Whom does Bowser counter?

[PXTalon2000]

Just wond'rin' if anyone considers Bowser to be a counter character to anyone else and why..

I remember D1 said some consider him a Fox counter in his guide. I couuuld see it, but I would have to experience it before I believe it.

 

[Shadowfury333]

I'd say Bowser is a Marth/Roy counter. Since those two have to attack melee, Bowser can stop them in their tracks. Bowser also is able to easily grab them and throw them away. Bowser doesn't even need to get close to Marth/Roy since he can use fire breath, albeit temporarily.

 

[PXTalon2000]

Nobody is a Marth counter. Shiek may have an advantage, but she's still not a counter. And if anyone is a counter, it's definitely not Bowser.
A tourney quality Marth won't let Bowser through his sword without much difficulty (though I am curious about bair, if anyone could get some from data on that. Marth and Roy will both have an easier time grabbing Bowser than the other way around. Firebreath is cool and such, and I'll admit it is useful, but nothing that Marth can't handle. You'll get either minor damage, or suffer a sweetspot.

Roy, on the other hand, I might be able to see. Roy doesn't have great range. Roy's combos are largely breakable. Roy is vulnerable to low-altitude juggles. Roy is susceptible to early kills. Roy can be edgeguarded by edgehog to claw at very low %'s, and getting him there isn't too hard since you mostly outrange him. A simple bair, a well-placed fsmash, even a backthrow. And you've got firebreath on your side.
What's Roy got? DED, dtilt and fast shuffling. Not bad. Tech chase won't happen. Why's Bowser gonna' tech anyway? Roy can edgeguard but he's certainly no beast at it.

I could see Roy but not Marth.

 

[Shadowfury333]

Alright, ignore what I said about Marth. As for what I said earlier, The counter would be to when they approach you, not the other way around. And besides, how can Roy counter an aerial dn-B.

 

[PXTalon2000]

Originally posted by Shadowfury333
Alright, ignore what I said about Marth. As for what I said earlier, The counter would be to when they approach you, not the other way around. And besides, how can Roy counter an aerial dn-B.

With an... Aerial down B ? XD
Or an air dodge...
Or just WDing out of the way and proceeding to beat the crap out of Bowser...

Eww, someone else cover this.

 

[GrabfestBowser]

Bowser COUNTERS Bowser

The only character for sure Bowser counters is himself in a ditto. Bowser relies heavily on shieldgrabbing and the Klaw remedies this. The big point is once you get a bowser off the ledge... a simple forward tilt timed correctly - which is EASY TO DO - sends him back out again, and again, and again. Ditto matches are stupid anyway though, so if you want to count a ditto as a counter, have fun, if not, oh well.
Luke

 

[ParadoxalSun]

In my experience, he can get close to evening it up with a Fox. I think that a Fox still wins that but Bowser does make it hard on him especially considering the tier difference. Sort of just crouch-cancel through everything.

My main as of now (Yoshi, I used to use Pika, Jiggs and then Falco but wanted something new) seems to have a lot of trouble with him. The combos I pull off with Yoshi are typically are of the vertical variety and it's hard getting Bowser up without taking any knockback (if I do get hit, I can't get to him fast enough to hit him again). Also, Yoshi's best air moves are up and down (his afa is good but spikes so it's still vertical) but aua only hits up and ada is the flutter kick. So Yoshi only has the sex kick to use. On the ground he is outranged on most attacks I think and the slow sheild allows him to be more easily grabbed. I do better with Yoshi against a CF than a Bowser but it may just be me.

 

[USSR-DarkMarth]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME, MARTH A COUNTER TO BOWSER vis Versa, never.

 

[HoodedHomie1234]

Nobody is a Marth counter. Shiek may have an advantage, but she's still not a counter. And if anyone is a counter, it's definitely not Bowser.

Actually, I remember seeing a conversation on the DC++ hub where Ken(the best Marth player(and best player period)) said that his marth was horribly beaten by an amazing Bowser

True story

 

[Dan-E]

that would make the bowser player the best player around now wouldn't it?

i don't believe it for second.

 

[HoodedHomie1234]

whatever fool, but he said it

just logged onto DC++ to confirm this and make sure i wasnt hearing things, 2 people have already confirmed that he said it

PWNT

 

[Arash]

about that...

i may have beaten ken's marth once with bowser, but he beat me 30 times that day in the same matchup..

bowser has worse matches than marth for sure, but a counter? keep dreaming..

