Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I didn't take the "oh **** I hope I didn't just hammer him" as what you're saying here; I took it as you not knowing the vote count and realizing that you may have just hammered. Whether it was true or fake remains to be seen.

Again, doing flaming huge red text for a quick hammer in this group is practically encouraged. It's the easiest situation imaginable for scum to hop on and fake it, and I feel like I should continue to find it suspicious.

That just sounds like confirmation bias, sorry. Do you really think a serious post would be made with dancing letters, a .jpg of Soulja Boy saying 'TURN MY SWAG ON' and me dropping my normal way of typing? Like, seriously think about it for a sec. Genuinely search deep

 

[Lore]

That just sounds like confirmation bias, sorry. Do you really think a serious post would be made with dancing letters, a .jpg of Soulja Boy saying 'TURN MY SWAG ON' and me dropping my normal way of typing? Like, seriously think about it for a sec. Genuinely search deep

Yes, a serious post masquerading as a non-serious one would do exactly that. Are you reading what I'm saying? You're arguing here as if I was saying the post was 100% serious in presentation, when the core of my argument is that scum could easily fake a serious quickhammer under the guise of being a nonserious "meme" quick hammer.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Yes, a serious post masquerading as a non-serious one would do exactly that. Are you reading what I'm saying? You're arguing here as if I was saying the post was 100% serious in presentation, when the core of my argument is that scum could easily fake a serious quickhammer under the guise of being a nonserious "meme" quick hammer.

...Can you prove that? Your only argument as to why it's true because of the amount of HBC players in this game, but that's uninformed, HBC is just a group of mafia friends at it's core, made out of pretenses of a joke. The whole joke is exactly the reason you're scumreading me! It was masquerading like you dont give a **** and ballin' the **** out cause that **** is funny as hell

I think that's the reason I doubt your suspicion on me, and why your argument is weak. The basis of you scumreading me is the fact I did a prank that you didn't happen to like.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I know what I said earlier about Lore v Spak, seemed TvT. However, I also recall reading early Spak interactions and thinking it reminded me of doop (with some of doops first posts being negative). I might could find myself voting for Spak.

unvote, Vote: FrozenFlame for now

I was with you on Lore v Spak being TvT but it'd take a lot of suspension of disbelief with some of the things Lore is doing. I haven't looked into Gorf's argument entirely about Spak but what do you think about it?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

besides that, on lore/spak - lynch em both

Not quite sure what to say about Spak. Nothing quite jumps out right now as awful, but level of activity is okay and I expect my read to go stronger so they aren't Can Go and aren't Needs More

I don't understand what changed here. You wanted to lynch Lore and Spak, but now Spak is fine?

 

[Lore]

...Can you prove that? Your only argument as to why it's true because of the amount of HBC players in this game, but that's uninformed, HBC is just a group of mafia friends at it's core, made out of pretenses of a joke. The whole joke is exactly the reason you're scumreading me! It was masquerading like you dont give a **** and ballin' the **** out cause that **** is funny as hell

I think that's the reason I doubt your suspicion on me, and why your argument is weak. The basis of you scumreading me is the fact I did a prank that you didn't happen to like.

That's... literally what I'm saying. HBC at it's core is based around a joke about hard bodying. Then when you have a game like this with a large amount of HBC or HBC-friends, you can masquerade a scummy quickhammer as a joke quickhammer and potentially get away with it.

You're not addressing any of what I'm saying; instead you're misrepresenting my arguments completely. I want to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just misreading, but that's getting harder and harder.

Especially with this part that you said earlier:

HAMMAH is something that has been said in the past before regardless of where the wagon was at, and me saying 'oh **** I hope I hope I didn't just hammer him' was me furthering the joke made in the previous post.

To be blunt, I think you're lying here. You didn't read as someone who was just "joking" about having missed the vote count. Whether you're retroactively covering up your mistake or you're scum being inconsistent, I believe that you are lying here.


