Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Nerdicon · Mar 7, 2015

Munomario777 said:
As has been pointed out before, Link's loss didn't really have too much of an impact in the grand scheme of things, since he would have lost to Sonic anyways. Why do you think we should revisit Rosalina's matchups?

Nerdicon said:
Basically, Rosalina can only be harmed at the very beginning of the match and by anything that would reasonably pierce the shield. (Light and Sound really). Light would pierce the shield just because the shield is transparent and therefore any electromagnetic wave should technically be able to pierce the shield (Samus' Wave Beam, Laser Ability, Laser Staff, etc). If you disagree I feel this conforms to the unsaid hierarchy of discussion (in-game lore >/= gameplay > alternate canon > real world logic) given that there is no in-game evidence to disprove my claim, I feel real-world logic should be used.

Which you agreed with, so most of her matches deserve serious reevaluation

Crystanium · Mar 7, 2015

@

Munomario777

I'm going to be straight to the point because I don't think it's fair that Samus wasn't given a defense, but was instead pitted against Ganondorf and it was called a day.

Fact: The only durability feats (to the best of my knowledge) are as follows:

Invulnerable to Tetra's dagger
Invulnerable to Valoo's flame.
Invulnerable to a castle collapsing on him in both OoT and TP.
Invulnerable to the Master Sword itself when it's not enchanted.

Claims in the lore

"The only weapon potent enough to defeat the wizard is the legendary Master Sword." - Loyal Sage, A Link to the Past.

"It is none other than the Master Sword . . . The blade of evil's bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!" - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

"You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not spark with the power to repel evil! What you hold is useless. Go back to the world below, and tell that to the pathetic fools who made this blade! Its power is gone, and its edges are dull!" - Ganon, The Wind Waker

"You cannot defeat Ganon until the power to repel evil has been returned to the Master Sword." - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

These are the only claims I could find. They're just claims, nothing more. I will present a simple argument.

P1: If the Master Sword is the only weapon capable of defeating Ganondorf, then no other weapon can harm Ganondorf.
P2: Ganondorf can be harmed by other weapons, such as the Magic Sword and silver arrows.
C: Therefore, the Master Sword isn't the only weapon that can defeat Ganondorf.

Simply put, these claims are false by their own lore. I've pointed out the ignorance of these characters before. If anyone wishes to say something along the lines of, "The Magic Sword and silver arrows can harm Ganondorf because they have the power to repel evil", you're missing the point.

Ganondorf's invulnerability can be pierced

"And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses . . . The power given to the chosen ones . . . The sacred Arrow of Light!!!" - Zelda, Ocarina of Time

"You got the Light Arrow! When you take out your bow, use [R] to change arrowheads, then fire away. The sacred light of these arrows can pierce pure evil itself!" - N/A, The Wind Waker

If Ganondorf's defenses can be pierced, then why can't two piercing weapons in Samus' arsenal (the wave and plasma beam) pierce through Ganondorf's defenses? If "the power to repel evil" is necessary, I've already demonstrated that the lore contradicts itself.

"Ganondorf, Base of Operations: Ganon's Castle
"Effective Weapons: Light Arrows, Master Sword" - N/A, The Wind Waker

At least we know what's effective. In fact, it's interesting that the light arrows are just as effective as the Master Sword. Words synonymous with "effective" are "potent" and "powerful". I know that Samus' beam weapons are effective in dispatching non-human organisms. I don't see why this cannot be applied to Ganondorf.

Munomario777 · Mar 7, 2015

Nerdicon said:
Which you agreed with, so most of her matches deserve serious reevaluation

While some characters do have light or sound based attacks, I don't think that really changes the conclusion since she would have black hole'd them to their doom before said attacks would defeat her.

Dryn said:
@ Munomario777

I'm going to be straight to the point because I don't think it's fair that Samus wasn't given a defense, but was instead pitted against Ganondorf and it was called a day.

It wasn't really necessary, seeing as how Samus doesn't really have an offense to use against Ganondorf, and it's only a matter of time before Ganondorf defeats Samus.

Fact:

Click to expand...

The only durability feats (to the best of my knowledge) are as follows:

Invulnerable to Tetra's dagger

Invulnerable to Valoo's flame.

Invulnerable to a castle collapsing on him in both OoT and TP.

Invulnerable to the Master Sword itself when it's not enchanted.

I'm sure there are some other examples of this, but those are definitely some good examples. By the way, the fact that even the Master Sword itself cannot defeat Ganon without its magical power supports godly power being the only way to defeat him.

Claims in the lore

"The only weapon potent enough to defeat the wizard is the legendary Master Sword." - Loyal Sage, A Link to the Past.

"It is none other than the Master Sword . . . The blade of evil's bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!" - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

"You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not spark with the power to repel evil! What you hold is useless. Go back to the world below, and tell that to the pathetic fools who made this blade! Its power is gone, and its edges are dull!" - Ganon, The Wind Waker

"You cannot defeat Ganon until the power to repel evil has been returned to the Master Sword." - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

These are the only claims I could find. They're just claims, nothing more. I will present a simple argument.

Not unlike your *claim* to the contrary. Anyway, the people stating these claims can be described as follows:

Someone extremely loyal to the royal family, which possesses some great knowledge about Ganon, possesses magical powers, and is descended from the goddess Hylia (in other words, the Royal Family has a direct link to the divine world and its knowledge).
The king of said Family (and apparently red lions), who is directly descended from that same goddess and clearly possesses magical powers (boat transformation anyone?).
Ganon himself, who I assume would know what can and cannot kill him
The King of Red Lions again.

These aren't any ordinary people making these claims; they're people who have Links (:L) to the divine world and its great knowledge. Thus, they should be taken with great respect.

P1: If the Master Sword is the only weapon capable of defeating Ganondorf, then no other weapon can harm Ganondorf.
P2: Ganondorf can be harmed by other weapons, such as the Magic Sword and silver arrows.
C: Therefore, the Master Sword isn't the only weapon that can defeat Ganondorf.

Lore > gameplay. That and silver bullets are traditionally the one weapon that can defeat evil monsters and such (such as werewolves), so it makes sense that Ganon would be vulnerable to this sort of thing as well.

Simply put, these claims are false by their own lore. I've pointed out the ignorance of these characters before. If anyone wishes to say something along the lines of, "The Magic Sword and silver arrows can harm Ganondorf because they have the power to repel evil", you're missing the point.

Ganondorf's invulnerability can be pierced

"And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses . . . The power given to the chosen ones . . . The sacred Arrow of Light!!!" - Zelda, Ocarina of Time

"You got the Light Arrow! When you take out your bow, use [R] to change arrowheads, then fire away. The sacred light of these arrows can pierce pure evil itself!" - N/A, The Wind Waker

If Ganondorf's defenses can be pierced, then why can't two piercing weapons in Samus' arsenal (the wave and plasma beam) pierce through Ganondorf's defenses? If "the power to repel evil" is necessary, I've already demonstrated that the lore contradicts itself.

What it means is that it stuns Ganondorf so that Link can come in with the Master Sword for the final blow. Going through (AKA piercing) something doesn't necessarily mean damaging that thing; light going through glass doesn't damage the glass. In fact, the Light Arrows are light, so Ganon is the "glass", as it were. Anyway, as shown in-game, the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf, and don't actually damage him.

"Ganondorf, Base of Operations: Ganon's Castle

"Effective Weapons: Light Arrows, Master Sword" - N/A, The Wind Waker

At least we know what's effective. In fact, it's interesting that the light arrows are just as effective as the Master Sword. Words synonymous with "effective" are "potent" and "powerful". I know that Samus' beam weapons are effective in dispatching non-human organisms. I don't see why this cannot be applied to Ganondorf.

Via Google Search, "effective" means "successful in producing a desired or intended result." Thus, since nothing else is listed on that bio page (which is lore, not a claim, since it's not spoken by an actual character), then nothing else is effective against Ganon, which means that nothing else is successful in damaging him. Just because they're both described by the word "effective" doesn't mean they have the same effect; a planet is bigger than a jumbo jet, but both can be described as "big".

Diddy Kong · Mar 7, 2015

I think Ike could beat Ganondorf.

Munomario777 · Mar 7, 2015

Diddy Kong said:
I think Ike could beat Ganondorf.

He definitely has the right weapon for the job, since Ragnell is blessed by the gods. However, I'm not sure that the rest of him quite holds up. He is rather slow, after all, and I don't think that Ganondorf would have a hard time finishing him off before he could land the final blow.

