Why 3.5 is bad for squirtle (+additional discussion)

[Swooty]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks his withdraw move is still needed for keeping combos. I do think that new squirtle is good after playing with him a few hours. But I don't like the way I have to play now.

"Squirtle needs it for combos" =/= "I need it for combos"

There's a distinct difference. I get it if you're having trouble with him now, but it is genuinely important to differentiate between the subjective (Opinions, personal changes) vs objective (Facts, character changes)

 

[Thetoymaker787]

"Squirtle needs it for combos" =/= "I need it for combos"

There's a distinct difference. I get it if you're having trouble with him now, but it is genuinely important to differentiate between the subjective (Opinions, personal changes) vs objective (Facts, character changes)

Okay your right, and I can play without it (the way I see people play on recorded tournaments). But here is the facts: you can bubble beam then withdraw back air withdraw oposite direction back air then do if forward again and do it over Andover till they are in front of you then forward air and chase off edge to kill. This works because you can hit so fast that they are kept in helpless. If they di out of it and you miss a withdraw (happens) then you can turn around withdraw and jump to hit them. It's what I do and I can match very good players with it (I just only have a film of Lucas cause he is a local player and I don't get to fight the pros that are out of town very often) so it may be my opinion that that is a good combo but it works so it's is fact that withdraw can be used to keep combos going.

 

[~Dad~]

Okay your right, and I can play without it (the way I see people play on recorded tournaments). But here is the facts: you can bubble beam then withdraw back air withdraw oposite direction back air then do if forward again and do it over Andover till they are in front of you then forward air and chase off edge to kill. This works because you can hit so fast that they are kept in helpless. If they di out of it and you miss a withdraw (happens) then you can turn around withdraw and jump to hit them. It's what I do and I can match very good players with it (I just only have a film of Lucas cause he is a local player and I don't get to fight the pros that are out of town very often) so it may be my opinion that that is a good combo but it works so it's is fact that withdraw can be used to keep combos going.

Withdraw can be used to extend combos still, but just so you know, withdraw > withdraw > withdraw wasn't a true combo in 3.0

You can just DI down and tech it.

 

[Swooty]

Okay your right, and I can play without it (the way I see people play on recorded tournaments). But here is the facts: you can bubble beam then withdraw back air withdraw oposite direction back air then do if forward again and do it over Andover till they are in front of you then forward air and chase off edge to kill. This works because you can hit so fast that they are kept in helpless. If they di out of it and you miss a withdraw (happens) then you can turn around withdraw and jump to hit them. It's what I do and I can match very good players with it (I just only have a film of Lucas cause he is a local player and I don't get to fight the pros that are out of town very often) so it may be my opinion that that is a good combo but it works so it's is fact that withdraw can be used to keep combos going.

This was an ok strategy that get's punished by high level players. This used to be my strategy unitl I started playing better people at Xanadu, and got wrecked. I had to adapt. Solution? Bubble with missed tech confirms into dtilt which sends them to a perfect uair height. If they do tech, you can read it with a wavedash, or if you read that they're gonna tech away, you can STILL side b into them without having to turn around!

Squirtle's side b strategies before were good against people new to the matchups. It was a gimmick, and it was pretty annoying to other players. Now he feels fair to fight. He has to rely on basic fundamentals, and players will have to use all of his tools, which I'm happy about personally

You can just DI down and tech it.

Yes, crouch cancel is the bane of side b squirtles

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Withdraw can be used to extend combos still, but just so you know, withdraw > withdraw > withdraw wasn't a true combo in 3.0

You can just DI down and tech it.