#HBC | Kary Solid catch on Tom. I'm now interested in hearing his answer too.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

That's... literally what I'm saying. HBC at it's core is based around a joke about hard bodying. Then when you have a game like this with a large amount of HBC or HBC-friends, you can masquerade a scummy quickhammer as a joke quickhammer and potentially get away with it.

You're not addressing any of what I'm saying; instead you're misrepresenting my arguments completely. I want to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just misreading, but that's getting harder and harder.

Especially with this part that you said earlier:



To be blunt, I think you're lying here. You didn't read as someone who was just "joking" about having missed the vote count. Whether you're retroactively covering up your mistake or you're scum being inconsistent, I believe that you are lying here.


#HBC | Kary Solid catch on Tom. I'm now interested in hearing his answer too.

What you're saying cannot be proved. Did you miss that part? You've created an argument that doesn't exist. I don't know why, but it seems like anyone who goes against you or counteracts any thought you're taking is either reaching, wrong, or simply misconstruing you. Understand my perspective here that if you're town and you're lynched because you're unable to drop your defenses and have a conversation with someone, let alone maybe admit that you're being guarded, this is gonna be a really hard game to navigate. Why do you always assume that people have their worst interests at hand, especially when it comes to how do I say, defying you?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Well, I can decisively say that both Soup and Lore are in this game.

 

[Lore]

What you're saying cannot be proved. Did you miss that part? You've created an argument that doesn't exist. I don't know why, but it seems like anyone who goes against you or counteracts any thought you're taking is either reaching, wrong, or simply misconstruing you. Understand my perspective here that if you're town and you're lynched because you're unable to drop your defenses and have a conversation with someone, let alone maybe admit that you're being guarded, this is gonna be a really hard game to navigate. Why do you always assume that people have their worst interests at hand, especially when it comes to how do I say, defying you?

If you're asking me to literally have definitive, cop-guilty level proof when I find something suspicious, that's ridiculous. (I'm exaggerating for dramatic effect, re: cop-guilty portion)

As for the "everyone is reaching/wrong" bit, isn't that part of defending myself and answering questions? I've had multiple conversations (including one from barely a few posts ago with Pythag) which ended with me going "I think you're wrong but you do you." I explain my reasoning for what I did, clear any legitimate misunderstandings, and call out when someone is making a reaching point.

If anything, you're the one not having an actual conversation here. Between the condescension, swearing, and pretty clear non-understanding of my posts, I'm biting my tongue pretty hard here. I'm trying to do better about not getting riled up in games.

Like jfc, now you're saying that I'm being guarded and not open when I've been the exact opposite the entire game. I don't understand your motive here as town!Soup, only scum!Soup.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

If you're asking me to literally have definitive, cop-guilty level proof when I find something suspicious, that's ridiculous. (I'm exaggerating for dramatic effect, re: cop-guilty portion)

As for the "everyone is reaching/wrong" bit, isn't that part of defending myself and answering questions? I've had multiple conversations (including one from barely a few posts ago with Pythag) which ended with me going "I think you're wrong but you do you." I explain my reasoning for what I did, clear any legitimate misunderstandings, and call out when someone is making a reaching point.

If anything, you're the one not having an actual conversation here. Between the condescension, swearing, and pretty clear non-understanding of my posts, I'm biting my tongue pretty hard here. I'm trying to do better about not getting riled up in games.

Like jfc, now you're saying that I'm being guarded and not open when I've been the exact opposite the entire game. I don't understand your motive here as town!Soup, only scum!Soup.

How is it ridiculous? Mafia is a heightened form of debate, and if you're gonna present an argument it better be good. How would you feel if someone accused you (as town) for something that could not be refuted? Scum want to create arguments that are convenient, and it's very convenient of you to assume worse case scenario not just me, but with everyone.

You're just proving my point lol. You assume the worse case scenario, and I'm not sure why. I'm not trying to be condescending, and what does it matter if I ****ing swear? Swearing is great, lets out a lot of tension. Non-understanding of your posts is just...lol. You said the same thing with Spak, close to the same thing with marshy, the cycle continues. Why is everyone wrong and why are you just justifiably right?

 

[Tom]

Apparently my job has added smashboards to a filter list and I'm going to be playing from mobile.