Diddy Kong · Mar 7, 2015

Munomario777 said:
He definitely has the right weapon for the job, since Ragnell is blessed by the gods. However, I'm not sure that the rest of him quite holds up. He is rather slow, after all, and I don't think that Ganondorf would have a hard time finishing him off before he could land the final blow.

Rather slow? Man, this dude is swinging around that two-handed blade with just one arm and he's making insanely athletic moves with them. Aether also makes no joke, if he's able to land one on Ganondorf, he's in trouble. Ike's Ragnell can also attack from a range, and I doubt Ike wouldn't be able to get around his dark magic. Even though he'll take some great damage from that to...

Munomario777 · Mar 7, 2015

Diddy Kong said:
Rather slow? Man, this dude is swinging around that two-handed blade with just one arm and he's making insanely athletic moves with them. Aether also makes no joke, if he's able to land one on Ganondorf, he's in trouble. Ike's Ragnell can also attack from a range, and I doubt Ike wouldn't be able to get around his dark magic. Even though he'll take some great damage from that to...

It could go either way, but I think Ganon's dark magic, added range, and such gives him an advantage here, as Ike is mainly an up-close fighter (being a swordsman and all). By the ranged attack, do you mean Ragnell's shockwaves? Ganon could hover above those, as he has the ability to fly.

Diddy Kong · Mar 7, 2015

Ike is able to hit airbone enemies with those attacks as well, seeing as he can take out Dragon and Pegasus Knights with it for example. Magic in general is a weakness of Ike, but it's not like he can not get around it. If Ike is able to get up close, he'll be overpowering Ganondorf easily if it's sword vs sword. I think that if Ike where to use the Skill Resolve, he'd also have an easier time against Ganondorf, cause he'll take damage against him anyway, but with Resolve he'll be far more powerful.

Munomario777 · Mar 7, 2015

Diddy Kong said:
Ike is able to hit airbone enemies with those attacks as well, seeing as he can take out Dragon and Pegasus Knights with it for example. Magic in general is a weakness of Ike, but it's not like he can not get around it. If Ike is able to get up close, he'll be overpowering Ganondorf easily if it's sword vs sword. I think that if Ike where to use the Skill Resolve, he'd also have an easier time against Ganondorf, cause he'll take damage against him anyway, but with Resolve he'll be far more powerful.

Looking at images of Pegasus Knights from Fire Emblem, it seems like they're rather low to the ground:

...whereas Ganon typically hovers quite a bit higher up (it's not Ganon, but it's approximately the same height):

I don't think Ike would really get much of a chance to get up close with Ganon in the first place, since A) Ganon has superior ranged attacks to keep him at bay, B) Ike's giant sword would likely weigh him down a bit, and C) Ganon can teleport and fly to get far out of Ike's range.

Crystanium · Mar 7, 2015

Munomario777 said:
It wasn't really necessary, seeing as how Samus doesn't really have an offense to use against Ganondorf, and it's only a matter of time before Ganondorf defeats Samus.

To balance (or make it one-sided), we could just use the Metroid Prime 2: Echoes incarnation if you honestly think that.

Munomario777 said:
I'm sure there are some other examples of this, but those are definitely some good examples. By the way, the fact that even the Master Sword itself cannot defeat Ganon without its magical power supports godly power being the only way to defeat him.

All it means is that the Master Sword isn't effective against Ganondorf in this situation. Let's not be unreasonable here. Superman is invulnerable to most things, except Kryptonite. He's vulnerable even to magic or a lot of blunt force. I'm not denying Ganondorf's invulnerability, but what I am denying is that this invulnerability goes beyond what's been demonstrated. We work with what we've observed. Anything else is faith.

Munomario777 said:
Not unlike your *claim* to the contrary.

The burden of proof isn't on me. You're extrapolating again.

Munomario777 said:
Anyway, the people stating these claims can be described as follows:

Someone extremely loyal to the royal family, which possesses some great knowledge about Ganon, possesses magical powers, and is descended from the goddess Hylia (in other words, the Royal Family has a direct link to the divine world and its knowledge).

The king of said Family (and apparently red lions), who is directly descended from that same goddess and clearly possesses magical powers (boat transformation anyone?).

Ganon himself, who I assume would know what can and cannot kill him

The King of Red Lions again.

These aren't any ordinary people making these claims; they're people who have Links (:L) to the divine world and its great knowledge. Thus, they should be taken with great respect.

These individuals are continuing oral tradition. In Skyward Sword, Fi has to actually correct the oral tradition passed down on Skyloft, since it was missing details. Oral tradition even in real life degrades as time passes on. Since it seems a Gerudo male is born every one-hundred years and his heart grows darker at every passing year, it would seem to me that these people have at least several centuries of history. All they can work with is folklore.

Another problem is anecdotal evidence and ipse dixitism. These people I've listed would not know the validity of what they claim. They rely on what others said and take it prima facie, which even you're doing. Ganondorf himself can only make claims about what he's been capable of withstanding. Since this is the same Ganondorf who was sealed away in OoT, he can only claim that a castle collapsing on him is ineffective. After all, it isn't until after that Valoo hits him with a flame. I wonder why Valoo attacked Ganondorf, unless he didn't know Ganondorf couldn't be harmed.

Munomario777 said:
Lore > gameplay. That and silver bullets are traditionally the one weapon that can defeat evil monsters and such (such as werewolves), so it makes sense that Ganon would be vulnerable to this sort of thing as well.

Game play is lore. You cannot bifurcate one from the other, unless one contradicts the other. For example, in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, a single, uncharged power beam easily dispatches Pirate Troopers, yet in-game, it takes two, fully charged power beams. Considering there is nothing to contradict the Magic Sword's and silver arrows' effectiveness, it still stands that the claimants are speaking in ignorance.

Munomario777 said:
What it means is that it stuns Ganondorf so that Link can come in with the Master Sword for the final blow. Going through (AKA piercing) something doesn't necessarily mean damaging that thing; light going through glass doesn't damage the glass. In fact, the Light Arrows are light, so Ganon is the "glass", as it were. Anyway, as shown in-game, the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf, and don't actually damage him.

It means that it creates an opening, leaving Ganondorf exposed. Without a lead shield, one is exposed to x-rays. The wave beam and plasma beam possess properties capable of passing through solid objects, opaque or otherwise. Why is this not effective against Ganondorf?

Munomario777 said:
Via Google Search, "effective" means "successful in producing a desired or intended result." Thus, since nothing else is listed on that bio page (which is lore, not a claim, since it's not spoken by an actual character), then nothing else is effective against Ganon, which means that nothing else is successful in damaging him. Just because they're both described by the word "effective" doesn't mean they have the same effect; a planet is bigger than a jumbo jet, but both can be described as "big".

I prefer the Oxford English Dictionary. I'm fine with that definition, but my point is that these weapons are effective. It doesn't say these are the only weapons capable of defeating Ganondorf.

Nerdicon · Mar 7, 2015

Munomario777 said:
While some characters do have light or sound based attacks, I don't think that really changes the conclusion since she would have black hole'd them to their doom before said attacks would defeat her.

Actually with the transparency of the shield a lot of characters can defeat her
Pit with the Laser Staff (which has a max range of 120+ meters) can hit her twice easily. The charge shot is near instant from the weapon to max range, and it pierces enemies so the Lumas couldn't save her
Palutena's Mega Laser or Heavenly Light are multi-hits that would kill Rosalina almost instantly, way before she could even react. Again pierces enemies so Lumas are useless
Samus has the wave beam which in just two shots would finish Rosalina off.
I'm sure Robin gets light magic, but I doubt he could get close enough to do any real damage.
Kabuki Kirby, Laser Kirby, Baton Kirby, and debatably Spark Kirby all have attacks that would go through Rosalina's shield. Kabuki Kirby (because hierarchy of discussion) has a piercing near instant beam too, so no Lumas will help.
Mega Man has several attacks that would pierce the shield such as the Gemini Laser. He could just use the time stopper to get close and then blast her face when he is close.
etc.
Rosalina would have a small yet noticeable delay as she has to shoot the star bits into the Lumas mouth's giving her a large window (relatively of course, it's really a little less than a second) of vulnerability before she can create another black hole. And this delay is present whenever she creates something with the Lumas. While a little less than a second may not sound like a lot, that's more than enough time for some of these characters to get two hits in.