I know it can be teched, but you can act out of it so you can hit with something else. When I first started playing squirtle my friends nicknamed me spammer cause all I would do is spam withdraw. But that was over a year ago. I don't use it like that at all. I do (before update) use it to turn around in air to keep combos going. But since the update, if you miss you get punished to hard to make it worth using and you risk falling off stage

 

[Swooty]

if you miss you get punished to hard to make it worth using

The move was never super safe to begin with, and now it's less safe, but there were always safer options. A lot of those options are still just as safe, if not safer than before

 

[~Dad~]

I know it can be teched, but you can act out of it so you can hit with something else. When I first started playing squirtle my friends nicknamed me spammer cause all I would do is spam withdraw. But that was over a year ago. I don't use it like that at all. I do (before update) use it to turn around in air to keep combos going. But since the update, if you miss you get punished to hard to make it worth using and you risk falling off stage

You could literally tech it before you got hit by the followup.

Oh and just don't side b off the stage, that's always been a bad thing to do.

 

[Thetoymaker787]

You could literally tech it before you got hit by the followup.

Oh and just don't side b off the stage, that's always been a bad thing to do.

No no no, I mean you can turn around before you go off stage in 3.2, and also you can aj back to stage if your feeling daring (not usually good) but if they tech it and you back air then they can't usually do much because of the hurt box distance on squirtle's tail (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[~Dad~]

No no no, I mean you can turn around before you go off stage in 3.2, and also you can aj back to stage if your feeling daring (not usually good) but if they tech it and you back air then they can't usually do much because of the hurt box distance on squirtle's tail (correct me if I'm wrong)

Be more careful with side b now.

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Be more careful with side b now.

Yes sir, haha, I am hardly using it now. I'm really just playing without it at the moment. Just lots of wave dashes now

 

[Sayuri]

IMO, the withdraw changes were needed. I looked to a lot of tournament matches on youtube and many of those were boring and using the cheap withdraw everywhere. For aquajet, I think it was good to mix up your recovery but other than that, it was not needed that much. I took a look to other threads in other characters and from what I've seen, every character has been nerfed at some point and squirtle is far from the one suffering the most from changes. The reduced height of the sh makes him better in my opinion. Something I noticed after watching Squirtle games on youtube is that there is not a lot of people who takes advantage of the shellshift jump and the invincibility of his tail (bair) to edgeguard.

 

[MrAzureKun]

Couple of things:
This is actually, 100% factually incorrect.

I'm really curious dad, how do you feel abbot the new AJ compared to the old one?
Also how would you tweak the new withdraw to keep squirtle with enough tech to throw out?

 

[~Dad~]

I'm really curious dad, how do you feel abbot the new AJ compared to the old one?

In 3.0 I used aquajet almost exclusively for recovery, so it's a huge adjustment for me. I think it's going to end up being a really good move, but the patch has only been out for a few days, so I haven't fully developed my opinions on 3.5 Squirtle yet.

Also how would you tweak the new withdraw to keep squirtle with enough tech to throw out?

I uhh don't really understand the question here.

 

[MrAzureKun]

I uhh don't really understand the question here.

This is a previous statement from yourself.

Turnaround was useful at higher levels of play though, it could be used for extremely fast baits, or to cover roll options like in this gyf. (Watch when I have his back to the ledge, I double turn around in withdraw to cover any quick grounded advances and catch him trying to roll past me.)
https://gfycat.com/PhonyYellowBernesemountaindog

I was wondering if you felt strongly enough to want some changes or if you were just stating its uses from before.

 

[~Dad~]

I was wondering if you felt strongly enough to want some changes or if you were just stating its uses from before.

I wish it could still jump to make it safer upon exit, but the whole point of the nerfs seem to be to give the move more commitment so w/e.

Overall I think new withdraw is fine, even though old withdraw was actually not that hard to deal with once you figured it out.

 

[MrAzureKun]

I wish it could still jump to make it safer upon exit, but the whole point of the nerfs seem to be to give the move more commitment so w/e.

Overall I think new withdraw is fine, even though old withdraw was actually not that hard to deal with once you figured it out.

Noted thanks ^-^
I'm still really new to squirt man and competitive play in general so I'm not really sure on a few things.
I'll continue to float around the forums for help though. Really glad you could take the time to help.