At least Lore will get his capital letters

 

[Tom]

I want to know how Gorf got into this pile, please.

Honestly I'm not sure. Maybe I should reread.

I don't understand what changed here. You wanted to lynch Lore and Spak, but now Spak is fine?

Initially I was signaling my willingness to let them all go. Upon reading and rereading, prompted by Fandangox questioning me, I decided I didnt feel that bad about Spak by the time I was making my list.

 

[Lore]

How is it ridiculous? Mafia is a heightened form of debate, and if you're gonna present an argument it better be good. How would you feel if someone accused you (as town) for something that could not be refuted? Scum want to create arguments that are convenient, and it's very convenient of you to assume worse case scenario not just me, but with everyone.

You're just proving my point lol. You assume the worse case scenario, and I'm not sure why. I'm not trying to be condescending, and what does it matter if I ****ing swear? Swearing is great, lets out a lot of tension. Non-understanding of your posts is just...lol. You said the same thing with Spak, close to the same thing with marshy, the cycle continues. Why is everyone wrong and why are you just justifiably right?

If your argument is just "you're assuming worst case scenario" instead of "it's impossible," then I don't really have much to say in response. That's not a refutation of my argument at all. We're hitting a point where we are just repeating ourselves, and this "proof" you're asking for is literally impossible in this game. I can have suspicion, and I can have further suspicion as time goes on and your arguments worsen. That's how this game works; you rarely have "proof."

And nah not everyone is wrong. But you definitely are. I've brought this up repeatedly, shown where you are- at best- misreading my arguments, and you instead double down and now accuse me of saying everyone is always wrong. Or that I'm seeing myself as always right.

If I'm always right, why have I corrected myself multiple times after my questions were answered, saying that I was wrong in my initial reading and understanding? I don't understand you here.

Apparently my job has added smashboards to a filter list and I'm going to be playing from mobile.

At least Lore will get his capital letters

Nah not too worried about capitals, it's just that Gorf's huge text block posts were a bit difficult to read thanks to the lack. He's spacing it out more now, and you've always done that spacing. So it's all good.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

If your argument is just "you're assuming worst case scenario" instead of "it's impossible," then I don't really have much to say in response. That's not a refutation of my argument at all. We're hitting a point where we are just repeating ourselves, and this "proof" you're asking for is literally impossible in this game. I can have suspicion, and I can have further suspicion as time goes on and your arguments worsen. That's how this game works; you rarely have "proof."

And nah not everyone is wrong. But you definitely are. I've brought this up repeatedly, shown where you are- at best- misreading my arguments, and you instead double down and now accuse me of saying everyone is always wrong. Or that I'm seeing myself as always right.

If I'm always right, why have I corrected myself multiple times after my questions were answered, saying that I was wrong in my initial reading and understanding? I don't understand you here.

You. Don't. Have. An. Argument.

That is my response to you. You have nothing. You can continue to beat me over the head and say 'haha I knew it! I knew you were lying!' but it doesn't change anything. That's just wrong though, proof is something believable, you make up the evidence as you go.

Other bolded, a case in point of how many times you have denied an accusation, or said someone is reaching. You are the very definition of guarded.

I'll also throw in some comments from you trying to deflect -

To Spak:

feels immensely like projection. You're trying way too hard here.

Lastly, the Ryker bit. You're reaching hard on that point.

Your reasoning on Spak once questioned:

I'm still iffy on Spak's slot since it was super reachy,

To Marshy:

Come on. This is a hard reach.

Excuses for your own play as a defense, making roundabout excuses for yourself -

To Marshy:

I literally claimed day cop with a guilty a few games ago to do something similar, and I was town; this is just how I roll.

To Pythag:

please don't take my "my playstyle is to not self-preserve vote" as a defense, take it more as an explanation. I would do the same as town or scum.

To KevinM:

For my last few games, I've been read as scum pretty quickly. This is as town or scum, not just one alignment. More often than not I'm able to continue and not get lynched as people read more of my content, but the fact that it's a trend (and with both alignments) means that it's playstyle causing issues.