 

[Dan-E]

^yep I guess Ken was 'horribly beaten'. BTW is that particular match on the hub?

 

[GrabfestBowser]

Arash

Hey man, you going to be coming out to the Midwest at all? I was talking with Ken at FC about you, and he was tellin me that you beat him a couple times and stuff... he says we're the same level... anyway, let me know if you are comin out next time, we'll ditto, or we'll swap Bowser info... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Luke

 

[Arash]

if you're coming to TG, i'll probably bowser ditto you or something

 

[Ratking1234]

Originally posted by HoodedHomie1234
whatever fool, but he said it

just logged onto DC++ to confirm this and make sure i wasnt hearing things, 2 people have already confirmed that he said it

PWNT

Yeah I heard the same thing, and I have actually seen Bowser play well against marths *shrug*

 

[NaS]

bowser>pichu

 

[PXTalon2000]

Originally posted by NaS
bowser>pichu

Pictish says so anyways... I agree...

 

[stilettotrap]

GrabfestBowser, isn't it normally better to shield into Fortress rather than shield grab? I know he has uses for his throws, but his overall crap grab speed makes it really hard to shield grab anyone who knows how to l-cancel. Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[TWP]

GrabfestBowser, isn't it normally better to shield into Fortress rather than shield grab? I know he has uses for his throws, but his overall crap grab speed makes it really hard to shield grab anyone who knows how to l-cancel. Is there something I'm missing here?

I know I'm no grabfest, but this is generally a better idea under most situations.

First you can maneuver in and out for a hit with little fear of punishment with the up-B, butif you're playing at high levels, you can expect big punishment if you screw up a shield grab.

So no, you're not missing a thing. Either that, or we're both missing it.

 

[GrabfestBowser]

I shield into fortress most of the time when people are coming at me from above, but I shield grab every dash attack. It's easy to realize if the person you are fighting is hitting all of his Lcancels though, and if he isn't, then I shield grab when someone is coming down with an aerial. At FC I fortressed almost every aerial, but grabbed everyone who dash attacks... like the peaches, foxes, falcos, you get the idea. I fortress everytime I know I will get a killing blow out of shielding though, whether it's aerial or dash attack.

Another thing... I don't like the fortress unless I am shielding into it or retreating with it. There are times when you do it, and you try to nip the opponent with the end of it for 3 percent, and then because it's so quick you can get it off again, but it's rare and almost lucky. I never just strictly fortress going right into someone as my way of approaching them or getting on top of them. A good player with someone who has a great "Bowser Grab" will destroy you. What I call a Bowser Grab are the few characters who can grab you out of the fortress easily... Peach, Sheik, Marth, a couple others. My friend who plays Peach grabs me out of the fortress 90 percent of the time, whether I'm coming back from off the level, or doing it on the ground. He never dash attacks against me either, he just runs up and grabs, like I do to people. I'm convinced if you use peach you should never dash attack cuz you can run up and grab, then forward throw and make a combo out of it - at low percentages of course. But almost everyone who plays this game shields when someone approaches them, so just grab, get the move off, take what you can get, and then go from there.

So yes, shield fortress when approached from air, shield grab dash attacks, shield fortress any attack from high percentages.

And the fortress isn't all that good except in that situation, and retreating away from your opponent. And coming back from the ledge of course. It's a good move, not super great though.

Luke

 

[TWP]

Thanks so much for clearing this up dude

 

[PXTalon2000]

Hmm, Luke, are you sure you aren't understating or overstating anything? For one thing I think the fortress is a better move than wherefore you give it credit. It's a good move to use after a CC; it's a good move after a clank... Or if your opponent is just immediately behind you. In the air it does humongoid damage, and if you can't get that close by any other means you can jump out of the shield for it. You can use it simply for clanking, combo-breaking or trading off with an aerial; if you get knicked while you're doing it, you may combo into uair and such (which can kill at hideously low %'s). And, of course, it's more usable from a shield than his roll or sidestep.
I just see it the way Decadent does (illud est dicere... one of his best moves). It's wonderfully versatile... But it's not an approach tool.

