle and application. Like Ryu and Akuma, at this point Falcon and Ganon are just using the same fighting style. Even the animations of their attacks are noticeably different, now.

And on the topic of his run animation, I've mentioned this before; Ganondorf is wearing a full set of bulky armor. The way he runs is the actual, real-world way you're supposed to run in heavy armor. And before anyone brings up magic powers and some such, since his revamp in Brawl his entire moveset now heavily implies he's holding back. Like he can't compete in Smash if he actually uses his full power. Down taunt that implies "I could use this, but I don't need to"; powerful Warlock Punch done with his non-dominant hand and a backhand instead of a more powerful straight punch; his Final Smash involves his turning into Beast Ganon just long enough to do one lunge and that lone is a virtual OHKO (and he's the fastest in Smash doing that lunge to boot); much of his ground attacks being simple, low-effort boot strikes; the list goes on and on. So Ganon's running like that because he's simply physically running.

As for the topic at hand; most Smash players tend to prefer a rushdown, or zoning style of play. A character that's slow and requires patience and reads is too much for a lot of players, especially vocal ones who are the type to cry "X character sucks" on an internet forum. Ganon's not a beginner character by any means. People pick him up and often get frustrated because you can't just run in with Ganon and do what you want.

A backfist, weaker than a straight punch? Surely you jest!

 

[Dark Phazon]

He needs a kill throw.
Better grab range and grab speed.
UP B nees to kill.
And thats probly it.
I think he should stay super slow and strong but he can still be viable.

Also if anything it would be sweet if wizkick got replaced.
Even though warlock punch and up tilt are really fun and crazy when they hit it probly be best for the character if they were replaced with more practical moves.
I think warlock P should stay though