I think the biggest thing that trips me up is that there's another thing you do with arguments is that you duck out and take the easiest approach out. If you look at your conversations with Kevin, Pythag, Spak and even Marshy, you eventually fold and pretty much say the equilvalent of 'oh yeah sorry I guess I was wrong.' It doesn't make sense from a town perspective to shade someone and then try to be their friend afterwards. I think the only reason you're hard on me and not backing out is because it's a last ditch effort.

Balls in your court, homie.

Vote: Lore

 

[Lore]

... If you're going to list in detail the times I did it then summarize the times I DIDN'T do it as "town shouldn't admit they're wrong," you're either scum, tilted town, or dumb town. That's a horrific strawman from you.

 

[Lore]

And if you're already typing "I never said town shouldn't admit they're wrong," you know what I ****ing meant.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Theres nothing more to say tbh, I should've just left you alone but I wanted to try to reason with you. Any further bickering is just going to clutter the thread

As for town admitting they're wrong? Definitely not what I was saying, moreso town shouldnt try to paint someone as example given "reaching" then back off once they snap back at you. It's like, if your intent was to pressure someone, why give yourself away so easily? I think you're more afraid of upsetting someone.

 

[Lore]

As for town admitting they're wrong? Definitely not what I was saying, moreso town shouldnt try to paint someone as example given "reaching" then back off once they snap back at you. It's like, if your intent was to pressure someone, why give yourself away so easily? I think you're more afraid of upsetting someone.

Or I was straight up wrong in the first place, in which case I figured it out and backed off? Come on.

Agreed on the bickering, especially if it leads to more ridiculous strawmen like your giant post.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

wow lore and soup really ARE in this gake

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

>soup lambasts ranmaru for being vague and cites his willingness to shoot the **** with him as a reason to get him interacting
>gorf openly asks soup a question that can open the door to shooting the **** with somebody who has spent most of the game being aloof
>soup decides to forego this and go on to create a page that is guaranteed to be mostly skimmed or scrolled past by everybody playing

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Yep. Good to be back amirite?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i dont understand why of all people youre choosing to poke at ranmaru here. 1 how deep did you expect his reads to be four pages into the game? 2 the only thing i notice that hes really changing so far is not flooding the thread with things i scroll past, and lore seems plenty willing to take that mantle on. 3 this exchange is <24 hrs into Day say start, whats got you so intrigued to egg him on at this juncture

I didn't think this post was that important of you but maybe I can be a bit selfish or misguided at times. When it comes to Ran, it was ascribed by what I said where I don't want his playstyle to become an excuse, so I was hoping he would realize the error of his ways sooner rather than later. This didn't work however, and it seems like he's committed to sticking to this new Ran style that gonna be a pain in the ass

 

[Pythag]

I was with you on Lore v Spak being TvT but it'd take a lot of suspension of disbelief with some of the things Lore is doing. I haven't looked into Gorf's argument entirely about Spak but what do you think about it?

On mobile :

Well, it was mainly that as I was reading I was like “man, does every game start with mafia being negative?”

Doors first post was being negative towards Marshy

Marshy later called JTB scum because of everything JtB said was negative, and that’s Indicative of scum.

Still chewing on that as being a scum tell or not.
But I did see / feel similarities in Spak’s play.

Just like the direction Gord’s At. I’ll try to write more in a bit

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Marshy later called JTB scum because of everything JtB said was negative, and that’s Indicative of scum.

I dunno, I think negativity varies. It depends where it's pointed at but you have to consider that most people who write accusations on people or even throw votes around will be percieved as negative from the person receiving it. Do you think I'm being too hard on Lore based on your initial impression of TvT? You don't need to read our whole argument, just try to give me an impression of his behavior.