Munomario777 · Mar 7, 2015

Dryn said:
To balance (or make it one-sided), we could just use the Metroid Prime 2: Echoes incarnation if you honestly think that.

I don't see why we're doing incarnations for characters other than the Zelda characters in the first place (it's the same Samus, but not the same Link from game to game), but I'm fine with that.

All it means is that the Master Sword isn't effective against Ganondorf in this situation. Let's not be unreasonable here. Superman is invulnerable to most things, except Kryptonite. He's vulnerable even to magic or a lot of blunt force. I'm not denying Ganondorf's invulnerability, but what I am denying is that this invulnerability goes beyond what's been demonstrated. We work with what we've observed. Anything else is faith.

We work with what we've observed. I've observed respectable characters, gameplay, and the game's lore itself showing that Ganon can only be harmed by holy weapons such as the Master Sword. Anything else (i.e. Samus's beams damaging Ganondorf) is faith.

The burden of proof isn't on me. You're extrapolating again.

No, it's on you. Again, as @ShadowLBlue so eloquently put it:

ShadowLBlue said:
I agree with munomario777 here. If a game shows/states something as canon or lore, it's on the person arguing against it to prove that said lore/information/gameplay is wrong or misleading.

I had the burden of proof, and I provided said proof. Now it's on you to provide proof that my proof is wrong, as well as provide proof that your side of the argument is right.

These individuals are continuing oral tradition. In Skyward Sword, Fi has to actually correct the oral tradition passed down on Skyloft, since it was missing details. Oral tradition even in real life degrades as time passes on. Since it seems a Gerudo male is born every one-hundred years and his heart grows darker at every passing year, it would seem to me that these people have at least several centuries of history. All they can work with is folklore.

You're forgetting the fact that the Royal Family is directly descended from the gods. Folklore gets twisted because the people who started it aren't alive anymore. The gods, on the other hand, are alive, and would thus correct the Royal Family if their claims were false.

Another problem is anecdotal evidence and ipse dixitism. These people I've listed would not know the validity of what they claim. They rely on what others said and take it prima facie, which even you're doing. Ganondorf himself can only make claims about what he's been capable of withstanding. Since this is the same Ganondorf who was sealed away in OoT, he can only claim that a castle collapsing on him is ineffective. After all, it isn't until after that Valoo hits him with a flame. I wonder why Valoo attacked Ganondorf, unless he didn't know Ganondorf couldn't be harmed.

Again, they're direct descendants of the gods; surely they would have some way of knowing if they're directly related to the gods of their world. As for why Valoo attacked Ganondorf, I think the goal may have been instead to destroy his base of operations, seeing as how it was made of wood.

Game play is lore. You cannot bifurcate one from the other, unless one contradicts the other. For example, in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, a single, uncharged power beam easily dispatches Pirate Troopers, yet in-game, it takes two, fully charged power beams. Considering there is nothing to contradict the Magic Sword's and silver arrows' effectiveness, it still stands that the claimants are speaking in ignorance.

By lore, I mean things that the game, higher-up characters in said game, etc. tell you, or the "word of god" of the game. I consider cutscenes sort of a part of gameplay, since it suffers some of the problems that regular gameplay does (i.e. not conveying extremely high speeds correctly); plus, many modern games sort of combine the two, with "controllable cutscenes" (Portal 2 comes to mind). This whole hierarchy deal is sort of meant for when there's a contradiction, since otherwise they either all agree or not all of them have a say on the matter.

It means that it creates an opening, leaving Ganondorf exposed. Without a lead shield, one is exposed to x-rays. The wave beam and plasma beam possess properties capable of passing through solid objects, opaque or otherwise. Why is this not effective against Ganondorf?

Again, does light create a hole through glass? No. A light-based weapon might be effective against Ganondorf, but would only be effective at stunning him at best, since that's how it works in-game.

I prefer the Oxford English Dictionary. I'm fine with that definition, but my point is that these weapons are effective. It doesn't say these are the only weapons capable of defeating Ganondorf.

If there were other weapons that were effective against Ganondorf, then they would be listed. There are no other weapons listed, so we shouldn't assume that other weapons are effective. Assuming that Samus's beams are effective because the list doesn't say "exclusively effective" is argument from ignorance.

Nerdicon said:
Actually with the transparency of the shield a lot of characters can defeat her
Pit with the Laser Staff (which has a max range of 120+ meters) can hit her twice easily. The charge shot is near instant from the weapon to max range, and it pierces enemies so the Lumas couldn't save her
Palutena's Mega Laser or Heavenly Light are multi-hits that would kill Rosalina almost instantly, way before she could even react. Again pierces enemies so Lumas are useless
Samus has the wave beam which in just two shots would finish Rosalina off.
I'm sure Robin gets light magic, but I doubt he could get close enough to do any real damage.
Kabuki Kirby, Laser Kirby, Baton Kirby, and debatably Spark Kirby all have attacks that would go through Rosalina's shield. Kabuki Kirby (because hierarchy of discussion) has a piercing near instant beam too, so no Lumas will help.
Mega Man has several attacks that would pierce the shield such as the Gemini Laser. He could just use the time stopper to get close and then blast her face when he is close.
etc.
Rosalina would have a small yet noticeable delay as she has to shoot the star bits into the Lumas mouth's giving her a large window (relatively of course, it's really a little less than a second) of vulnerability before she can create another black hole. And this delay is present whenever she creates something with the Lumas. While a little less than a second may not sound like a lot, that's more than enough time for some of these characters to get two hits in.

Fair enough, but there's not really a vulnerable period caused by the Star Bits, since as I said earlier, Mario (and by extension Rosalina) isn't hindered while shooting Star Bits. Once Rosalina gets one black hole up, she could simply use it as a shield to absorb any attacks, even light-based ones due to the nature of black holes. Also to add to your list, Sonic has the Laser Wisp, the Rhythm Wisp, etc. as well as the Arrow of Light to penetrate the shield.

Nerdicon · Mar 7, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Fair enough, but there's not really a vulnerable period caused by the Star Bits, since as I said earlier, Mario (and by extension Rosalina) isn't hindered while shooting Star Bits. Once Rosalina gets one black hole up, she could simply use it as a shield to absorb any attacks, even light-based ones due to the nature of black holes. Also to add to your list, Sonic has the Laser Wisp, the Rhythm Wisp, etc. as well as the Arrow of Light to penetrate the shield.

A moment of vulnerability because she hasn't actually attacked yet, not because she can't move while using star bits. Although most characters listed would be able to defeat Rosalina in just less than a second, since the black holes are so small they could just shoot around the black hole. The Arrow of Light wouldn't be effective because it's still a solid object imbued with light powers...and I totally forgot about the rhythm wisp.

Munomario777 · Mar 7, 2015

Nerdicon said:
A moment of vulnerability because she hasn't actually attacked yet, not because she can't move while using star bits. Although most characters listed would be able to defeat Rosalina in just less than a second, since the black holes are so small they could just shoot around the black hole. The Arrow of Light wouldn't be effective because it's still a solid object imbued with light powers...and I totally forgot about the rhythm wisp.

She could attack, dodge, fly, etc. to avoid attacks while she's shooting Star Bits, though. The black holes may be rather small, but Rosalina could create more very easily, or alternatively hide inside of it, essentially making it an enhanced version of her regular protective barrier. I'd imagine the blue light energy of the Arrow of Light would penetrate the shield if Sonic didn't. The Rhythm Wisp, while essentially useless in Lost World, has a rather interesting application here.

Also, just running allows Sonic to create a sonic boom, so there's that.

Crystanium · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
I don't see why we're doing incarnations for characters other than the Zelda characters in the first place (it's the same Samus, but not the same Link from game to game), but I'm fine with that.

Because most of the time, composite forms are non-canon.

Munomario777 said:
We work with what we've observed. I've observed respectable characters, gameplay, and the game's lore itself showing that Ganon can only be harmed by holy weapons such as the Master Sword. Anything else (i.e. Samus's beams damaging Ganondorf) is faith.

So, you've observed Ganondorf withstand directed-energy weapons and a nuclear explosion? Because if you haven't, then all you're doing is extrapolating. Extrapolation is a prediction outside the range of data. Here's the data you have: Ganondorf withstood a dagger, a sword, a flame, and a castle collapsing on him. You could even add his ability to survive Midna's attack as a flaming head. That's data. Anything beyond that is guessing.

Munomario777 said:
I had the burden of proof, and I provided said proof. Now it's on you to provide proof that my proof is wrong, as well as provide proof that your side of the argument is right.

