Why can't I say the word "****" casually?

[Deleted member]

In a thread Aorist got upset when a bunch of us used "****" in a colloquial context.

Why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation

Art, music, law, language - they all evolve. Saying **** casually does not legitimize, condone, or trivialize the word. The word has simply changed to also become, essentially, a synonym of the gamer term "own."

For example:

"I owned that test" is synonymous to "I ***** that test."

Where's the problem here?

*tries to spur the debate hall*

 

[Aorist]

1) Because of psychology. If the same pathways are used for "****" as a positive term, it will become natural for you to think of **** in a positive way. It's the same thing with "gay" used to mean "anything bad". Investigate cognitive dissonance

2) It contributes to a culture of oppression. Because of 1), **** victims are marginalised even more than they already are.

3) Not to mention, it makes it uncomfortable for people who are victims of ****. Even if you don't think you're trivialising ****, how do you think you'd feel if what would probably be the worst experience of your life was used in that context. Probably fairly terrible, I'd gander.

I should note that I have not been, and am unlikely to be, *****.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Ha, this is the second "****" debate I've seen in as many weeks.

I think the problem is one of political correctness. You can't say anything that might be offensive to someone. You'll always hear, "Well I know someone who was *****!" That's unfortunate for that person, but what does that have to do with how I speak? Even people who don't have any personal experience with **** jump on their high horses.

Then of course come the generalizations. "Saying the word '****' around a **** victim makes them feel bad." Really? All of them? I know a girl who was *****, and I used to walk on eggshells around her until one day I heard her use the word **** casually. Would it be fair for me to generalize that all women are okay with **** based on this one piece of anecdotal evidence? Of course not. But it seems like when we're discussing topics that result in the denial of word usage, it's fine to generalize that everyone gets super-offended and have the same ******** level of reaction to the use of words.

I use the word "****" casually, and I always will. If an individual has a problem with that, then I will respect that individual and not use the word around her (this does not apply to guys; get down off your cross, geez). But I'm not going to stop using a word because it might offend someone.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I use the word "****" casually, and I always will. If an individual has a problem with that, then I will respect that individual and not use the word around her (this does not apply to guys; get down off your cross, geez). But I'm not going to stop using a word because it might offend someone.

This. I also use the word casually, as I use the word gay casually. However, if someone has a problem with it, then I respect their choice and do not use it.

Aorist, I don't understand how the use of a word casually contributes to the oppression of the culture. It may offend some them, but in no way does it oppress them or put them down as a whole.

 

[Eor]

I use the word **** sometimes to refer to something being dominated, because that's a valid use of the word. I don't use it otherwise because I think it sounds stupid. I look down on people who do as being douchebags, not because of the word but because of who I see using it

 

[Aorist]

Aorist, I don't understand how the use of a word casually contributes to the oppression of the culture. It may offend some them, but in no way does it oppress them or put them down as a whole.

Right, are you familiar with cognitive dissonance? It's where your words and your actions contradict what you are thinking, and so your attitudes and thinking change to match your actions. Here's the wiki on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Even if you originally think that **** is bad, because you are using it to mean a good thing, your attitudes will change, even if only slightly.

Now, clearly, having a society in which a whole bunch of people are more accepting of the idea of **** is going to make the society more accepting of ****. I really hope I don't need to spell out how that oppresses people and contributes to a culture in which victims of **** are marginalised.

I think the problem is one of political correctness. You can't say anything that might be offensive to someone. You'll always hear, "Well I know someone who was *****!" That's unfortunate for that person, but what does that have to do with how I speak? Even people who don't have any personal experience with **** jump on their high horses.

You're going to throw the idea of freedom of speech at me? Seriously?

How people feel is often based on how other people treat this. This isn't really that complicated of an idea. If you're going to talk in a way that offends people, really, that is your own choice, but it does mean you are behaving in an extraordinarily jerk-ish fashion. Do you often use the word "******"? I'm going to assume no, so you have to work out why not. I'm guessing that you won't be able to form a reason that you can't also apply to the word "****".

Then of course come the generalizations. "Saying the word '****' around a **** victim makes them feel bad." Really? All of them? I know a girl who was *****, and I used to walk on eggshells around her until one day I heard her use the word **** casually. Would it be fair for me to generalize that all women are okay with **** based on this one piece of anecdotal evidence? Of course not. But it seems like when we're discussing topics that result in the denial of word usage, it's fine to generalize that everyone gets super-offended and have the same ******** level of reaction to the use of words.