Thing about Peach's grab: it's fast, but it has short range. Yeah it's good when you can land it; you can combo with her throws and such; if the opponent doesn't DI the downthrow correctly you can catch. But Peach needs a dash attack, too, for its range and comboing ability. Logically, when you deal with an opponent who consistently shields on approach, you will tend to go in with or fake into a grab. But not everyone shields on approach... People shuffle or attack to win on speed, hitbox/range or priority as a means of defense (in the case of a grab, it won't be priority)... They jump or hop to land an attack on those below.. They retreat by shorthopping, wavedashing, or dashing away. Peach's grab simply doesn't have a lot of range, and a good many of the options that players have to counter retreats will cause it to fail..

Bowser, of course, was not blessed with a good sidestep or wavedash... or initial dash animation... or a quick shorthop... #_#
When people play my Bowser I may tell them to grab spam so I can adjust to it; otherwise I'd probably habitually shield.

And... If Bowser sweetspots the fortress, he should be out of ftilt range. Of course if you don't have a double jump that could be... Very hard if not impossible.

 

[GrabfestBowser]

Okay let's get this straight... the fortress is THE SINGLE reason Bowser is playable at all. It comes off as close to instant as you can get, and it has awesome strength and priority. Yes, I didn't include during clanks if you keep doing it you will win the clank match... with the exception of Peaches downsmash... for that you have to time a dodge out otherwise she will suck you in.

I use the fortress to swap hits with everyone too, that is a key Bowser strategy.

You CAN'T bank on hitting people with the fortress in the air (this is if you're referring to the one that does 33% if done right). It's something you have to set up, and usually the round is done by the time you can grasp that. I would only use the fortress in the air if I knew I could get close to or the full 33% off someone, and in cases like that it's if I am approaching someone like this... I am jumping towards them, and I can put them on sidestepping the instant they are in range for what they think is going to be a Forward Aerial. I don't attack, they sidestep in anticipation, and you hit them with the fortress. And even then depending on the character you are fighting they can sometimes recover and hit you. In cases like this I'd rather just go all the way to the ground - keep in mind that you are fast falling the whole time, so it's not like we're talking lots of frames - and do the fortress from the ground and hit them in the air, where you want them anyway with bowser.

I never sidestep, HARDLY dodge, and never air dodge with him. The only time I CC is when there is a Link or Marth or someone like that off the edge, and you wanna CC their UPb return into a smash, grab, or fortress. I don't really see a use for CC... it's hard to describe how I use Bowser... I kinda go by instinct, there are times I'm jumping constantly, and there are times I'm on the ground a lot, but when I'm on the ground I'm playing defensively unless I'm getting ready to run up to someone and grab them.

Another thing with the Uair, I only use it a few times during play, but I hit with it everytime I use it - not kidding, I miss every once in a GREAT while. I spend the entire four or five stock setting people up for it so that I can get the big kill in at about 70%. I try not to use this move too much because people just don't understand the range it has, and that is a huge asset to a Bowser player.

The peach thing - this is out of my own experience against her... my peach friend is really good with her, and sure, he KNOWS how I play cuz we've been playing each other at college for so long, but it's still effective. I think people underestimate both Bowser's AND Peach's grab (and for peach I'm talkin range).

Anyway, let me know what you think if you want.

Luke

 

[PXTalon2000]

I figure you know how to play Bowser, I was only nitpicking about two things you said
"Fortress isn't all that good except in that situation"
and
"if you use Peach you should never dash attack"

I'm actually pretty certain you know how to play Bowser at least as well as I do. I was just saying... Peach's dash attack is useful in situations where the grab would earn damage on Peach rather than for her... And that the fortress has more uses than ex-shielding and retreating. Thank you for concatenating to my explanation, by the way. All I was explaining, though, were those simple points.

 

[Arash]

I don't really see a use for CC... it's hard to describe how I use Bowser... I kinda go by instinct, there are times I'm jumping constantly, and there are times I'm on the ground a lot, but when I'm on the ground I'm playing defensively unless I'm getting ready to run up to someone and grab them.

that's the thing though... CC is probably the best defensive technique that bowser has, because he doesn't get sent flying by anything until 100%ish.. that, and it's so much easier to edgeguard sweet spotting space animals and fire emblem swordsmen using CC.

another thing, defensive bowser more often than not loses, because the last thing you want is someone to break the defense (which is easier than you give them credit for), and then combo you to 100% (or in shiek's case, death). offensive bowser, however, can trade hits and kill them sooner than he gets killed, which is the only hope he has of winning. also, while being on the ground is nice for the fortress, bowser in the air is when he's the most effective, especially if you can shffl everything you do.