You didn't provide proof. Let me put it this way. You have the Loyal Sage, Ganondorf, and the King of Red Lions all claiming that nothing can kill him except that which repels evil. Prove this.

Munomario777 said:
You're forgetting the fact that the Royal Family is directly descended from the gods. Folklore gets twisted because the people who started it aren't alive anymore. The gods, on the other hand, are alive, and would thus correct the Royal Family if their claims were false.

Hylians are direct descendants of the gods, but that doesn't mean anything. Link in Skyward Sword was the closest to the gods on Skyloft and he and the other fellow with him were missing information from the oral tradition. If this incarnation of Link, which is currently considered the first, lost translation of oral tradition, then how much more his descendants centuries later!

Munomario777 said:
Again, they're direct descendants of the gods; surely they would have some way of knowing if they're directly related to the gods of their world.

That's an assumption

Munomario777 said:
By lore, I mean things that the game, higher-up characters in said game, etc. tell you, or the "word of god" of the game. I consider cutscenes sort of a part of gameplay, since it suffers some of the problems that regular gameplay does (i.e. not conveying extremely high speeds correctly); plus, many modern games sort of combine the two, with "controllable cutscenes" (Portal 2 comes to mind). This whole hierarchy deal is sort of meant for when there's a contradiction, since otherwise they either all agree or not all of them have a say on the matter.

Well, to the best of my knowledge, I've already presented all of the characters who say that Ganondorf cannot be harmed by anything except that which repels evil. If you have anything from word of god, show it. The problem with word of god in this respect is he can only speak for his series, not anyone else's.

Munomario777 said:
Again, does light create a hole through glass? No. A light-based weapon might be effective against Ganondorf, but would only be effective at stunning him at best, since that's how it works in-game.

Light passes through glass because of its frequency isn't being absorbed. A laser, on the other hand, will pierce through a solid like a water balloon or a CD case, depending on its power. We can understand "pierce" and "penetrate" as exposing Ganondorf's vulnerability by disrupting his dark defense.

Munomario777 said:
If there were other weapons that were effective against Ganondorf, then they would be listed. There are no other weapons listed, so we shouldn't assume that other weapons are effective. Assuming that Samus's beams are effective because the list doesn't say "exclusively effective" is argument from ignorance.

Saying that no other weapon will harm Ganondorf is equally an argument from ignorance. You rely on ignorant claims (which are arguments of ignorance themselves) and extrapolation. You have not disproved these.

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

Dryn said:
Because most of the time, composite forms are non-canon.

How so? The Zelda series is a special case because it's usually a different incarnation of Link, Zelda, etc. in each game, but it's the same Samus that went through all of those adventures, from Super Metroid to Metroid Prime to Other M.

So, you've observed Ganondorf withstand directed-energy weapons and a nuclear explosion? Because if you haven't, then all you're doing is extrapolating. Extrapolation is a prediction outside the range of data. Here's the data you have: Ganondorf withstood a dagger, a sword, a flame, and a castle collapsing on him. You could even add his ability to survive Midna's attack as a flaming head. That's data. Anything beyond that is guessing.

So, you've observed Ganondorf get damaged by directed-energy weapons and a nuclear explosion? Because if you haven't, then all you're doing is extrapolating. Extrapolation is a prediction outside the range of data. Here's the data you have: Ganondorf is harmed by some weapons that have holy properties, as well as silver weapons, which are typical of killing dark monsters in media anyway. That's data. Anything beyond that is guessing.

You didn't provide proof. Let me put it this way. You have the Loyal Sage, Ganondorf, and the King of Red Lions all claiming that nothing can kill him except that which repels evil. Prove this.

Hylians are direct descendants of the gods, but that doesn't mean anything. Link in Skyward Sword was the closest to the gods on Skyloft and he and the other fellow with him were missing information from the oral tradition. If this incarnation of Link, which is currently considered the first, lost translation of oral tradition, then how much more his descendants centuries later!

The difference here is that Link isn't part of the Royal Family. Most Hylians don't have magical powers, but those in the Royal Family do, as demonstrated by Zelda; these include telepathy and prophetic dreams. Conveniently enough, these would also make it very easy for the goddess to convey information; telepathy is the ideal way of doing this. By "missing information", do you mean the original story not including the fact that Link is the chosen one? It's not lost meaning if it was never in the original story to begin with. The goddess simply chose not to disclose this information (or rather, tell Fi to disclose it) until it was ready to be disclosed.

That's an assumption

Not really; the goddess has telepathy, so she would probably correct one of her own direct descendants if they said something wrong; Fi did it with Link, after all, and that wasn't even contradicting anything, nor was he Fi's descendant!

Well, to the best of my knowledge, I've already presented all of the characters who say that Ganondorf cannot be harmed by anything except that which repels evil. If you have anything from word of god, show it. The problem with word of god in this respect is he can only speak for his series, not anyone else's.

M'kay, other than the Royal Family being directly descended from the goddess:

Dyrn said:
"Effective Weapons: Light Arrows, Master Sword" - N/A, The Wind Waker

This is the official list of things that can be used to harm Ganondorf. Anything else is extrapolation.
If the game itself doesn't hold authority in-game, I don't know what does.

Light passes through glass because of its frequency isn't being absorbed. A laser, on the other hand, will pierce through a solid like a water balloon or a CD case, depending on its power. We can understand "pierce" and "penetrate" as exposing Ganondorf's vulnerability by disrupting his dark defense.

True. Since this has different meanings depending on the context, we should look at gameplay and see which meaning it matches best. In-game, the Light Arrow doesn't make Ganondorf open to anything other than the Master Sword, instead stunning him to make him open to the Master Sword alone. Saying that Samus's beams have a different effect than this is extrapolation.

Saying that no other weapon will harm Ganondorf is equally an argument from ignorance. You rely on ignorant claims (which are arguments of ignorance themselves) and extrapolation. You have not disproved these.

An argument from ignorance is saying that a statement is true solely because it has not been proven false, or vice versa. I'm saying that yours is false because of that and all of the other evidence I've provided that it is false.

Crystanium · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
How so? The Zelda series is a special case because it's usually a different incarnation of Link, Zelda, etc. in each game, but it's the same Samus that went through all of those adventures, from Super Metroid to Metroid Prime to Other M.

I understand that, but unless said incarnation is wielding said equipment into the next game, it's not used. We can dismiss bag of spilling for the reason why x doesn't carry over y. Even though Samus is the same character, the fact is she's not using her upgrades from previous games. She may still possess them. The question is: Is it on her person? In the Metroid Prime trilogy, this seems to be the case. Even in Super Metroid to Metroid: Other M, Samus is simply activating her abilities when authorized, so MOM Samus could still have the Spazer Beam, Hi-Jump Boots, and X-Ray Visor.

Munomario777 said:
So, you've observed Ganondorf get damaged by directed-energy weapons and a nuclear explosion? Because if you haven't, then all you're doing is extrapolating. Extrapolation is a prediction outside the range of data. Here's the data you have: Ganondorf is harmed by some weapons that have holy properties, as well as silver weapons, which are typical of killing dark monsters in media anyway. That's data. Anything beyond that is guessing.

Of course I've not observed Ganondorf getting damaged by DEWs or nukes. The point I making is that because it has not been observed, I have no reason to accept the claim that Ganondorf cannot be harmed by anything other than the power to repel evil. It's like me not believing in gods. Sure, I don't have evidence that gods don't exist, but I'm not the one claiming there are gods in the first place, so the onus isn't on me. I have no reason to think so, either. You'd have to convince me.

This is where you and anyone else who supports Ganondorf is at. As I said before, though, the three who make the claim that nothing but the power to repel evil can harm Ganondorf is an argument from ignorance itself. Two games committed a logical fallacy. Interesting.

Munomario777 said:
The difference here is that Link isn't part of the Royal Family.

His descendants have a connection to them.

Munomario777 said:
Most Hylians don't have magical powers, but those in the Royal Family do, as demonstrated by Zelda; these include telepathy and prophetic dreams. Conveniently enough, these would also make it very easy for the goddess to convey information; telepathy is the ideal way of doing this.

The only people who have demonstrated abilities in the Royal Family are Zelda and Impa. In SS and OoT, however, it appears Zelda is the only one who received these. Her father didn't believe her, but Impa did. Even Link in SS and OoT had a prophetic dream, and you claim he's not part of the Royal Family.