Thanks alot,
MrAzureKun

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Can you stage spike and safely recover with new aj?

 

[~Dad~]

Can you stage spike and safely recover with new aj?

I mean if you're basically under the ledge and manage to side b directly inside of somebody and perfectly drift on stage, yeah, I guess. I wouldn't advise going for it though lol

 

[MrAzureKun]

Can you stage spike and safely recover with new aj?

Technically?
But it puts you into special fall so I really don't see it as a smart move considering how hard it is to hit.

 

[Swooty]

Technically?
But it puts you into special fall so I really don't see it as a smart move considering how hard it is to hit.

It's purely for swaggin'

 

[MrAzureKun]

It's purely for swaggin'

Ye yu rite

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Haha, so no.

 

[Swooty]

Haha, so no.

It's about as safe as going offstage for a rest, hoping that they die before you, if it even hits

 

[the_irish_dude]

Side B Squirtles is the bane of Squirtles.

 

[PlateProp]

New aqua jet is the ****. Dtilt, Dsmash, and Crawl attack set up into it pretty easy

 

[dirtboy345]

New aqua jet is the ****. Dtilt, Dsmash, and Crawl attack set up into it pretty easy

With the exception of dtilt usmash is better for those situations

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Sweet, thanks for the tips. And lol, rest of edge.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

New aqua jet is the ****. Dtilt, Dsmash, and Crawl attack set up into it pretty easy

Yeah I was playing around with it tonight and I really enjoyed it. I also like it as a tech read on platforms.

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Yeah I was playing around with it tonight and I really enjoyed it. I also like it as a tech read on platforms.

i honestly have not done it one time on purpose. i dont understand the timing

 

[TxZero]

Hi hello it's me the best Squirtle player, 3.5 is good for the game

The goal of 3.5 was to remove elements of toxicity from the game, withdraw in it's previous incarnation was horribly toxic at low levels of play.

I don't feel like going into detail on how I feel about the Squirtle changes, but I like them overall.

Also Dad is actually my Dad irl. Make sure to watch us at PJ Gamers in Broken Arrow, OK November 22nd on Twitch.tv/StockCancelGaming

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Hi hello it's me the best Squirtle player, 3.5 is good for the game

The goal of 3.5 was to remove elements of toxicity from the game, withdraw in it's previous incarnation was horribly toxic at low levels of play.

I don't feel like going into detail on how I feel about the Squirtle changes, but I like them overall.

Also Dad is actually my Dad irl. Make sure to watch us at PJ Gamers in Broken Arrow, OK November 22nd on Twitch.tv/StockCancelGaming

That's pretty sick that you and your dad both play. I'll watch that stream.

I don't understand what you mean by toxic though. I didn't know squirtle could learn that attack. Lol, I don't like what they did with withdraw/waterfall but I also think the changes made home better as a character overall (just a little boring without all the movement options)

 

[~Dad~]

That's pretty sick that you and your dad both play. I'll watch that stream.

We are also lovers. He has a gentle touch that no one else can match. This is why he will be the best Squirtman.

 

[Swooty]

We are also lovers. He has a gentle touch that no one else can match. This is why he will be the best Squirtman.

This is my favorite thing

 

[the_irish_dude]

they dont call him the best SQIRTman for nothing.

 

[GravyJigster]

Meh, I never cared for Withdraw that much, but I'm a ****ty squirtle, so what do I know?

 

[PlateProp]

We are also lovers. He has a gentle touch that no one else can match. This is why he will be the best Squirtman.

Dad's man fetish strikes again

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Dad's man fetish strikes again

Uh, this is not okay...

 

[Thetoymaker787]

We are also lovers. He has a gentle touch that no one else can match. This is why he will be the best Squirtman.

I am not okay with this

 

[Jity]

I'm a robot and even I can see that theirs is a true love. You can't stand between that.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Their love is fierce like waterfall, but pure like spring. It is a beauty that cannot be described.