 

[GrabfestBowser]

PX...

The last thing I was doing was being mean, honestly, I apologize if it came off that way... I just came home, answered it really quick, and that was it. Sorry about that bro, if it came off that way. PM me or something if you ever wanna talk, or IM DctrEvil17... and yeah, I should reread everything I write before I submit it, cuz obviously I DO use the Fortress for more than what I originally wrote.

Arash, I was gonna say the same thing in my last post, but for some reason I never got to it. Offensive Bowser is where it's at. You get that first hit in and do your best to follow up, or make the opponent make a mistake. The only time I ever play defensive Bowser is against Ganondorf, because he has no projectiles, and needs to get in to hit you. I fight Ganon exactly like I fight Bowser - though it's MUCH harder cuz his Lcancels make him a beast - I try to make ganon miss, then capitalize on that. When I fight a Ganondorf, it's a whole lot of jumping forward and backward, jumping backward and forward, and occasionally staying grounded anticipating him jumping then dashing in for a grab before he hits the ground. With Bowser when I play defensive it's an awful lot of feigning attacks and flame canceling.

Luke

 

[PowBow67]

Jiggles

Bowser is way good against most Puff players. If you can dodge her down B attack you can get an easy smash on her and usually send her off the screen. You have to be a good dodger though because bowser is a huge target for that move.

 

[GrabfestBowser]

Bowser gets DOMINATED by a good jigglypuff player... she is one of his hardest opponents to beat. A good jigglypuff player will use the wall of pain method on you, eliminating shield grabbing altogether. She edge guards you easily, there is no reason at all why you should ever make it back once you are hit off... you can't compete with all of her jumps, and all she needs to do is sex kick to hit you back out. And even Bowser's Fortress is a risk to use against her because if you don't sweet spot her every time you are getting rested... I seriously have no advice to give against a good jiggly... even exchanging blows with her is difficult because usually I use the fortress, and like I said above, it's hard. The best advice I can give for a jiggly is to keep her above you, as opposed to off to the side. Flame canceling doesn't hit her either. I usually try to short hop the neutral A into Lcancel and HOPE that we each hit each other, but it's hard. If anyone else has any opinions on this give me some advice. I very rarely beat Snex's Jigglypuff, and I have never beaten AOB's Jigglypuff. I usually downsmash when the jigglyplayer tries to sweet spot the edge when coming back off the level cuz you suck her in and she dies up really easily. That's all I got.

Luke

 

[PowBow67]

puffs

I guess I haven't played many top tier Jiggly Puff players. If you're playing against an average puff player that abuses rest you can usually get in some good smashes.

 

[GrabfestBowser]

No big deal... I thought Jiggly was the worst character in the game until I found out about smash boards... that's the point of this forum though, to educate people on the game. It's good ****.

Luke

 

[Falco&Victory]

*UBER BUMP*...
Fun to look back at the glory days of Smashboards back b4 my brother got me banned...

 

[KevinM]

Necrophilia at its finest... its kinda funny too see him talking down on the fortress (luke that is)

 

[St. Viers]

umm...he explains that he isn't. If you are going to comment on a thread (albeit years old) reading carefully might work

 

[everlasting yay]

Lol @ morons bumping a **** near three year old thread

 

[St. Viers]

I agree, but as it was already bumped, I had to point out the stupidity...

 

[KevinM]

No St. Viers though i agree that he doesn't diss the fortress i was commenting on how he says he doesn't like to use it as much at points, and lately it seems like its been an answer to everything at least for me... Please refrain from calling me a moron for a misunderstanding on words ktnxbye

Oh and yea he realized that it was old evergreen, hence the *Uber Bump* read carefully

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'd be really upset and would close this incredibly old thread if i didn't love the things that luke posted here so much. almost all of it still applies.

 

[Arash]

i think that has more to do with bowser's simplicity than anything, though i should go back and edit the part i say i beat ken once and he beat me 30 times after

it's more like 30,000 now

 

[Gimpyfish62]

LOL i read that part and was like "I remember absolutely flipping out hearing that arash beat ken with bowser" haha

good stuff XD