Munomario777 said:
By "missing information", do you mean the original story not including the fact that Link is the chosen one? It's not lost meaning if it was never in the original story to begin with. The goddess simply chose not to disclose this information (or rather, tell Fi to disclose it) until it was ready to be disclosed.

Except, it was, since Fi herself says that oral tradition is "one of the least reliable methods of information retention and transmission." She points this out because Gaepora is missing that "critical information". It's not that it wasn't there, otherwise, she would have no reason to say anything about the reliability of oral tradition.

Munomario777 said:
Not really; the goddess has telepathy, so she would probably correct one of her own direct descendants if they said something wrong; Fi did it with Link, after all, and that wasn't even contradicting anything, nor was he Fi's descendant!

Zelda doesn't remember being the goddess Hylia, hence, "I had no memory at all of my existence as Hylia, but [Impa] explained it to me. She helped me to remember who I was . . . and what I had to do." Hylia abandoned her divine form and transferred her soul to a mortal body. She could possess knowledge of what's effective against Ganondorf, but to think she knows that nothing else would harm Ganondorf is an assumption.

M'kay, other than the Royal Family being directly descended from the goddess:

Munomario777 said:
This is the official list of things that can be used to harm Ganondorf. Anything else is extrapolation.
If the game itself doesn't hold authority in-game, I don't know what does.

The games contradict themselves. So, tell me which premise you disagree with.

Only the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf.
There are other weapons that can defeat Ganondorf (Magic Sword, silver arrows, &c.)

If you don't disagree with either, then the conclusion I presented is correct and the Loyal Sage, Ganondorf himself, and the King of Red Lions are incorrect. This argument I presented is known as modus tollens. In a basic form, it looks like this.

If p, then q
Not q
Therefore, not p

Munomario777 said:
True. Since this has different meanings depending on the context, we should look at gameplay and see which meaning it matches best. In-game, the Light Arrow doesn't make Ganondorf open to anything other than the Master Sword, instead stunning him to make him open to the Master Sword alone. Saying that Samus's beams have a different effect than this is extrapolation.

That's odd that the light arrows would do that. Actually, the light arrows expose Ganondorf to the Biggoron Sword and Megaton Hammer as well, not just the Master Sword. If the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf, I don't understand why it would be necessary to have light arrows in the first place. Apparently, even with the power to repel evil, it can't cut through his dark defense! This just demonstrates further than the three cited for their claims are incorrect!

Munomario777 said:
An argument from ignorance is saying that a statement is true solely because it has not been proven false, or vice versa. I'm saying that yours is false because of that and all of the other evidence I've provided that it is false.

I know what an argument from ignorance is. I also know that the characters making the claim that the power that repels evil is the only way to defeat Ganondorf is an argument from ignorance.[/quote]

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

Dryn said:
I understand that, but unless said incarnation is wielding said equipment into the next game, it's not used. We can dismiss bag of spilling for the reason why x doesn't carry over y. Even though Samus is the same character, the fact is she's not using her upgrades from previous games. She may still possess them. The question is: Is it on her person? In the Metroid Prime trilogy, this seems to be the case. Even in Super Metroid to Metroid: Other M, Samus is simply activating her abilities when authorized, so MOM Samus could still have the Spazer Beam, Hi-Jump Boots, and X-Ray Visor.

I'd say it's more of a gameplay-story segregation thing; that or Samus loses them in offscreen events.

Of course I've not observed Ganondorf getting damaged by DEWs or nukes. The point I making is that because it has not been observed, I have no reason to accept the claim that Ganondorf cannot be harmed by anything other than the power to repel evil. It's like me not believing in gods. Sure, I don't have evidence that gods don't exist, but I'm not the one claiming there are gods in the first place, so the onus isn't on me. I have no reason to think so, either. You'd have to convince me.

The difference here is that I have the game's lore backing me up, while you're the one opposing it. If you won't provide proof that Ganondorf can be harmed by Samus's beams, I'm just going to drop out.

This is where you and anyone else who supports Ganondorf is at. As I said before, though, the three who make the claim that nothing but the power to repel evil can harm Ganondorf is an argument from ignorance itself. Two games committed a logical fallacy. Interesting.

How is it an argument from ignorance?

His descendants have a connection to them.

I'm aware of that, but the Royal Family would have a higher regard, seeing as how they rule the kingdom and all.

The only people who have demonstrated abilities in the Royal Family are Zelda and Impa. In SS and OoT, however, it appears Zelda is the only one who received these. Her father didn't believe her, but Impa did. Even Link in SS and OoT had a prophetic dream, and you claim he's not part of the Royal Family.

The King of Red Lions (AKA King of Hyrule, AKA Royal Family member, AKA the one that says only the Master Sword and such can defeat Ganondorf) turns into a talking boat. I'd say that's magic. As for the dreams, Link would get some sort of priority as well, seeing as how he's the hero that will soon save the world and all, and the gods would likely need some way to prepare him for this shocking fact.

Except, it was, since Fi herself says that oral tradition is "one of the least reliable methods of information retention and transmission." She points this out because Gaepora is missing that "critical information". It's not that it wasn't there, otherwise, she would have no reason to say anything about the reliability of oral tradition.

Gaepora isn't part of the Royal Family, which had not been established yet during the events of Skyward Sword. If he was, this likely wouldn't have happened.

Zelda doesn't remember being the goddess Hylia, hence, "I had no memory at all of my existence as Hylia, but [Impa] explained it to me. She helped me to remember who I was . . . and what I had to do." Hylia abandoned her divine form and transferred her soul to a mortal body. She could possess knowledge of what's effective against Ganondorf, but to think she knows that nothing else would harm Ganondorf is an assumption.

Just because Hylia is in a mortal body doesn't mean she doesn't retain her same level of godly knowledge.

The games contradict themselves. So, tell me which premise you disagree with.

Only the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf.
There are other weapons that can defeat Ganondorf (Magic Sword, silver arrows, &c.)

If you don't disagree with either, then the conclusion I presented is correct and the Loyal Sage, Ganondorf himself, and the King of Red Lions are incorrect. This argument I presented is known as modus tollens. In a basic form, it looks like this.

If p, then q
Not q
Therefore, not p

I agree with the premise that only the Master Sword and other weapons with those magical powers can defeat Ganondorf, but others can make him open, for a few reasons:

It's the most common in the series
It has both lore and gameplay to back it up
The Magical Sword has magic that is implied to be similar to that of the Master Sword (in fact, this could simply be another name for the Master Sword, since it didn't appear in the original game AFAIK), and according to the old man that gives you the Silver Arrows in the original game, "SECRET POWER IS SAID TO BE IN THE ARROW." Again, this is implied to be similar to that of the Master/Magical Sword.

That's odd that the light arrows would do that. Actually, the light arrows expose Ganondorf to the Biggoron Sword and Megaton Hammer as well, not just the Master Sword. If the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf, I don't understand why it would be necessary to have light arrows in the first place. Apparently, even with the power to repel evil, it can't cut through his dark defense! This just demonstrates further than the three cited for their claims are incorrect!

Do I really have to bring this up again?

Zelda Wiki said:
The Biggoron's Sword is incapable of defeating Ganon as only the Master Sword can deliver the final blow. However, it can be useful during the battle, as Ganon knocks the Master Sword out of reach.

Zelda Wiki said:
The Megaton Hammer is also effective in the final battle with Ganon for attacking his tail.

This in no way disproves said claims.

I know what an argument from ignorance is. I also know that the characters making the claim that the power that repels evil is the only way to defeat Ganondorf is an argument from ignorance.

How so?

Crystanium · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
I'd say it's more of a gameplay-story segregation thing; that or Samus loses them in offscreen events.

That's probably the case. It's been apparent since the Metroid Prime trilogy and Metroid: Other M, even though in Metroid II: Return of Samus, she as a few upgrades at the beginning like missiles.

Munomario777 said:
The difference here is that I have the game's lore backing me up, while you're the one opposing it. If you won't provide proof that Ganondorf can be harmed by Samus's beams, I'm just going to drop out.

Yes, you have lore, which I demonstrated contradicts itself. All I need to disprove is the argument made in Ganondorf's favor.

Munomario777 said:
How is it an argument from ignorance?

Because the three characters in-universe are making claims, especially Ganondorf himself, who would probably know himself better than the Loyal Sage and King of Red Lions.

Munomario777 said:
I'm aware of that, but the Royal Family would have a higher regard, seeing as how they rule the kingdom and all.