No, saying the word '****' in a way that trivialises it makes them feel bad. It's not just the word ****, it's the way you're using it. I honestly don't think that it is that much of a generalisation to make - when you treat something that was an exceptionally horrible experience for someone as a good thing, they're going to be upset. There's not an exceptional mental jump here. And even if there are a couple of people who don't mind, well, it's not like they'll be unhappy if they hear the word '****' less. It's not about the people who don't mind, it's about the people who do.

I use the word "****" casually, and I always will. If an individual has a problem with that, then I will respect that individual and not use the word around her (this does not apply to guys; get down off your cross, geez). But I'm not going to stop using a word because it might offend someone.

This is not a very good attitude to go into a debate with. A complete inability to change your mind. And for crying out loud. It's not like I'm asking you to go to extreme effort. I'm not asking you to go out and give money to **** victims, or to build a house or anything. It's just not using a single word, when there are plenty of words that would do in its place.

And did you seriously just deny the fact that **** happens to men?

 

[Jam Stunna]

You're going to throw the idea of freedom of speech at me? Seriously?

How people feel is often based on how other people treat this. This isn't really that complicated of an idea. If you're going to talk in a way that offends people, really, that is your own choice, but it does mean you are behaving in an extraordinarily jerk-ish fashion. Do you often use the word "******"? I'm going to assume no, so you have to work out why not. I'm guessing that you won't be able to form a reason that you can't also apply to the word "****".

I'm going to assume the word you wrote is either "faggot" or "nigger". And yes, I use both words regularly, the former far more often than the latter.

A word I don't use is "bitch", because I don't like it. But I don't ask other people not to say it.

No, saying the word '****' in a way that trivialises it makes them feel bad. It's not just the word ****, it's the way you're using it. I honestly don't think that it is that much of a generalisation to make - when you treat something that was an exceptionally horrible experience for someone as a good thing, they're going to be upset. There's not an exceptional mental jump here. And even if there are a couple of people who don't mind, well, it's not like they'll be unhappy if they hear the word '****' less. It's not about the people who don't mind, it's about the people who do.

Who said I was trivializing ****? You know, a word can have two different meanings totally independent of each other.

This is not a very good attitude to go into a debate with. A complete inability to change your mind. And for crying out loud. It's not like I'm asking you to go to extreme effort. I'm not asking you to go out and give money to **** victims, or to build a house or anything. It's just not using a single word, when there are plenty of words that would do in its place.

And did you seriously just deny the fact that **** happens to men?

Since when is it a right not to get offended? Where is it codified in law that you as an individual have the right to go through life without having hurtful, disrespectful or mean things said to or around you? You may not like it, and I may in fact be a humongous jerk, but that's life. It's not wrong to get offended, but it doesn't make other people wrong because they don't get offended by the same things you do.

And no, I'm not denying male ****. But it's so incredibly rare that I don't think I need to worry about hurting the feelings of such a small minority of people.

 

[Aorist]

Who said I was trivializing ****? You know, a word can have two different meanings totally independent of each other.

That's true. But they didn't go "Oh, I like that 'r' sound, and the "ape" bit is just dandy". The usage is completely derived from the proper usage of the word "****".

Since when is it a right not to get offended? Where is it codified in law that you as an individual have the right to go through life without having hurtful, disrespectful or mean things said to or around you? You may not like it, and I may in fact be a humongous jerk, but that's life. It's not wrong to get offended, but it doesn't make other people wrong because they don't get offended by the same things you do.

Yes, but though you are techinically allowed to say it, you oughtn't. I'm not arguing that using the word "****" to mean "pwn" or whatever should be against the law, I'm just arguing that you shouldn't use it.

And no, I'm not denying male ****. But it's so incredibly rare that I don't think I need to worry about hurting the feelings of such a small minority of people.

Yeah, please do some research before you say that. Massive citation needed.

 

[Narukari]

It just depends highly on the situation you are in. Using '****' in a casual manner is perfectly fine in a casual situation. It's just when you aren't in a casual situation that problems start arising. If you are playing smash at a friends house with a few buddies and you three stock him and respond 'I totally ***** you', then nobody really cares and you go on with your business.

It just depends on what you consider a casual situation. I don't consider the mall a place where you can use the same casual language as you would at home. Of course there's nothing illegal about it, and it should never be illegal to say what you feel. But you never know who might overhear you in those situations. You might even be near a possible future employer of yours. It's probably also not a good idea to say you '*****' a 7-year-old child when you win against him in smash. It just depends on the situations whether the language is appropriate or not. I would never use the word '*****' at a public smash tournament or any other area.