 

[ranmaru]

Soup, my play style right now won't be an excuse, and I quite like it, and it has a purpose. Tell me, why default to #174 over me and Kary suspecting you for one post? Why did it tilt you? Lore's #227 was grimy. I like the Lore wagon better than Soup now. Now, Marshy explained to you that I'll be easy to read by the end of the day here: #254. Do you disagree? You said you understand why I am trying to do this. So you shouldn't have a problem at this point in time.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Soup, my play style right now won't be an excuse, and I quite like it, and it has a purpose. Tell me, why default to #174 over me and Kary suspecting you for one post? Why did it tilt you? Lore's #227 was grimy. I like the Lore wagon better than Soup now. Now, Marshy explained to you that I'll be easy to read by the end of the day here: #254. Do you disagree? You said you understand why I am trying to do this. So you shouldn't have a problem at this point in time.

Let me take a raincheck on this for now. I'm annoying myself from how much I'm posting and I think part of it is just excitement to be playing with y'all and feeling like I need to explain myself far too often.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I didn't think this post was that important of you but maybe I can be a bit selfish or misguided at times. When it comes to Ran, it was ascribed by what I said where I don't want his playstyle to become an excuse, so I was hoping he would realize the error of his ways sooner rather than later. This didn't work however, and it seems like he's committed to sticking to this new Ran style that gonna be a pain in the ***

its not that its this super important thing to me. its just interesting that, in spite of me directly addressing something that you seem to have serious interest in, you choose to not engage with it and instead focus on things that youve been commenting on for a majority of the thread (that you yourself claim to hate dredging on about)

this isnt a totally unfair answer to my point #3 but at the same time, some of the things you say dont seem like theyre this altruistic attempt at rectifying the errors of ranmaru's ways here (e.g calling his reasons for his reads shallow, framing it as him possibly using this as an excuse for if hes scum). but maybe thats just me

i still want to know what sort of depth you expected out of his reads at that point in time (pg 4), and what specifically you think about his play is lacking. i mean, if you thought it was scummy i assume youd have said something about it by now so im sure thats not the case. instead you brought it up and... just didnt do anything about it and continued on participating in things you yourself claim not to like participating in

 

[Pythag]

I dunno, I think negativity varies. It depends where it's pointed at but you have to consider that most people who write accusations on people or even throw votes around will be percieved as negative from the person receiving it. Do you think I'm being too hard on Lore based on your initial impression of TvT? You don't need to read our whole argument, just try to give me an impression of his behavior.

I get both of y'alls frustration, but this is what it looks like to me :

10Lore : I found this scummy
20Soup : It was a joke
30Lore : You can't prove that
40Soup : You can't prove that
Goto 30



I'm not familiar with how you play, but Gorf and Ryker's post make it seem like Lore and you are pretty much behaving as normal. I would say that Lore's play looks similar. I'm kind of put in a position to have to trust other members of the HBC with regard to you, and no one else seems to be alarmed. Either they're all scum or this is par for the course.

Not being familiar with your sense of humour, I can see where Lore is coming from. There's an aspect about your vote on Ryker that isn't adding up, even as a joke, but I'm not necessarily wanting to beat a dead horse, or further push frustrating in that regard.

 

[KevinM]

KevinM

Lol, you keep saying I'm weirding you out or whatever but I ain't got a clue where to start. Maybe its my own pride but being lynched or accused for ******* (or unknown) reasons really irk me. I wanna think I'm a good townie, able to articulate myself and get ppl to see my perspective. I dont care if you dont drop a paragraph about it but I'm just like ????

I just don't like your mishammer play and playing it off as a joke doesn't seem genuine because even if it was a joke you dropped someone to L-1 and then played it off as not knowing the vote count.

Especially someone like Ryker where if he's town we stand to lose a lot more by a mislynch HBC or not.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

votecount

KevinM (1): Spak
Ryker (1): FrozenFlame
Soup (4): Kary, Kevin, Lore, Ryker
Lore (5): Ranmaru, Marshy, Fandangox, Tom, soup
Spak (1): Gorf
FrozenFlame (1): Pythag

Not Voting(0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

 

[Fandangox]

I think it's aight to answer this now, since the Soup wagon has more solid ground than before imo.

I strongly suspected that Kary and Ryker both had mostly light reasons for voting Soup, but instead they put down firm votes to both apply pressure and get more out of Soup. Ryker's post about how "early game votes don't really need reasons" (paraphrased) made me realize this; I assumed his post was a roundabout way of smacking me on the back of the head to realize what he and Kary were doing.