My point was that not being part of the Royal Family doesn't mean one cannot have prophecies, as it was demonstrated in both SS and OoT by Link in dreams.

Munomario777 said:
The King of Red Lions (AKA King of Hyrule, AKA Royal Family member, AKA the one that says only the Master Sword and such can defeat Ganondorf) turns into a talking boat. I'd say that's magic. As for the dreams, Link would get some sort of priority as well, seeing as how he's the hero that will soon save the world and all, and the gods would likely need some way to prepare him for this shocking fact.

Of course, so really, the only people who would need to know are those who are destined. After all, Zelda's father doesn't believe what she experienced was a prophecy in OoT, and he's the king! That's kind of odd that a kingdom that's going to fall within one's lifetime would not be especially informed by this important detail, either by vision or dream. Impa herself was a sage in OoT, so that's understandable that she would be informed as well.

Munomario777 said:
Gaepora isn't part of the Royal Family, which had not been established yet during the events of Skyward Sword. If he was, this likely wouldn't have happened.

[. . .]

Just because Hylia is in a mortal body doesn't mean she doesn't retain her same level of godly knowledge.

My point is that Hylia became Zelda and by doing so, lost knowledge about herself. She had to be informed by Impa, who also isn't part of the Royal Family, as it had not yet been established. We don't know if other Zelda incarnations are aware of this fact.

Munomario777 said:
I agree with the premise that only the Master Sword and other weapons with those magical powers can defeat Ganondorf, but others can make him open, for a few reasons:

It's the most common in the series

It has both lore and gameplay to back it up

The Magical Sword has magic that is implied to be similar to that of the Master Sword (in fact, this could simply be another name for the Master Sword, since it didn't appear in the original game AFAIK), and according to the old man that gives you the Silver Arrows in the original game, "SECRET POWER IS SAID TO BE IN THE ARROW." Again, this is implied to be similar to that of the Master/Magical Sword.

You're missing the point. It's not that these other weapons can harm Ganondorf, it's the fact that three individuals make the claim that nothing but the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf and we know from the series that this isn't the case. Whether or not the Magic Sword or silver arrows possess the power to repel evil is not the point. The point is these three are stating only the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf.

Munomario777 said:
Do I really have to bring this up again?

[. . .]

This in no way disproves said claims.

You do realize that these are referring to Ganondorf's beast form, correct? I'd say the reason why the Biggoron Sword doesn't defeat Ganondorf is not because it cannot, but because the Master Sword is an integral part of the story, that it's used to defeat Ganondorf. It doesn't even kill him. The sages seal Ganondorf away.

Munomario777 said:
How so?

I explained above.

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

Dryn said:
That's probably the case. It's been apparent since the Metroid Prime trilogy and Metroid: Other M, even though in Metroid II: Return of Samus, she as a few upgrades at the beginning like missiles.

Mmmhmm.

Yes, you have lore, which I demonstrated contradicts itself. All I need to disprove is the argument made in Ganondorf's favor.

And I'm about to demonstrate that it doesn't contradict itself.

Because the three characters in-universe are making claims, especially Ganondorf himself, who would probably know himself better than the Loyal Sage and King of Red Lions.

How does someone making a claim inherently mean they're using an argument from ignorance fallacy?

My point was that not being part of the Royal Family doesn't mean one cannot have prophecies, as it was demonstrated in both SS and OoT by Link in dreams.

Yes, which I took into account.

Of course, so really, the only people who would need to know are those who are destined. After all, Zelda's father doesn't believe what she experienced was a prophecy in OoT, and he's the king! That's kind of odd that a kingdom that's going to fall within one's lifetime would not be especially informed by this important detail, either by vision or dream. Impa herself was a sage in OoT, so that's understandable that she would be informed as well.

As far as I can tell, the king doesn't really have that much of an important role in the main plot, so he wouldn't really need to be informed.

My point is that Hylia became Zelda and by doing so, lost knowledge about herself. She had to be informed by Impa, who also isn't part of the Royal Family, as it had not yet been established. We don't know if other Zelda incarnations are aware of this fact.

I'd imagine that being informed by Impa (who is a sage in Ocarina, as you pointed out, so it makes sense), along with making her realize that she's the goddess, also "awaken" her godly traits again, or at least allow her to use them since she was now informed that she could use them. As for future Zeldas, I think how it works is that the first Zelda in Skyward Sword was Hylia incarnate, but the rest are only descendants of her.

You're missing the point. It's not that these other weapons can harm Ganondorf, it's the fact that three individuals make the claim that nothing but the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf and we know from the series that this isn't the case. Whether or not the Magic Sword or silver arrows possess the power to repel evil is not the point. The point is these three are stating only the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf.

Really? Let's look at those quotes again, shall we?

Dyrn said:
"The only weapon potent enough to defeat the wizard is the legendary Master Sword." - Loyal Sage, A Link to the Past.

"It is none other than the Master Sword . . . The blade of evil's bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!" - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

"You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not spark with the power to repel evil! What you hold is useless. Go back to the world below, and tell that to the pathetic fools who made this blade! Its power is gone, and its edges are dull!" - Ganon, The Wind Waker

"You cannot defeat Ganon until the power to repel evil has been returned to the Master Sword." - King of Red Lions, The Wind Waker

I'll break these down one at a time:

This one is a bit tricky, but multiple Silver Arrows are required to defeat Ganondorf (they're not reusable, and I believe he takes multiple hits). The Master Sword, on the other hand, can be used over and over. When the Sage says that the Master Sword is the only weapon that can defeat Ganondorf, he's correct, since the Silver Arrows are multiple weapons. The Master Sword is the only weapon potent enough because one Silver Arrow does not defeat Ganondorf.
Key words in this one being "only sword". Silver Arrows are not swords.
Ganondorf himself confirms that the Power to Repel Evil is the element in the Master Sword that allows Link to defeat him using it.
Seeing as how Link doesn't have the Silver Arrows in Wind Waker, this is true.

No real contradictions here.

You do realize that these are referring to Ganondorf's beast form, correct? I'd say the reason why the Biggoron Sword doesn't defeat Ganondorf is not because it cannot, but because the Master Sword is an integral part of the story, that it's used to defeat Ganondorf. It doesn't even kill him. The sages seal Ganondorf away.

I don't see why the beast form's weaknesses wouldn't carry over to the regular form. By the way, the same thing applies in the fight against regular Ganondorf as far as the Biggoron's Sword goes. Whether or not the Master Sword is an integral part of the story is irrelevant; because the player cannot use the Biggoron's Sword (or the Megaton Hammer) to defeat Ganondorf in-game, there's no reason to assume that the Biggoron's Sword could be used to defeat Ganondorf, especially when multiple other sources (including the game itself) state otherwise.

Nerdicon · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
She could attack, dodge, fly, etc. to avoid attacks while she's shooting Star Bits, though. The black holes may be rather small, but Rosalina could create more very easily, or alternatively hide inside of it, essentially making it an enhanced version of her regular protective barrier. I'd imagine the blue light energy of the Arrow of Light would penetrate the shield if Sonic didn't. The Rhythm Wisp, while essentially useless in Lost World, has a rather interesting application here. Also, just running allows Sonic to create a sonic boom, so there's that.

Hiding inside the black hole would actually be a terrible idea given that the projectiles would now home in on her location (because she's in the black hole). Rosalina trying to fly away also wouldn't be a great idea because she's completely vulnerable, and most characters have screen nukes or something similar to defeat her while she tries to fly away (Palutena's Heavenly Light, Crash/Mike ability, Hyper Flash, Rain Flush) so that really isn't an option either. She definitely couldn't attack given that her attacks are incredibly weak without any Lumas, and she's slow moving without constant use of Launch Stars (which compared to the competition is actually quite slow). Lastly, a grand majority of the attacks that could harm her come out too quick or are too large for Rosalina to dodge.

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

Nerdicon said:
Hiding inside the black hole would actually be a terrible idea given that the projectiles would now home in on her location (because she's in the black hole). Rosalina trying to fly away also wouldn't be a great idea because she's completely vulnerable, and most characters have screen nukes or something similar to defeat her while she tries to fly away (Palutena's Heavenly Light, Crash/Mike ability, Hyper Flash, Rain Flush) so that really isn't an option either. She definitely couldn't attack given that her attacks are incredibly weak without any Lumas, and she's slow moving without constant use of Launch Stars (which compared to the competition is actually quite slow). Lastly, a grand majority of the attacks that could harm her come out too quick or are too large for Rosalina to dodge.