Pretty much it just boils down to it is fine for you to say '****' whenever you want to, but it is also perfectly fine for others to be offended. If you have no problem with offending other people then you could probably easily say it in public, but I prefer not to offend people so I stay away from loaded words like that, when another word would get my meaning across just the same without hurting other people.

And, Jam, are you now saying you shouldn't care about people if they are a minority? Even if men are ***** less than women it is horrible to say that we shouldn't even consider them when dealing with ****.

And before you said that you would refrain from using the word '****' if a woman asked you to, but you wouldn't care if a man asked you to. That is blatant sexism. Men can be offended by the use of the word '****' just as much as women are. You don't actually have to be ***** to find it offensive. My friends know that I am offended by stronger language and they refrain from using it around me. I am thankful to them for that as well.

Just because I am a man doesn't mean I should be expected to 'tough it out' if something bothers me. You seem to have predefined gender roles and you try to apply them to everyone else, as shown from your "this does not apply to guys; get down off your cross, geez".

 

[Amide]

I'm going to agree with Aorist on this one, people will unknowingly associate words from their slang meanings to real meanings. Also, was it really unintentional for the gamer term **** to come from the crime ****?

I'm going to assume the word you wrote is either "faggot" or "nigger". And yes, I use both words regularly, the former far more often than the latter.

Why do you use demeaning terms like those often? Aren't there other words you can use instead to describe a stupid person? It isn't about being against swearing. I don't see a problem with saying f*** sh** or d***. Can I please receive an explanation for why the words fa**ot and ni**** are so great?

 

[Narukari]

IWhy do you use demeaning terms like those often? Aren't there other words you can use instead to describe a stupid person? It isn't about being against swearing. I don't see a problem with saying f*** sh** or d***. Can I please receive an explanation for why the words fa**ot and ni**** are so great?

It has nothing to do with which words you use. Someone could find '****', '****', or '****' offensive but '******'and '******' fine to use. Different people are going to find different things offensive. It's better just to avoid the most offensive things while you're around other people in public, and it's ok to be a little more loose when you're only around people that you know won't take any offense to the words.

Also I find it pointless to censor words when you are trying to discuss about the usage of them.

edit: crap nevermind the boards censored them for me >.<.

 

[Amide]

Yeah, that's why I semi censored them, so you can tell what they were. It's kinda hard to respond to your post without knowing everything you're saying, but I do have to say that even with people that wouldn't care, you still shouldn't use offensive slurs with them around. It's harmful to desensitize people to hate.

 

[Crimson King]

In an argument on this, my main issue was why is **** untouchable but murder isn't: simple, a person can survive **** with no obvious evidence of such. If you say, "man I ***** that guy at [game]," while an accurate use of it, you could easily trigger feelings that people do not want to ever relive. With murder, yes, you can hit someone who has experienced a love one being murdered, but they didn't experience it first hand like the victim of ****.

The issue isn't are you or aren't you trivializing ****, which you are every time you say it out of context, but it's using a word that has powerful connotations of pain and everlasting scars as something so casual that hurts people.

 

[illinialex24]

Its because you don't want a word that is so powerful to mean something so normal, it being used in normal talk as normal.

Many words shouldn't be used how they are, kind of like how people use the word "gay" to mean "this really sucks", which associates being gay with being essentially inferior.

 

[Deleted member]

In an argument on this, my main issue was why is **** untouchable but murder isn't: simple, a person can survive **** with no obvious evidence of such. If you say, "man I ***** that guy at [game]," while an accurate use of it, you could easily trigger feelings that people do not want to ever relive. With murder, yes, you can hit someone who has experienced a love one being murdered, but they didn't experience it first hand like the victim of ****.

The issue isn't are you or aren't you trivializing ****, which you are every time you say it out of context, but it's using a word that has powerful connotations of pain and everlasting scars as something so casual that hurts people.

Okay, so take your murder example. I'd say murder is definitively worse, because that implies death.

Yet we still say things like, "I murdered that test." Substitute murder for decimate, slaughtered, killed, etc.

And we don't have a problem with this?

 

[ArcPoint]

****, I think you aren't obligated to omit it in extremely casual situations. In my opinion using the word "****" in place of "dominated" or even using "murder" is a little disrespectful and informal. Like others have said, I wouldn't be using it at the mall, or in any sort of "formal" situation. I think it's okay in informal situations so long as another person doesn't ask you to stop it. Blatantly ignoring a request such as not using... "A word that has powerful connotations of pain and everlasting scars" isn't very respectful, but I suppose you have the right to say whatever.