Saying this earlier would have deflated the pressure and gotten less out of Soup, especially since I didn't realize the issue with the hammer earlier. I also didn't have much reason to hop on, with Kary and Ryker already applying plenty of pressure. Once I realized the hammer issues (as I laid out earlier), I got on the wagon. I feel like enough reasons have been laid out by multiple players to make this post safe to say now.

If I misread the situation from Kary and Ryker then so be it, but that was my view at the time and still is my view.

I don't think that's true, saying that earlier would have just been your interpretation of it, and not necessarily make Soup believe the pressure was genuine or not.

 

[Fandangox]

I disagree lol

Give me a read list Soup

 

[Fandangox]

Re: My FF vote
While people have posted things I don't like, FF has a total of 1 post. Right now I think I don't like that even more.

Voting an inactive d1 while this is going on is weak, if you are so concerned you can prod them. Why not pursue the other venues you allegedly not like, wouldn't you and the town get more out of that?

 

[Lore]

votecount

KevinM (1): Spak
Ryker (1): FrozenFlame
Soup (4): Kary, Kevin, Lore, Ryker
Lore (5): Ranmaru, Marshy, Fandangox, Tom, soup
Spak (1): Gorf
FrozenFlame (1): Pythag

Not Voting(0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Mod do you mind prodding #HBC | FrozeηFlame ? Thx for that and the vote count.

(jk but FF needs to get his ass in here)

I don't think that's true, saying that earlier would have just been your interpretation of it, and not necessarily make Soup believe the pressure was genuine or not.

Fair, in hindsight it would have been fine. Or there's also the fact that Ryker or Kary would call me out on my reasoning "not being the case" if Soup did start feeling less pressure.

 

[Lore]

Soup, my play style right now won't be an excuse, and I quite like it, and it has a purpose.

Ran, come on man. Being this inactive is just weird. I genuinely enjoyed discussing things with you last game.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Let's just lynch soup, and if he flips town lynch Lore. if he flips scum I can put Lore on ignore. Basically its a win either way.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

I guess I see it different. Lore V Spak looked like it was resolved at least kinda between the two of them. Struck me as two earnest people, so I guess I didn't see there being much to discuss there.

Lore asking questions though, I mean, I see that as generating conversation. I guess I see it as it happening quicker, but not...inorganic? idk. Or is this conversation more about meta and RVS rather than scum hunting. I guess I see more conversation about different topics or more concrete things can create more situations for scum to slip/

too complex

letting the game progress organically just means ppl dropping votes, wagoning, crafting arguments, etc. i dont mean lore any offense here cuz hes said this is his first time doing it but i love ppl trying to engage multiple ppl with questions when im scum. its easy and gives a simple roadmap to navigate my way thru the day by looking like im contributing when really im just saying what i kno ppl want to hear. it can help create a gamestate where too many townies are engaging in reaction instead of dynamism; id take this lore vs soup wagons over forced questions any day

but i want to ask you something. when lore and spak were going at each other earlier you wrote it off as prolly town vs town. gorfs case appealed to you and youre saying youd consider a spak vote. can you please break this progression down for me like what was going thru your mind during their conversation? and what specifically youve seen further down the road that has you reconsidering?

also how do you feel about gorf? drugs may or may not b a part of your answer

 

[Spak]

OK guys, I'm back. Sorry for being so late, but I'm paid by the hour and had to make up some time for being out yesterday lol. I'll read up now.

Also, we'll be using the OrangeXHtml account short-term while we try to get a mod to confirm our Hydra (so @HBC | soup don't log in to post at all; it's the account you gave me for Masquerade Mafia a few years back lol). So this'll be the last time that I'll post using my main account until endgame.

Pinging giraffelasergun to let him know that I'm swapping over to the hydra beyond this post.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Spak uhhh you can probably just change the password?

 

[OrangeXhtml]

Spak uhhh you can probably just change the password?

Just changed it!