Well, she wouldn't hide in the center of the black hole of course, but rather about halfway between the midpoint and the edge of it on the opposite side than the opponent's attacks. This would give her protection from ranged attacks and melee attacks, as well as an invisibility effect, and she could still control the Lumas from inside to attack.

Nerdicon · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Well, she wouldn't hide in the center of the black hole of course, but rather about halfway between the midpoint and the edge of it on the opposite side than the opponent's attacks. This would give her protection from ranged attacks and melee attacks, as well as an invisibility effect, and she could still control the Lumas from inside to attack.

Well given that black holes in SMG seem to have a spiral pattern, this still wouldn't be a good idea as the attack would zip around the singularity while being pulled closer effectively hitting anything within the area of the ergosphere. So hiding behind the black hole would also be pointless. Maybe a thin beam that hits the ergosphere at a weird angle would slingshot itself out, but that's not likely. The way I see it if we redid Rosalina's match-ups is

vs

Would be a landslide victory for Palutena given that by activating the Mega Laser as soon as the match began, Rosalina would take two hits before she could even react. She couldn't fly away in time normally and she couldn't get any Luma help because they would be killed by the laser

vs

Rosalina would win this one easily for obvious reasons

vs

Wheel Kirby or Mirror Kirby, either one of these destroys Palutena without much effort, sending her to losers in place of Kirby, which means Palutena and Rosalina fight again, and I've already weighed in on that.
I've also heard talk of C-Link being able to defeat Samus, but I personally don't agree just because use Link can't hit Samus without magic

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

Nerdicon said:
Well given that black holes in SMG seem to have a spiral pattern, this still wouldn't be a good idea as the attack would zip around the singularity while being pulled closer effectively hitting anything within the area of the ergosphere. So hiding behind the black hole would also be pointless. Maybe a thin beam that hits the ergosphere at a weird angle would slingshot itself out, but that's not likely.

Hiding far behind a black hole, then. Some of them have a ridiculous range (sometimes up to about ten times the black hole's actual size), and would easily pull in most projectiles. The range isn't clear, either, so uncareful opponents could easily get sucked in by accident.

The way I see it if we redid Rosalina's match-ups is
vs
Would be a landslide victory for Palutena given that by activating the Mega Laser as soon as the match began, Rosalina would take two hits before she could even react. She couldn't fly away in time normally and she couldn't get any Luma help because they would be killed by the laser

At the same time, though, Rosalina could activate a black hole just as the match begins, both negating the Mega Laser and sucking Palutena in. How fast is the Mega Laser in Uprising, out of curiosity? It seems to be a bit on the slow side in Smash after all.

vs
Rosalina would win this one easily for obvious reasons
vs
Wheel Kirby or Mirror Kirby, either one of these destroys Palutena without much effort, sending her to losers in place of Kirby, which means Palutena and Rosalina fight again, and I've already weighed in on that.
I've also heard talk of C-Link being able to defeat Samus, but I personally don't agree just because use Link can't hit Samus without magic

Agreed.

Nerdicon · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Hiding far behind a black hole, then. Some of them have a ridiculous range (sometimes up to about ten times the black hole's actual size), and would easily pull in most projectiles. The range isn't clear, either, so uncareful opponents could easily get sucked in by accident.

Well, the only unclear portion of the black hole's gravity is the ergosphere, which as I think I've said before is perfectly escapable. Most of these attacks might be driven off course by the black hole but not completely sucked in. It should also be noted that the ergosphere on the black holes in SMG must not be very strong as it doesn't distort the light around it. Not to mention Samus is probably smart enough to calculate her blasts so they hit even with the wonky gravity.

At the same time, though, Rosalina could activate a black hole just as the match begins, both negating the Mega Laser and sucking Palutena in. How fast is the Mega Laser in Uprising, out of curiosity? It seems to be a bit on the slow side in Smash after all.

Instant. Literally instant, there is no delay from activating it to the attack hitting max range. Rosalina has a little less than a second of delay to just fill up the Luma, and then a slightly longer delay as the Luma gets into place. So Palutena can pull an easy win.

Crystanium · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
How does someone making a claim inherently mean they're using an argument from ignorance fallacy?

A claim itself doesn't necessarily mean it's an argument from ignorance. However, a claim isn't something one should readily accept, given the meaning of a claim is typically without evidence. This can lead to an argument from ignorance. You know the Loyal Sage, Ganondorf, and King of Red Lions are not omniscient. You know that of the three, only Ganondorf knows himself best. You don't know what the Loyal Sage or King of Red Lions knows, so you cannot speak on their behalf. That's hearsay, or in this case, fanon. You've yet to prove that the gods informed these people that nothing but the power to repel evil can harm Ganondorf, i.e., that there is no other weapon in the Universe that can harm Ganondorf.

Munomario777 said:
I'd imagine that being informed by Impa (who is a sage in Ocarina, as you pointed out, so it makes sense), along with making her realize that she's the goddess, also "awaken" her godly traits again, or at least allow her to use them since she was now informed that she could use them. As for future Zeldas, I think how it works is that the first Zelda in Skyward Sword was Hylia incarnate, but the rest are only descendants of her.

We never see Zelda use these. Interesting point on the last bit about the descendants not being Hylia.

Munomario777 said:
This one is a bit tricky, but multiple Silver Arrows are required to defeat Ganondorf (they're not reusable, and I believe he takes multiple hits). The Master Sword, on the other hand, can be used over and over. When the Sage says that the Master Sword is the only weapon that can defeat Ganondorf, he's correct, since the Silver Arrows are multiple weapons. The Master Sword is the only weapon potent enough because one Silver Arrow does not defeat Ganondorf.

Key words in this one being "only sword". Silver Arrows are not swords.

Ganondorf himself confirms that the Power to Repel Evil is the element in the Master Sword that allows Link to defeat him using it.

Seeing as how Link doesn't have the Silver Arrows in Wind Waker, this is true.

No real contradictions here.

You're reaching. First, if silver arrows also have the power to repel evil, then it doesn't matter how many arrows are required. The fact of the matter is that these arrows are also potent enough to defeat Ganondorf, not just the Master Sword. Multiple arrows, multiple sword strikes, they require more than one strike. The claim is, therefore, false. Second, in The Legend of Zelda manual, p. 39, it states, "Link's no match for Ganon and his might. Whatever attack Link uses, Ganon just repels him. But if Link could only use the magical sword and some other object, he'll manage to topple the mighty Ganon. Other object? What's that?"

"Other object" is singular. Also, 銀の矢 is translated "arrow of silver", which again, is singular. Even the old man you quoted says, "Secret power is said to be in the arrow." Again, it's singular, which seems to suggest that multiple hits is a game mechanic, whereas the actual occurrence would require only one silver arrow, similarly to how multiple shots from the hyper beam is required to kill Mother Brain in Super Metroid, yet the cut-scene in Metroid: Other M requires only one hit.

The Master Sword isn't the only sword capable of banishing Ganondorf. The magic sword does this, as do other blades in the Zeldaverse with the power to repel evil. It just so happens that the King of Red Lions is aware of the Master Sword's ability to do this, making his statement ignorant. Even Ganondorf's statement says "a blade that does not sparkle," not, "the blade that does not sparkle", suggesting at least other means of killing him with other blades.

Munomario777 said:
I don't see why the beast form's weaknesses wouldn't carry over to the regular form. By the way, the same thing applies in the fight against regular Ganondorf as far as the Biggoron's Sword goes. Whether or not the Master Sword is an integral part of the story is irrelevant; because the player cannot use the Biggoron's Sword (or the Megaton Hammer) to defeat Ganondorf in-game, there's no reason to assume that the Biggoron's Sword could be used to defeat Ganondorf, especially when multiple other sources (including the game itself) state otherwise.

I recall defeating Ganondorf's human form in OoT with the Biggoron Sword and Megaton Hammer. It probably wouldn't carry over to Ganondorf's beast form because this form tends to be stronger. Still, even in his beast form, Ganondorf took damage from Wolf Link's bite where he was exposed from the executioner's sword. What I mean to say is that when the divine blessing is removed, even momentarily, Ganondorf is as vulnerable as any other Gerudo. Zelda and Hyrule Historia do call Ganondorf a "human".

Kirby Dragons · Mar 8, 2015

Does anyone besides Dryn think that

would beat

? If not, then

should be declared winner. This debate is going on and on, so voting should decide the winner.