 

[Deleted member]

We use **** also in terms of war. There are literally hegemonic definitions of **** that involve non-sexual acts.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ This kind of remind me of why you can't say *** with out it being a curse word because the old term of *** means donkey, or an idiot. Now it's most of the US meaning of the word *** means someone's buttocks... how a term like that get twisted to a meaning like that I'll never know. In our gaming world, most of use is filmier with our use of the term ****, meaning getting destroyed till the end by performing a lot of tricks to beat the other guy, (right?), now most of the world term of **** as used as of today means on person is defenseless while the other just keep attacking with no regrets. You know what I mean? ☆

 

[Crimson King]

Okay, so take your murder example. I'd say murder is definitively worse, because that implies death.

Yet we still say things like, "I murdered that test." Substitute murder for decimate, slaughtered, killed, etc.

And we don't have a problem with this?

I'd say **** is worse because the victims can survive it. If you have ever read ANY examples of women who were *****, but repressed it and had to relive it in therapy, it is probably one of the most horrible experiences ever. **** is the demolition of trust, respect, and love into an act so despicable that that perpetrator doesn't even deserve death because it's too good. In prison, Rapists and child molesters are usually the first to get sodomized by other prisoners.

 

[KrazyGlue]

I'm gonna have to side with Jan Stunna on this one. Word meanings change. And like he and delorted said, "****" has multiple definitions. In no way does using "****" in terms of that particular definition trivialize the regular definition. That's like saying we shouldn't use "******" to mean making something slow.

Of course if someone says the word makes them uncomfortable, or if I am in a formal conversation I would not use it as slang (I rarely do anyway). That much is common courtesy. But otherwise, I don't really see anything wrong with it.

 

[Mewter]

You can say it casually. Just try not to use it around those who would feel hurt by that word.
There are thousands of replacement words you can use in place of it, anyways, so I don't see the point of using it.

 

[Jam Stunna]

You can say it casually. Just try not to use it around those who would feel hurt by that word.
There are thousands of replacement words you can use in place of it, anyways, so I don't see the point of using it.

I have no problem with this attitude. What I don't like is when people say "You can't use that word anywhere, EVER." I'm not trying to be an insensitive jerk, but if I'm hanging out with a bunch of guys and I say, "Man, [insert team name here] got *****!", what's the big deal?

 

[aeghrur]

I would guess that the big deal is saying it in public.
Saying it private, no big deal.
Saying it in public where you can bring back the traumatic experiences and also make people feel insecure, big deal.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say **** is worse because the victims can survive it. If you have ever read ANY examples of women who were *****, but repressed it and had to relive it in therapy, it is probably one of the most horrible experiences ever. **** is the demolition of trust, respect, and love into an act so despicable that that perpetrator doesn't even deserve death because it's too good. In prison, Rapists and child molesters are usually the first to get sodomized by other prisoners.

Okay, it's arguable that the implications behind "****" can be worse than "murder". (I disagree.) But that's irrelevant - both are despicable acts, yet we use both in terms of contest, sport, skill, etc.

 

[Aorist]

If you have ever read ANY examples of women who were *****, but repressed it and had to relive it in therapy, it is probably one of the most horrible experiences ever.

Interestingly, and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, there is considerable debate in psychology currently going on over whether or not the majority of these are due to actual ***** or confabulation due to the therapists asking leading questions.

That's like saying we shouldn't use "******" to mean making something slow.

If you are referring to its meaning as, say "retarding growth in a plant species", that's not a fair analogy, as you aren't saying that being mentally disabled is a bad thing.

I have no problem with this attitude. What I don't like is when people say "You can't use that word anywhere, EVER." I'm not trying to be an insensitive jerk, but if I'm hanging out with a bunch of guys and I say, "Man, [insert team name here] got *****!", what's the big deal?

Because you will reinforce the notion in their minds as well if they continue to use it. Not to mention the whole thing I said about cognitive dissonance - it's not just about offending people, it's also about what it does to your mental connections.

 

[KrazyGlue]

If you are referring to its meaning as, say "retarding growth in a plant species", that's not a fair analogy, as you aren't saying that being mentally disabled is a bad thing.

But that word is an offensive term if used in a different context, and offends people almost, if not as much, as "****" does. My point is that there are different definitions, and in casual conversation, when nobody says it offends them, there's no reason not to use the alternate definition.

And while the bit about cognitive dissonance is true, (people who use the alternative definition often may think of it as positive in terms of general connotation) that does not mean we won't be mature and aware enough to know when or when not to use the term.