Nerdicon · Mar 8, 2015

There's no evidence supporting Dryn's claims, just assumptions. Claiming that something is true simply because there's nothing saying that it isn't true is pointless. If a theory or claim cannot be proven nor dismissed, it has no place in logical discussion. Not to mention that we have claims that say Ganondorf can't be killed by non-holy weaponry. It doesn't matter that the people of Hyrule may be ignorant to technology for it is backed by evidence that has been presented several times at this point. And you can't refute this evidence no matter how miniscule as you have no evidence to back your claims. Not to mention you also don't have the majority's favor.

Crystanium · Mar 8, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
Does anyone besides Dryn think that would beat ? If not, then should be declared winner. This debate is going on and on, so voting should decide the winner.

A vote doesn't do anything.

So I discovered some new information. From the Metroid Fusion site, "The Plasma Beam's three lasers can easily cut through enemies, continuing on to take out even more foes." I've always been curious about the plasma beam in the 2D Metroid games, since it's never clear. In Metroid: Other M, the plasma beam produces an electrical discharge when it's fired. This would technically make the plasma beam an electrolaser, which creates a laser-induced plasma channel.

Nerdicon said:
There's no evidence supporting Dryn's claims, just assumptions.

I'm not making assumptions. Prove that extrapolation is reliable.

Nerdicon said:
Claiming that something is true simply because there's nothing saying that it isn't true is pointless.

And vice versa. I've no reason to accept claims if they cannot be proved. The onus is on Ganondorf supporters.

Nerdicon said:
If a theory or claim cannot be proven nor dismissed, it has no place in logical discussion.

Then Ganondorf doesn't belong here.

Nerdicon said:
Not to mention that we have claims that say Ganondorf can't be killed by non-holy weaponry.

Claims typically lack evidence. Claims don't mean anything unless they can be proved.

Nerdicon said:
It doesn't matter that the people of Hyrule may be ignorant to technology for it is backed by evidence that has been presented several times at this point.

Not even a handful of examples prove Ganondorf's invulnerability to everything non-holy.

Nerdicon said:
And you can't refute this evidence no matter how miniscule as you have no evidence to back your claims.

It's not up to me to prove anything, as the onus is not on me.

Nerdicon said:
Not to mention you also don't have the majority's favor.

Ad populum is a fallacy.

Edit: I'll just take my leave. There's no convincing anyone here about this. The onus isn't even on me, which is sad. It's the equivalent of saying, "God exists, prove me wrong."

mark welford · Mar 8, 2015

how about

vs.

? or

vs.

? Just wondering.

Nerdicon · Mar 8, 2015

Dryn said:
A vote doesn't do anything.

So I discovered some new information. From the Metroid Fusion site, "The Plasma Beam's three lasers can easily cut through enemies, continuing on to take out even more foes." I've always been curious about the plasma beam in the 2D Metroid games, since it's never clear. In Metroid: Other M, the plasma beam produces an electrical discharge when it's fired. This would technically make the plasma beam an electrolaser, which creates a laser-induced plasma channel.

I'm not making assumptions. Prove that extrapolation is reliable.

Click to expand...

You should be the one to prove it, last I checked you have literally nothing to back up your claims other than that the claims by the people of Hyrule are incorrect just because they could be

And vice versa. I've no reason to accept claims if they cannot be proved. The onus is on Ganondorf supporters.

Click to expand...

Actually you were the party that challenged the claim that Ganondorf was immune to non-holy weapons. The claim is yours to prove and until you offer a valid argument, the point still stands

Then Ganondorf doesn't belong here.

Click to expand...

Then most characters don't belong here. Oh you can't prove Sonic moves at light-speed because there's never an in-game example. I guess Sonic moves at the speed of snail. That's about how much sense you're making.

Claims typically lack evidence. Claims don't mean anything unless they can be proved.

Click to expand...

Well can your claims be proven? Can you disprove the claims inside the game's lore?

Not even a handful of examples prove Ganondorf's invulnerability to everything non-holy.

Click to expand...

Then how come only holy weaponry has defeated Ganondorf? There is technology in Hyrule (Beamos for example) that the lore would take into consideration. You're making more assumptions than we are.

It's not up to me to prove anything, as the onus is not on me.

Click to expand...

Well actually it is given that you need to have a valid point to begin making your argument, which you do not have.

Ad populum is a fallacy.

Click to expand...

So is argumentum ad ignorantium assuming that a claim is true simply because it cannot be proven false. Your entire argument is a fallacy and as such, it is not valid

Edit: I'll just take my leave. There's no convincing anyone here about this. The onus isn't even on me, which is sad. It's the equivalent of saying, "God exists, prove me wrong."

Click to expand...

'Bout time you swallowed your pride so we can move on

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

Well, in that case, let's just continue with the bracket, shall we?

Nerdicon said:
Well, the only unclear portion of the black hole's gravity is the ergosphere, which as I think I've said before is perfectly escapable. Most of these attacks might be driven off course by the black hole but not completely sucked in. It should also be noted that the ergosphere on the black holes in SMG must not be very strong as it doesn't distort the light around it. Not to mention Samus is probably smart enough to calculate her blasts so they hit even with the wonky gravity.

True.

Instant. Literally instant, there is no delay from activating it to the attack hitting max range. Rosalina has a little less than a second of delay to just fill up the Luma, and then a slightly longer delay as the Luma gets into place. So Palutena can pull an easy win.

I see. Something that should be noted is that Rosalina, in her only playable appearance besides Mario Kart and such, has a bit of time after getting hit by an attack to recover in the form of invincibility frames, which last for a few seconds. This would give her time to create a few black holes, as well as a Health Mushroom to restore that hit point and double her maximum health. By the way, are there any similar force field shield-type Powers in Uprising, and if so, does the Mega Laser pass through them?

mark welford said:
how about vs. ? or vs. ? Just wondering.

Hmm, that would be interesting. Of course, an analysis would be the best way to draw a definitive conclusion, but I'm placing my metaphorical bets on

and

.

@

Nerdicon I agree, but I think the best thing to do would be to just drop the subject and move on.

mark welford · Mar 8, 2015

metaphorical bets on

and

.

@

Nerdicon I agree, but I think the best thing to do would be to just drop the subject and move on.[/quote]
Do it. I come to this thread for the battles and of the 2 I'm more interested on how the

vs.

would turn out.

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

mark welford said:
Do it. I come to this thread for the battles and of the 2 I'm more interested on how the vs. would turn out.

Okay, I might do that sometime. Have you checked out the bracket we've got going on? I think that might tickle your fancy.

Nerdicon · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
I see. Something that should be noted is that Rosalina, in her only playable appearance besides Mario Kart and such, has a bit of time after getting hit by an attack to recover in the form of invincibility frames, which last for a few seconds. This would give her time to create a few black holes, as well as a Health Mushroom to restore that hit point and double her maximum health.

Invincibility frames are a game mechanic, not an inherent ability of the character unless said otherwise (which it's not)

By the way, are there any similar force field shield-type Powers in Uprising, and if so, does the Mega Laser pass through them?

There's the reflect barrier and to my knowledge the mega laser ignores it. It should also be mentioned that the mega laser doesn't seem to conform to gravity or lose effectiveness upon contact with a wall

mark welford · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Okay, I might do that sometime. Have you checked out the bracket we've got going on? I think that might tickle your fancy.

Yes I have. Off the top of my head

beat

,

beat

,

and

.

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

Nerdicon said:
Invincibility frames are a game mechanic, not an inherent ability of the character unless said otherwise (which it's not)

Fair enough.

There's the reflect barrier and to my knowledge the mega laser ignores it. It should also be mentioned that the mega laser doesn't seem to conform to gravity or lose effectiveness upon contact with a wall

Do you have a source for that? It says that the Daybreak bypasses it, but nothing about the Mega Laser.

Nerdicon · Mar 8, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Do you have a source for that? It says that the Daybreak bypasses it, but nothing about the Mega Laser.

I said that's what I remember. I'd need someone else to help me test it, I know for sure that the attack doesn't actually reflect back.

mark welford · Mar 8, 2015

Nerdicon said:
I said that's what I remember. I'd need someone else to help me test it, I know for sure that the attack doesn't actually reflect back.

Use

his cape reflects anything right?

Munomario777 · Mar 8, 2015

mark welford said:
Use his cape reflects anything right?

I don't think it does in the actual Mario games. Also, @

Nerdicon 's talking in regards to Rosalina versus Palutena, so Mario's not really a factor.

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